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[1.12.x] Cryogenic Engines: Liquid Hydrogen and Methane Rockets! (Jan 22, 2022)


Nertea

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12 minutes ago, Rakete said:

@Nertea The engine plumes of the Tharsis Engine still not moves correctly with movement of engine gimballing. At least one of them is stuck. Maybe you want to have a look at it?

Issue re-confirmed with newest CE version and newest Waterfall version

Can't reproduce...

screenshot170.pngscreenshot171.png

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8 hours ago, Rakete said:

Anyone else with this problem? Both bells move, but only one plume does.

After a lot of confusion I have determined that the master and dev copies of this on github are different, despite no work being done on it since last release. Probably can cut a new release to solve it. 

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6 hours ago, Nertea said:

After a lot of confusion I have determined that the master and dev copies of this on github are different, despite no work being done on it since last release. Probably can cut a new release to solve it. 

Would be great.  Will test, when a new package is available for download. Maybe someold file found it's way into the package...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think I can see the matrix... Since updating I can see semi-opaque 'plume' cones coming from the cryo engines in the editor.

Edit: Only the Parvonis and Tharsis engines. So possibly already known about.

Edit 2: The blue glowing texture has disconnected from the nozzle and stays in the uncompacted position. It looks normal once the engines are toggled to extend fully.

Edited by LudificorPayne
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1 hour ago, Nertea said:

Why the goddamn hell does this keep getting reverted?

Soo should I wait for a even newer package to test through? (Haven't got sooo much time atm, so multiple testings on the CE engines for further bugs eat much time...) so shall I look through 2.0.5 or rather a properly packaged 2.0.6 without any reverted versions?

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@Nertea It's not impossible that you discovered a glitch in Github itself, hopefully that's not the case but if it is I'm hoping they address it quickly. Maybe something to do with permissions? Could even be a hardware failure on the server-side of things (I have no idea how GitHub hosting works).

I'm just pulling at straws here, but the one thing I do know is that everything happens for a reason. Doesn't matter if you like that reason or not, but as far as the laws of physics are concerned we live in a deterministic universe. On the philosophical side, that means that "free will" is only a concept afforded to us by the fact that we can't know everything at once, but on the practical side it means that your thing keeps getting reverted because something that's supposed to be happening isn't happening.

Whatever it ends up being, I'm using CryoEngines 2.0.3 with a bunch of other mods (including most if not all of your mods) and I don't really have any issues that I've noticed (granted I don't really use the hydrolox engines much, I use Methalox 1st stages and nuclear 2nd stages from Kerbal Atomics), so I'm sticking with what I have until this all blows over and I see a clear benefit to upgrading. This is how I always handle my KSP mods, just because there's an update doesn't mean I MUST upgrade, I mean yes I'll try the upgrade but I'll keep a backup of the old version ready to be re-installed in case there's some new bug or new incompatibility with other mods I'm using.

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Hi Nertea. You are so great! I use all  your mods.

There are a few balance issues I would like to suggest. This is the first one:

  • Raise Tharsis H2 engine's (3.75m) thrust from 360KN to 900Kn (for a final T/W of 200). For comparison, the Ulyses (width 2.5m), with a comarable ISP, has a thrust of 390 (T/W = 173), is 2 tech levels lower and lighter. The Etna (3.75m, same tech level), has a thrust of 2850 (T/W = 248).

I hope this helps.

 

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8 hours ago, PMBell said:

Hi Nertea. You are so great! I use all  your mods.

There are a few balance issues I would like to suggest. This is the first one:

  • Raise Tharsis H2 engine's (3.75m) thrust from 360KN to 900Kn (for a final T/W of 200). For comparison, the Ulyses (width 2.5m), with a comarable ISP, has a thrust of 390 (T/W = 173), is 2 tech levels lower and lighter. The Etna (3.75m, same tech level), has a thrust of 2850 (T/W = 248).

I hope this helps.

 

I think the main thing about the upper stage engines is their ISP, the Tharsis quite a higher ISP if compared to the less "efficient" however more powerfull Ulyses, and the Etna is pratically a sea level engine, so their ISP is much naturally lower.

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7 hours ago, Davi SDF said:

I think the main thing about the upper stage engines is their ISP, the Tharsis quite a higher ISP if compared to the less "efficient" however more powerfull Ulyses, and the Etna is pratically a sea level engine, so their ISP is much naturally lower.

Liquid Hydrogen Engines
Name Stage Size Weight Thrust ISP Tech Level
Hecate Upper 1.25 m 0.55 T 55 KN 110-465 6
Pavonis Upper 1.85 m 1.20 T 169 KN 120-468 6
Ulysses Upper 2.50 m 2.25 T 390 KN 180-458 7
Tharsis Upper 3.75 m 3.00 T 360 KN 125-468 9
Stromboli Lower 0.62 m 0.16 T 40 KN 325-370 5
Vesivius Lower 1.25 m 1.30 T 230 KN 376-425 5
Erebus Lower 1.85 m 2.25 T 550 KN 370-430 5
Fuji Lower 2.50 m 4.60 T 1050 KN 368-422 7
Etna Lower 3.75 m 11.5 T 2850 KN 365-410 9
Liquid Methane Engines
Name Stage Size Weight Thrust ISP Tech Level
Hawk Upper 0.62 m 0.14 12 90-382  
Buzzard Upper 1.25 m 0.70 90 100-375  
Harrier Upper 1.85 m 3.00 300 110-376  
Eagle Upper 2.50 m 4.00 420 150-382  
Vulture Upper 3.75 m 6.50 1000 100-386  
Compsognathus Lower 0.62 m 0.40 85 325-335  
Deinonychus Lower 1.25 m 1.75 460 334-342  
Iguanodon Lower 1.85 m 4.00 1000 327-340  
Allosaur Lower 2.50 m 7.00 1850 330-345  
Tyrannosaur Lower 3.75 m 15.00 4140 334-342  

My point is that, as you can see in the table, the Tharsis serves no purpose, since for a 3.75m upper stage you are better off putting an adapter and using the Ulysses, which is cheaper and even 2 tech levels lower!

I think research should be rewarding, and needs to make other parts obsolete. With all restock, lauch vehicles, H2 engines, etc. there are simply too many engines to keep them all usable as the tech level progresses.

In my opinion, it simply does not have the power for a 3.75m upper stage. In the Editor, with a payload of 15 T (an Elara Command module plus a Hostel Habitation) and enough fuel for dV=2500 -which barely gets anywhere higher than the Mun (depending on the lower stage size)-  it shows a puny thrust to weight ratio of 1.07.

Compare the Tharsis with the other 3.75m upper stages: the 6.5 T, 1000 KN Vulture (methane), the 9 T, 2000 KN Rhino (Stock) or the 5.25 T, 750 KN Corgi (Restock+).

Keeping the same T/W ratio as the Ulysses it should have 520 KN. That is a good point.

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I don't know about stock balance, but the J-2X was supposed to have an ISP of 448 and a thrust of 1,307 kN. If you use the 1/4 thrust heuristic, then you'd get stats of ISP 448, a thrust of 327 kN. I think the engine would still be useful if you nerfed it to an ISP of 448 and a thrust of ~330 - 350kN. Personally, I've noticed that it's a bit overpowered when building Saturn Mk2 replicas in JNSQ (using NFLV and the KR-1 boar for the 1st stage).
 

Edited by Machinique
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On 10/30/2021 at 2:55 PM, PMBell said:

Oh, I hadn't realized that!

Anyway, in my opinion the Tharsis is still useless.

Maybe tweak the Tharsis/Ulysses a bit?

You have the ability to do it yourself in the cfg file, Or make a MM patch

Edited by VCamProbe
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Just a quick suggestion: It would be nice to have some small probe-sized cryo engines. I often build tiny probes like this and it would be really nice to have some smaller engines that are lighter than the current ones. Also, some lower profile engines for landers. It's difficult to build nice lightweight hydrolox powered landers with the normal extensible engine bells.

Edited by ruiluth
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