Nertea

[1.7.x] Cryogenic Engines: igh Isp chemical rockets! (Updated September 11)

Recommended Posts

The problem with a 0.625m engine is that there's nothing out there to base it off. The only engines which might be that small are Chinese YF-73 and YF-75. Not only are they used in clusters anyway, good info on them (including exact dimensions) is scarce.

@Nertea Splendid work on the engines. Just make sure not to overdo the blue. :) I think the way it's currently done is just right. Can't wait to try those out in combination with NFLV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

Will the new models for previous engines substitute automatically on existing craft or are they going to be new part names?

New part names, I want to be able to be a bit flexible with dimensions.

17 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

I'm loving the detail (and holding my breath on the RAM impact).  Looking forward to this update.

Shouldn't be... awful. Maybe 2x the current footprint at most, but you will get more models 

17 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

 Also, any 0.625m LHO engine in the works, comparable to the KA Eel?  Small craft and probes could use some cryo love...

If there is space on the relevant texture sheet I might do the RL-10-A5 as a small thing. We'll see. 

 

Also I did a really stupid thing and accidentally triggered a release for a WIP thing. 

0.7.0 is not a thing. I will roll it back when I can but it's less easy than I'd hope.

Edited by Nertea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Nertea said:

Also I did a really stupid thing and accidentally triggered a release for a WIP thing. 

0.7.0 is not a thing. I will roll it back when I can but it's less easy than I'd hope.

Oh, that explains it.

* me looking at numbers in CryoEnginesRestock patches two days ago:

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should be fixed now, there's a 0.7.1 that reverts those changes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Nertea said:

It should be fixed now, there's a 0.7.1 that reverts those changes. 

Other than dependencies, no change from 0.6.whatever?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Nightside said:

Other than dependencies, no change from 0.6.whatever?

Nope. Just needed to be done because aside from Git rollbacks don't really work for the usual download providers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nertea said:

Nope. Just needed to be done because aside from Git rollbacks don't really work for the usual download providers. 

You mean you aren’t going just roll out half finished updates based on an arbitrary schedule? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/15/2019 at 6:53 PM, Deimos Rast said:

@Nertea

https://github.com/ChrisAdderley/CryoEngines/issues/56


#LOC_CryoTanks_ModuleCryoTank_Action_DisableAction - Disable Cooling

It'll be fixed in the next release of CryoTanks, because it is a CryoTanks bug. 

Some more update on the revamp:

This is the all-new Stromboli, a tiny sustainer-type engine based on the RL-10-A5 developed for the DC-X program. It comes in 0.625m boattail, 0.625m ring and compact variants.

stromboli1.PNG

stromboli2.PNG

Next up is the Hecate, which replaces the Chelyabinsk. It still has the extensible nozzle and is based on the RL-10-B-2, everyone's favorite kitchen appliance. 

hecate.PNG

heacte2.PNG

Continuing with the new Pavonis, a 1.875m vacuum engine based roughly on the RL-60 engine. It comes in ringed and compact variants and also has an extensible nozzle. 

pavonis1.PNG

pavonis2.PNG

The Pavonis returns as a cluster in the Tharsis, which replaces the Yucutan engine. It comes in 3.75m and compact variants. It keeps that handy extending nozzle. 

tharsis1.PNG

tharsis2.PNG

tharsis3.PNG

tharsis4.PNG

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Nertea said:

This is the all-new Stromboli, a tiny sustainer-type engine based on the RL-10-A5 developed for the DC-X program. It comes in 0.625m boattail, 0.625m ring and compact variants.

The rest are lovely, but this one is kind of weird. It's far too expanded, the nozzle on the real thing has a completely different profile:
RL-10A-5.jpg

Is that shape doable, or would it hopelessly distort the textures (I assume there isn't much room left in the atlas)? If not, don't worry too much, though. The real engine, with its expansion ratio of 4.3, is firmly in the booster class. A sustainer would, presumably, have a nozzle closer (though maybe a bit narrower) than what you modeled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Nertea said:

This is the all-new Stromboli, a tiny sustainer-type engine based on the RL-10-A5 developed for the DC-X program. It comes in 0.625m boattail, 0.625m ring and compact variants.

 stromboli1.PNG


There's nothing to judge the sense of scale using just the image alone: Yet I know it's an adorably smoll little engine.

But can you explain the choice of the boattail design to me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm hoping someone can explain how to best use these engines. I have unlocked the Volcano, but can not find an instance where it is better than the Swivel or Reliant engines.

If I make a basic ship with just a command pod with a fuel tanks and and reliant engine, it weighs 4.4 tonnes with 1820m/s dV, while if I use a ship with the Volcano engine with 2 LH2 fuel tanks, I get a ship at 5.3 tonnes with 1583m/s dV. I have experimented with various amounts of fuel and at no point was the Volcano worth using.

I can only assume I am doing something wrong, so could someone shed some light on what is going on? Do I need to remove some oxidiser?

 

Edit: So apparently I need to change the LH2/Oxidizer ratio, what is the best way to balance this properly?

Edited by Spagoose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Spagoose said:

I'm hoping someone can explain how to best use these engines. I have unlocked the Volcano, but can not find an instance where it is better than the Swivel or Reliant engines.

If I make a basic ship with just a command pod with a fuel tanks and and reliant engine, it weighs 4.4 tonnes with 1820m/s dV, while if I use a ship with the Volcano engine with 2 LH2 fuel tanks, I get a ship at 5.3 tonnes with 1583m/s dV. I have experimented with various amounts of fuel and at no point was the Volcano worth using.

I can only assume I am doing something wrong, so could someone shed some light on what is going on? Do I need to remove some oxidiser?

 

Edit: So apparently I need to change the LH2/Oxidizer ratio, what is the best way to balance this properly?

These types of engines are best used as upper stages with far more dV - since they have more isp and LH2 is bulkier but lighter, the upper stage will be lighter. In turn, that means you can use smaller boosters to put it in orbit. But yes, they are a bit of a niche engine. I sometimes use them for ore tankers as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Spagoose said:

I'm hoping someone can explain how to best use these engines.

For mass savings. 

They're bad if you want to save on size, but the fuel is rather light. So while the tank for the same amount of deltaV would be larger,  it would be far lighter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2019 at 10:53 AM, GrandProtectorDark said:


There's nothing to judge the sense of scale using just the image alone: Yet I know it's an adorably smoll little engine.

But can you explain the choice of the boattail design to me?

It is not a great engine to do a small boattail along because of how the pipes go. Check out how the DCX was laid out.

On 7/20/2019 at 12:40 AM, Spagoose said:

I'm hoping someone can explain how to best use these engines. I have unlocked the Volcano, but can not find an instance where it is better than the Swivel or Reliant engines.

If I make a basic ship with just a command pod with a fuel tanks and and reliant engine, it weighs 4.4 tonnes with 1820m/s dV, while if I use a ship with the Volcano engine with 2 LH2 fuel tanks, I get a ship at 5.3 tonnes with 1583m/s dV. I have experimented with various amounts of fuel and at no point was the Volcano worth using.

I can only assume I am doing something wrong, so could someone shed some light on what is going on? Do I need to remove some oxidiser?

 

Edit: So apparently I need to change the LH2/Oxidizer ratio, what is the best way to balance this properly?

There are a lot of resources in this thread. Here are a couple of recent posts.

 

Two more engines have been completed this weekend, leaving only one. 

This is the Fuji, a replacement for the current Odin. The Odin was based on the LE-7, which is now the Skipper in Restock, so I've used its successor the LE-9 as inspiration. The Fuji comes in Compact, 2.5m and boattail variants.

le9-1.PNG

le9-2.PNG

The Mars is being replaced by the Etna. It's effectively the same though, still based on the RS-68. It comes in Compact, 3.75m and boattail variants. 

rs68-1.PNG

rs68-2.PNG

Edited by Nertea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok last one then we can sleep, the Ulysses, replaces the Tunguska, based on the J-2X (real one, not that silly other one @CobaltWolf dug up :P ). Comes n 2.5m and compact variants. 

j2x-1.PNG

j2x-2.PNG

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone confirm stock fuel cells can run with H2/oxidizer? They show me a button in VAB to select fuel type, but in flight they do nothing when set that way. I hesitate to say there's a bug or if its just me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 7/22/2019 at 2:05 PM, rhoark said:

Can anyone confirm stock fuel cells can run with H2/oxidizer? They show me a button in VAB to select fuel type, but in flight they do nothing when set that way. I hesitate to say there's a bug or if its just me.

There shouldn't be a select button or anything, just new 'start fuel cell' options with LH2. Maybe a mod interaction?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

iOlGMTk.png

Holy enormous update batman! Check out the beautiful update gallery, with screeshots courtesy of @Zorg and @Rock3tman_.

CryoEngines 1.0.0

  •  Updated B9PartSwitch to 2.8.1
  •  Updated DynamicBatteryStorage to 2.0.2
    •  Added support for GenericFieldDataHandler - a simple plug and play handler for other mods to use
    •  Fixed FissionFlowRadiator adding heat to the simulation instead of removing it
    •  Fixed two instances of null reference exceptions when switching vessels/scenes
  •  Updated DeployableEngines to 1.1.0
    •  Added new ModuleAdvancedLookAtConstraint module
    •  Version of basic FXModuleLookConstraint with the addition of viewing vector stability
    •  Tries (mostly successfully) to ensure a constrained object's up vector (green transform in unity) matches the up vector of the target object, which resolves problems with almost vertical/vertical gimbal pistons
    •  Same syntax for configs as FXModuleLookConstraint (see GitHub wiki for more details)
  • Updated CryoTanks to 1.2.0
    • Fixed a localization typo
    •  Tuned VAB UI part tooltip fields for boiloff module
    •  Reworked textures of foil tanks to match Restock and Near Future Construction
    •  Normalized grey to be similar to all my other mods
    •  Recompressed all textures with better compression algorithm
    •  Added optional simplistic draft Liquid Methane support
      •  Slightly cryogenic (1/10th the boiloff rate of Liquid Hydrogen)
      •  Similar mass ratio to Liquid Fuel (9)
      •  Higher cost ratio compared to Liquid Fuel (0.12 vs 0.1)
      •  Enabled by declaring any MM patch with :FOR[CryoTanksMethalox] or including a folder in GameData called CryoTanksMethalox
  •  Soft-deprecated entire old set of CryoEngines parts; they are replaced but invisible so people have time to adapt
  •  New 0.625m engine:
    •  CR-10A 'Stromboli' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Sustainer engine based on updated hypothetical DC-X RL-10-A5. 0.625m, Boattail and Compact variants
  •  Revised 1.25m engines
    •  CR-2 'Vesuvius' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Sustainer engine based on Ariane Vulcain 2. 1.25m, Boattail and Compact variants. Similar to old Volcano.
    •  CE-10 'Hecate' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Vacuum engine with extensible nozzle based on RL-10-C2. 1.25m and Compact variants. Similar to old Chelyabinsk.
  •  New 1.875m engines
    •  CR-0120 'Erebus' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Sustainer engine based on Energia RD-0120. 1.875m, Boattail and Compact variants.
    •  CE-60 'Pavonis' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Vacuum engine with extensible nozzle based on unflown RL-60. 1.875 and Compact variants.
  •  Revised 2.5m engines
    •  CR-9 'Fuji' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Sustainer engine based on JAXA LE-9. 2.5m, Boattail and Compact variants. Similar to old Odin.
    •  CE-2X 'Ulysses' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Vacuum engine based on Constellation J2-X. 2.5m and Compact variants. Similar to old Tunguska.
  •  Revised 3.75m engines
    •  CR-68 'Etna' Cryogenic Rocket Engine: Sustainer engine based on Delta IV RS-68. 3.75m, Boattail and Compact variants. Similar to old Mars.
    •  CE-602 'Tharsis' Cryogenic Engine Cluster: Vacuum engine cluster with extensible nozzles based on alternate Constellation upper stage option. 3.75m and Compact variants.
  •  Restock style engine effect model and emissives propagated to all new parts
  •  New plumes for all engines
  •  RealPlume support for new plumes, courtesy of Zorg
  •  Slightly tuned most revised engines in terms of mass, thrust and Isp compared to their predecessors
  •  CryoEnginesLFO Extras package has been tuned to match the new content (typically 70s of Isp loss)
  •  New Extras package: CryoEnginesRestock
    •  Adapts the appropriate ReStock and ReStockPlus engines into cryogenic engines (Vector, Mammoth, Rhino, Skipper, Corgi, Skiff/Caravel) with significant balance changes
    •  Changes the plume for the Rhino, Skiff/Caravel and Skipper to be appropriately cryogenic

Hey look, I defined this as feature complete! This means new development is unlikely to occur. Because of the scope of this update, I do expect some bugs though, so report away!

I'm also looking at adding optional support for LCH4 engines as you can see from the changelog. I'd appreciate any feedback the community might have for this in terms of mass ratio and volume ration - it is a fuel that is somewhere between LF/O and LH2/O in terms of volume and cryogenic properties. 

Edited by Nertea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Congrats on this major update @Nertea! Seeing one of my all time fav mods come up to the reStock standard is pure perfection! Difficult to pick a favourite but the new LE9/Fuji in particular is beastly (I'm talking about the looks even more than performance :) )

NmDWVw1h.png

Edited by Zorg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Zorg said:

Congrats on this major update @Nertea! Seeing one of my all time fav mods come up to the reStock standard is pure perfection! Difficult to pick a favourite but the new LE9/Fuji in particular is beastly (I'm talking about the looks even more than performance :) )

Yeah the difference in engine styles between various national programs is pretty clear! The Vulcain/Vinci have very specific styles (nice symmetry and well laid out control gimbals), as do the JAXA engines (big pipes!) - compare with the chaotic pipe and wire messes that are Russian engines, and the less chaotic but still maze-like American engines. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Nertea said:

 

I'm also looking at adding optional support for LCH4 engines as you can see from the changelog. I'd appreciate any feedback the community might have for this in terms of mass ratio and volume ration - it is a fuel that is somewhere between LF/O and LH2/O in terms of volume and cryogenic properties. 

Is that for NFLV engines, or are you planning new models? As far as RL engines go, there isn't much to add besides what you already modeled for NFLV, but there's just one you missed... the RD-0146. :) 
LM10-MIRA.jpg
Or, more specifically, the RD-0146CH, which was RD-0146 converted to run on LCH4 (as opposed to LH2 of the original). It should also have an extendable nozzle (the first ones are concepts for the LH2 version, but it's close enough):
RD-0146D.jpg
VUS-MYRA.jpg
While a Russian engine, the MYRA stage it was supposed to fly on (dunno if that's still the case) was for an upgraded version of the ESA Vega rocket. I would put it at the niche currently occupied by RS-18 in NFLV, while scaling the latter down to 0.625m (which would be more accurate, IRL it's basically an LMAE).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loving the new update! Finally I have a reason to use these parts haha. Seeing everything at reStock standards has been a real treat for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After updating, I get a bunch of MM errors in CryoEngines/Patches/RealPlume/CryoEngines1875Lower.cfg, CryoEngines375LowerRed_Prefab.cfg, and CryoEnginesUpperBlue.cfg.  They all generally look like this one:

[LOG 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] :AFTER[ZREALPLUME] pass
[LOG 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Looping on CryoEngines/Patches/RealPlume/CryoEngines1875Lower/@PART[*]:HAS[@PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]]:AFTER[zRealPlume]:NEEDS[SmokeScreen] to CryoEngines/Parts/Engine/0625/cryoengine-stromboli-1.cfg/PART
[LOG 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Applying update CryoEngines/Patches/RealPlume/CryoEngines1875Lower/@PART[*]:HAS[@PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]]:AFTER[zRealPlume]:NEEDS[SmokeScreen] to CryoEngines/Parts/Engine/0625/cryoengine-stromboli-1.cfg/PART
[WRN 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Cannot find key plumeIdentifier in PLUME
[ERR 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Error - Cannot parse variable search when inserting new key plumeIdentifier = #$/PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]/plumeIdentifier$
[WRN 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Cannot find key plumeIdentifier in PLUME
[ERR 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Error - Cannot parse variable search when inserting new key name = #$/PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]/plumeIdentifier$-plume
[WRN 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Cannot find key plumeIdentifier in PLUME
[ERR 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Error - Cannot parse variable search when inserting new key name = #$/PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]/plumeIdentifier$-plume2
[WRN 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Cannot find key plumeIdentifier in PLUME
[ERR 2019-07-27 02:11:37.162] Error - Cannot parse variable search when inserting new key name = #$/PLUME[CryoEngines1875Lower]:HAS[~processed[*]]/plumeIdentifier$-audio

The PLUME nodes are added by EngineConfigs.cfg in the same directory, and indeed, they don't have plumeIdentifier keys.

No mods installed except CryoEngines and RealPlume-Stock (and the dependencies bundled with each).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.