Nertea

[1.7.x] Cryogenic Engines: igh Isp chemical rockets! (Updated September 11)

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Did a minimal test with only Cryogenic Engines 0.6.2 from SpaceDock, same result. Also alt+click copy spawns new tank under the VAB floor. Problem could be with B9PartSwitch, posted also there.

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uoancm5gc71sgg1/output_log_min.zip?dl=0

Spoiler

 

Relevant log.

miniFuelTank
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/DebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 51)

[Part miniFuelTank] [ModuleB9PartSwitch 'fuelSwitch'] Switched subtype to LF/O
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/DebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 51)

ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[PartResource].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at DictionaryValueList`2[System.Int32,PartResource].At (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at PartResourceList.get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at Part.OnCopy (.Part original, Boolean asSymCounterpart) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at EditorLogic.createSymmetry (Int32 mode, .Attachment attach) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at EditorLogic.<SetupFSM>m__D () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()
  at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()
  at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()
  at KerbalFSM.UpdateFSM () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at EditorLogic.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lathari said:

Not EEX, I had the same problem with no EEX. What i remember I had debug log full of "ArgumentOutOfRangeException: parameter name index" or something in that style. These occurred near B9PartSwitch LF/O configs. After removing semi-random mods and re-installing CryoTanks via CKAN, problem has disappeared. 

Now the B9PartSwitch is not working or something, Cryotanks are rendered with both foil and icosahedra and fuel tanks have no fuel sliders.

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wct4j20kvs1cc3w/output_log.zip?dl=0

Edit: After manually re-installing B9PartSwitch, the problem came back.

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yfg4r3w83lmtq6d/output_log_2.zip?dl=0

Thanks.  I'm looking into this.  It seems to have something to do with the new delta-v simulation code expecting the resources to be in a particular state.  I agree that it has nothing to do with Editor Extensions.

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Im new to using this mod, after installing it has changed some of the engines and i have a patch for one of the mods i used but its still has a liquid fuel engine attached to it.
Im talking about the Space Shuttle Main Engine, the KS 25 from the stock game and RS 25 from Cormorant Aeronology

is this correct or has something broken while i was installing this mod. i didnt want stock engines changed but i was wanted a Liquid hydrogen setup on my sts so this is cool even tho i wasnt expecting it 

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On 10/29/2018 at 6:28 AM, xD-FireStriker said:

Im new to using this mod, after installing it has changed some of the engines and i have a patch for one of the mods i used but its still has a liquid fuel engine attached to it.
Im talking about the Space Shuttle Main Engine, the KS 25 from the stock game and RS 25 from Cormorant Aeronology

 is this correct or has something broken while i was installing this mod. i didnt want stock engines changed but i was wanted a Liquid hydrogen setup on my sts so this is cool even tho i wasnt expecting it 

Sorry not quite clear here - you have a mod with an engine that has been patched to use LH2, but it still has an LF engine on it after patching as well?

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On 11/3/2018 at 5:11 AM, Nertea said:

Sorry not quite clear here - you have a mod with an engine that has been patched to use LH2, but it still has an LF engine on it after patching as well?

 

On 11/4/2018 at 12:47 PM, xD-FireStriker said:

Yep the one engine uses both LH2 and LF as well as having 2 different exhaust plumes depending on what fuel its using 

Im not too sure whats going on my self, i remove the patch file for the SSME Cormorant Aeronology adds and the stock KS 25 now uses LF and Ox instead of LH2 and Ox

I think maybe something screwy is going on with the patch file

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Minor update, mainly to bump the bundled B9PS which contains a major issue and to lose the actual MiniAVC dll 

CE v0.6.3

  •  Updated CryoTanks to 1.0.3
  •  Updated B9PartSwitch to 2.4.5
  •  Removed MiniAVC distribution

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Any idea how to go about patching the small "Cub"-vernier engine to dual mode? What should the ISP and thrust be with LH2/Ox? Any other engine to rip-off the stats or to use as template?

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Hi! There is a lot of warnings in log on KSP loading, like this: 

Spoiler

[LOG 22:08:17.764] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'CryoTanks/Parts/HydrogenTanks/hydrogen-inline/hydrogen-25-1/hydrogen-25-1'
[WRN 22:08:17.772] PartLoader Warning: Variable LH2 not found in Part
[WRN 22:08:17.772] PartLoader Warning: Variable massOffset not found in Part
[WRN 22:08:17.772] PartLoader Warning: Variable costOffset not found in Part

 

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@GRAleX I also see this in my log, but the MM cache also says there is

		LH2 = 48000

so that variable exists.

Perhaps some patching order problem?

Or new B9PartSwitch?

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@Nertea I was able to get rid of one of my warnings for the B9 fuelSwitch duplicate entries by adding the following in CryoTanks\Patches\CryoTanksFuelTankSwitcher.cfg

Under the // ZBO tanks..

    !RESOURCE[LqdHydrogen] {}
    // added the line below
    !MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch]:HAS[#moduleID[fuelSwitch]] {}

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleB9PartSwitch
        moduleID = fuelSwitch
 

I figured that must be what was causing the warning, as the prior modification has the same thing.

Thanks for the great mods!

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Hey all, love @Nertea's mods and this is no exception. But looking at the text on the first page I have some questions.

"They're more expensive and produce less thrust per unitweight. In addition, liquid hydrogen is less dense than liquid fuel, so for the same Delta-V, you will need more tank volume." 

These being the case, I am wondering about the actual use case VS efficiency of these engines. The cryo engines have higher isp than the regular LF/O engines but requires more tankage for the same Delta-V. But if I'm adding more tanks anyway, doesn't that negate their higher efficiency? 

As I understand it, the normal trade off for high isp is lower TWR. But these engines seem to have the generally lower TWR but also requires more fuel storage for the same Delta-V... Or I am missing something that is obvious to others. I would appreciate any insight!

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3 hours ago, Idleness said:

Hey all, love @Nertea's mods and this is no exception. But looking at the text on the first page I have some questions.

"They're more expensive and produce less thrust per unitweight. In addition, liquid hydrogen is less dense than liquid fuel, so for the same Delta-V, you will need more tank volume." 

These being the case, I am wondering about the actual use case VS efficiency of these engines. The cryo engines have higher isp than the regular LF/O engines but requires more tankage for the same Delta-V. But if I'm adding more tanks anyway, doesn't that negate their higher efficiency? 

As I understand it, the normal trade off for high isp is lower TWR. But these engines seem to have the generally lower TWR but also requires more fuel storage for the same Delta-V... Or I am missing something that is obvious to others. I would appreciate any insight!

They need tanks with a higher volume, not mass, around 4x more, and 8x more with you are using only LH2 (for nuclear engines).

Look at this infographic of Saturn V, the first stage make around 50% of the rocket volume, but have around 80% the weight. That's because it uses Kerosene and O2 (what the Liquid Fuel and Oxidizer in KSP best represents), and the upper stages uses mostly LH2 and O2, having a lower density. 

saturn-v-color-cut-away-sm.jpg

270px-STS120LaunchHiRes-edit1.jpg

Another example is the Shuttle. The orange tank (with LH2 and O2) weights around 760t, while both SRBs weights 1180t, being much smaller in volume. You can also compare the apparency and weight of Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy, to habituate better to the ideia.

This additional volume impose some challenges, and allows for you to use the bigger rocket parts more often. One advantage I noted is in the reentry (SpaceX style), they slow faster with the atm.  

Hope that helps :D

Edited by MaximumThrust

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If I understand you correctly then, I need to examine the mass of the part combos a little more closely.  Volume for volume, if I put LH2/O in a tank it has less mass then the exact same tank but that has LF/O in it?  I've never noticed this; however, if that's the case then I understand what you're saying.  Greater volume of fuel required but potentially same (or less, or only slightly more) mass.

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17 minutes ago, Idleness said:

If I understand you correctly then, I need to examine the mass of the part combos a little more closely.

You got it.

Size is not a factor in delta V, only Isp and the ratio of wet mass to dry mass. dv = 9.80665 * Isp * ln(wet mass / dry mass). Cryo works best when delta V needs are higher and TWR needs are lower, since adding engines to get more thrust will hurt the mass ratio and offset the Isp gains. In addition a bigger but lighter second stage means the first stage can be smaller, or the payload can be increased.

For the same delta V, if the second and third stages of that Saturn V were Kerosene/Oxygen they would smaller. But the whole thing would be well over 2 million pounds heavier and need a much larger first stage with 7 or 8 F1s to get off the ground.

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I've been using this mod for my Energia-type shuttle launch vehicle, along with a bunch of other NF parts. I have LH engines on the core and LF engines on the side boosters.

b5xHlHE.png

I also made this comparison slideshow to demonstrate the differences between engine types: https://imgur.com/a/U33rjq6

 

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@sturmhauke boiloff is not that bad as a factor when a tank is used for launching - only when you want to save your LH2 for months later it becomes an issue.

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Yeah, I figured that out later; that screenshot is a couple months old. I should probably update the text.

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Cryogenic Engines 0.6.4

  • KSP 1.6.x
  • Updated ModuleManager to 3.1.3
  • Updated CryoTanks to 1.1.0
  • Updated B9PartSwitch to 2.6.0
  • Updated DynamicBatteryStorage to 1.4.0
  • Updated DeployableEngines to 1.0.0
  • Minor change to licensing of code/configs (MIT now)
  • Fixed EngineLight patch (thanks Nightside101010)
  • Renamed CryoEnginesMarkIV to CryoEnginesNFAero for accuracy

Important thing - the sub-plugins (CryoTanks, DeployableEngines and DynamicBatteryStorage) are now fully qualified mods with versioning and such. This means that quite shortly, CKAN will be supported.

Also please note the removal of the Dropbox D/L. It was annoying to update, if you want you can now get it from the Github releases page.

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