Nertea

[1.9.x] Cryogenic Engines: High Isp chemical rockets! (February 20, 2020)

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On 28/11/2017 at 10:57 PM, Nertea said:

Like disabling the tank icon or something?

I meant cutting the fuel supply of the tank, you know, by clicking on this green triangle.

Anyway, I'm not convinced Editor Extensions was the culprit either... I'm at a loss, :confused:

Will try with the new version of NFT Solar, see if that works better.  

Thanks again.

Edited by Hardcard

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Small update to fix WBI conflict and bump some bundled dependencies

CE 0.5.11

  •  Updated MM to 3.0.1
  •  Updated B9PartSwitch to 2.1.0
  •  Updated CryoTanks to 0.4.9
    •  Deconflict new WBI fuel switcher

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@Nertea, @Streetwind: are there any balance guidelines for Isp of LFO vs. LH2+O engines?  I'm writing a patch to convert an engine (from another mod) from one to the other, and I'd like to try to adjust the atmosphereCurve in a sensible way.

I looked at the Extras/CryoEnginesLFO patch for guidelines, and it has a comment at the top that says it adjusts everything by 30, but that's not actually true — the adjustments range from as low as 30 to as high as 55.  I don't know if those variations are intentional, or the result of engines being rebalanced and the CryoEnginesLFO patch not being updated to match.

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The balance considerations I would choose* here are:

- LH2 tanks are worse than LF tanks. In other words, the rocket has more dry mass for the same amount of wet mass. The engine's Isp should be able to compensate that for typical mass fractions.
- Hydrolox engines are generally weighted towards less TWR, more efficiency. So you are allowed to improve the Isp a bit above what the line above would consider sensible - but you have to give up some thrust for it, or add some engine mass.
- As a technology higher up the tech tree, hydrolox engines should cost more per kN of thrust produced than LFO engines. In return, they can again gain a little bit of extra Isp.

Ultimately though, the engine must have a useful niche in which it "feels right". No matter how carefully calculated your selection of stats is - if they mean that nobody would use the engine, they're "wrong". And that is often a fairly subjective thing.

 

(* I don't know if that's the exact model Nertea follows for CryoEngines.)

Edited by Streetwind

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18 hours ago, Wyzard said:

@Nertea, @Streetwind: are there any balance guidelines for Isp of LFO vs. LH2+O engines?  I'm writing a patch to convert an engine (from another mod) from one to the other, and I'd like to try to adjust the atmosphereCurve in a sensible way.

I looked at the Extras/CryoEnginesLFO patch for guidelines, and it has a comment at the top that says it adjusts everything by 30, but that's not actually true — the adjustments range from as low as 30 to as high as 55.  I don't know if those variations are intentional, or the result of engines being rebalanced and the CryoEnginesLFO patch not being updated to match.

I'm not very good at maintaining the text at the top of the files, I think the numbers are right in the file, not the description. Don't really have a great method, the original balance work I did was by feel and not systematic, because I never really considered that patch a canonical part of CE.

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Do you guys think it's a good ideia to simple prune most of the stock engines, and use the ones from this mod (using the LF patch) and NF-LV? The textures and models are much better, and it also seems more balanced.

As much as I loved the Terrier and Poodle, I'm not seeing any reason to occupy my load time and parts list with the stock ones...

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Anyone have issues getting this mod to load to the main menu with RO/RP-O/FAR ? It stops at the 'cryoengine-125-2' part

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

 

[LOG 09:55:21.775] PartLoader: Part 'CryoEngines/Parts/Engine/cryoengine-125/cryoengine-125-1/cryoengine-125-1' has no database record. Creating.
[LOG 09:55:21.783] DragCubeSystem: Creating drag cubes for part 'cryoengine-125-1'
[LOG 09:55:21.834] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'CryoEngines/Parts/Engine/cryoengine-125/cryoengine-125-2/cryoengine-125-2'
[LOG 09:55:21.837] *U* Ullage constructor called on cryoengine-125-2
[LOG 09:55:21.843] *RFMEC* ERROR: could not find configs definition for cryoengine-125-2-1
[LOG 09:55:21.844] *RFMEC* ERROR: could not find configs definition for cryoengine-125-2-1
[ERR 09:55:21.844] *RFMEC* ERROR Can't find configuration LqdHydrogen+LqdOxygen, falling back to first tech-available config.

[ERR 09:55:21.845] *RFMEC* ERROR could not find configuration of name LqdHydrogen+LqdOxygen and could find no fallback config.
For part cryoengine-125-2, Current nodes:


[ERR 09:55:21.847] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'ModuleTagHydrolox'

[LOG 09:55:21.940] PartLoader: Part 'CryoEngines/Parts/Engine/cryoengine-125/cryoengine-125-2/cryoengine-125-2' has no database record. Creating.
[LOG 09:55:21.970] DragCubeSystem: Creating drag cubes for part 'cryoengine-125-2'
[EXC 09:55:22.020] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	RealFuels.ModuleEngineConfigs.TLTInfo ()
	RealFuels.ModuleEngineConfigs.GetInfo ()
	PartLoader.CompilePartInfo (.AvailablePart newPartInfo, .Part part)
	PartLoader+<CompileParts>c__Iterator66.MoveNext ()
	UnityEngine.SetupCoroutine.InvokeMoveNext (IEnumerator enumerator, IntPtr returnValueAddress)
[LOG 09:56:34.643] MiniAVC -> Starter was destroyed.
[LOG 09:56:34.643] MiniAVC -> FirstRunGui was destroyed.
[LOG 09:56:34.685] [DeadlyReentry.DRToolBar] OnDestroy() called - destroying button
[LOG 09:56:34.691] MiniAVC -> Starter was destroyed.
[EXC 09:56:34.698] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	PopupDialog.OnDestroy ()

 

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I had that problem, I cant recall how i fixed it, but am pretty sure it was related to cryo-tanks, and some texture/model not being located.  I believe it just went away after removing the cryo tanks folder (since i use the LFO patch anyway)

 

I'm sorry, i know that probably doesnt help.  but maybe it will help get you in the right direction.

Edited by TK421d

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To everyone that does not use the patch to convert the engines to liquid fuel, how is the experience going?

I really wanted to use them with LH2, but I think that will bring many problems and incompatibilities with other mods, and maybe some unnecessary complexity to the game. I don't know what to do.

For now I spotted problems with OPT and Modular Fuel Tanks. OPT is manageable, but my Space Planes will be limited to LF only, and will not be able to make combos with nukes. MFT does not work, and I really like being able to adjust proportions of LF and Ox in Space Planes SSTOs and other applications. Also there isn't a RCS for LH2/Ox, only one adapted from Near Future Propulsion, that shares the same model than the lithium RCS, and runs with LH2 alone. And the vacuum tanks can be exploited to be used in the atmosphere, if them don't heat too much.

Do you think using LH2 worth the trouble, or prefer to simply go with the abstract Liquid Fuel?

Thanks!

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9 hours ago, MaximumThrust said:

To everyone that does not use the patch to convert the engines to liquid fuel, how is the experience going?

I really wanted to use them with LH2, but I think that will bring many problems and incompatibilities with other mods, and maybe some unnecessary complexity to the game. I don't know what to do.

For now I spotted problems with OPT and Modular Fuel Tanks. OPT is manageable, but my Space Planes will be limited to LF only, and will not be able to make combos with nukes. MFT does not work, and I really like being able to adjust proportions of LF and Ox in Space Planes SSTOs and other applications. Also there isn't a RCS for LH2/Ox, only one adapted from Near Future Propulsion, that shares the same model than the lithium RCS, and runs with LH2 alone. And the vacuum tanks can be exploited to be used in the atmosphere, if them don't heat too much.

Do you think using LH2 worth the trouble, or prefer to simply go with the abstract Liquid Fuel?

Thanks!

As for spaceplanes, I've copied the cutlass LH2 patch to create a copy of the stock rapier engines which use LH2/LH2-Oxydizer instead of the generic Liquid Fuel.

However, since an LH2 spaceplane will be huge, you may prefer to download the Mark IV System mod and use the patch to make the Cutlass engine (basically, a 2.5m rapier) use LH2 instead.

Here's the patch for LH2 rapiers
 

// Rapier LH
// Juanml82

+PART[RAPIER]
{
    @mass = 1.8
    @name = LHRapier
    @title = Hydrogen Rapier
    @description = In an attempt to match fuels to the advanced nuclear thermal engines, C7 Aerospace and Rockomax Conglomerates redisigned their famed "Rapier" engine to work with liquid hydrogen instead. They just hope it works.


@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[!PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]]   {
  @maxThrust = 100
        @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
        {
            @name = LqdHydrogen
            @ratio = 1.0
        }
        @PROPELLANT[IntakeAir]
        {
            @ratio = 0.35
        }
        !atmosphereCurve {}
    atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 3800 0 0
        }
    }
    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]]   {
    @maxThrust = 170
        @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
        {
            @name = LqdHydrogen
            @ratio = 1.5
        }
        @PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
        {
            @name = Oxidizer
            @ratio = 0.1
        }
        !atmosphereCurve {}
        atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 450
            key = 0.4 400
            key = 1 300
            key = 10 120
        }
    }
}

 

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@Nertea, I'd like to request a new 0.625m LH2/Ox engine in the 20-30kN (vac) class, similar to the NV-10 Eel, to complement the Volcano at tech level 4. Target application is landers for airless moons, so an extensible nozzle for maximal ISP would probably not be required.  I've submitted a GitHub request for tracking purposes.

Edited by KSPrynk

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3 hours ago, juanml82 said:

As for spaceplanes, I've copied the cutlass LH2 patch to create a copy of the stock rapier engines which use LH2/LH2-Oxydizer instead of the generic Liquid Fuel.

However, since an LH2 spaceplane will be huge, you may prefer to download the Mark IV System mod and use the patch to make the Cutlass engine (basically, a 2.5m rapier) use LH2 instead.

Here's the patch for LH2 rapiers
 


// Rapier LH
// Juanml82

+PART[RAPIER]
{
    @mass = 1.8
    @name = LHRapier
    @title = Hydrogen Rapier
    @description = In an attempt to match fuels to the advanced nuclear thermal engines, C7 Aerospace and Rockomax Conglomerates redisigned their famed "Rapier" engine to work with liquid hydrogen instead. They just hope it works.


@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[!PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]]   {
  @maxThrust = 100
        @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
        {
            @name = LqdHydrogen
            @ratio = 1.0
        }
        @PROPELLANT[IntakeAir]
        {
            @ratio = 0.35
        }
        !atmosphereCurve {}
    atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 3800 0 0
        }
    }
    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]]   {
    @maxThrust = 170
        @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
        {
            @name = LqdHydrogen
            @ratio = 1.5
        }
        @PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
        {
            @name = Oxidizer
            @ratio = 0.1
        }
        !atmosphereCurve {}
        atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 450
            key = 0.4 400
            key = 1 300
            key = 10 120
        }
    }
}

 

Thanks for the info! I already knew the Cutlass Engine and the patch, even made some SSTOs with it! Now that you said, I think that Mk4 really fits better the LH2, all my spaceplanes using Mk4 and LF become too short and stub. I can use only the Cutlass without problems, it goes well with Tweak Scale.

The real problem is the wings, I only use OPT for them (to greatly reduce parts count), and they have integrated tanks with a proprietary fuel switch that does not support LH2 or Cryotanks. In the OPT topic there are some people complaining about that, and none solutions.

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30 minutes ago, MaximumThrust said:

The real problem is the wings, I only use OPT for them (to greatly reduce parts count), and they have integrated tanks with a proprietary fuel switch that does not support LH2 or Cryotanks. In the OPT topic there are some people complaining about that, and none solutions.

I'm one of the maintainers of OPT and I already intend to address this problem. The next OPT Legacy release will enable tank switching via B9PS so it will be easy to add whatever propellant combo you like to all OPT parts, and ignore/unload/override Firespitter integration when it is present.

Edited by JadeOfMaar

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2 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I'm one of the maintainers of OPT and I already intend to address this problem. The next OPT Legacy release will enable tank switching via B9PS so it will be easy to add whatever propellant combo you like to all OPT parts, and ignore/unload/override Firespitter integration when it is present.

Thanks for the reply! I think that the best option to work with Nertea is to have a option to make them work like stock tanks, with LF/Ox, so it can applies it's own system, with the cooling. But I'm no expert.

I did a test install without firespitter (by accident), and got this:
2DpIJQ1.png
The wings simple got the resources and Nertea's fuel switch took over, like any other tank.

Since many mods I use have Firespitter as a dependence, I need to keep it. So I tried to remove everything in GameData\OPT\mm_config, the wings lost all the tanks.

Them I removed only the OPT_FS.cfg, no effect. Removed OPT_Resource_Defaults only, lost the tanks.

Them I removed OPT_FS.cfg, and removed the mod dependencies (:NEEDS[!Firespitter,!RealFuels,!ModularFuelTanks]) from OPT_Resource_Defaults.cfg, so it should always applies the tanks. It worked for all tanks, wings and cabins, with firespitter installed. But I lost the custom OPT category :huh: I don't see any relation for this to happen.

My OPT_Resource_Defaults.cfg:

Spoiler

//THIS_CFG_HAS_BEEN_AUTO_COMPILED_BY_KYEON_BOT_MK2
//THIS_WORK_IS_LICENSED_UNDER_THE_CREATIVE_COMMONS_ATTRIBUTION
//_NONCOMMERCIAL_SHAREALIKE_4.0_INTERNATIONAL_LICENSE
//MODNAME: ORBIT PORTAL TECHNOLOGY SPACE PLANE PARTS
//VERSION: 1.9.9
//DATE_ED: 2017-07-29

@PART[h_2m_em_fm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 144
        maxAmount = 144
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 176
        maxAmount = 176
    }
}

@PART[h_2m_em_mm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 144
        maxAmount = 144
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 176
        maxAmount = 176
    }
}

@PART[h_2m_nose_fm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 144
        maxAmount = 144
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 176
        maxAmount = 176
    }
}

@PART[h_2m_nose_mm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 144
        maxAmount = 144
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 176
        maxAmount = 176
    }
}

@PART[h_3m_fuel_fm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 396
        maxAmount = 396
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 484
        maxAmount = 484
    }
}

@PART[h_3m_fuel_mm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 396
        maxAmount = 396
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 484
        maxAmount = 484
    }
}

@PART[h_4m_nose_fm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 432
        maxAmount = 432
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 528
        maxAmount = 528
    }
}

@PART[h_4m_nose_mm]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 432
        maxAmount = 432
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 528
        maxAmount = 528
    }
}

@PART[ij_adaptor]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[ij_4m_adaptor_variant]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 720
        maxAmount = 720
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 880
        maxAmount = 880
    }
}

@PART[i_4m_cockpit_isp]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 108
        maxAmount = 108
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 132
        maxAmount = 132
    }
}

@PART[i_4m_tail]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[phoenix_cockpit]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 144
        maxAmount = 144
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 176
        maxAmount = 176
    }
}

@PART[ils_cockpitv2]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 180
        maxAmount = 180
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 220
        maxAmount = 220
    }
}

@PART[jk_3m_adaptor]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1080
        maxAmount = 1080
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1320
        maxAmount = 1320
    }
}

@PART[jk_7m_adaptor]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 2160
        maxAmount = 2160
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 2640
        maxAmount = 2640
    }
}

@PART[j_2m_bicoupler]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[j_docking_port]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 288
        maxAmount = 288
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 352
        maxAmount = 352
    }
}

@PART[j_2m_tanks]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 648
        maxAmount = 648
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 792
        maxAmount = 792
    }
}

@PART[j_deploymentBay]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[j_large_docking_port]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[j_4m_cargo]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[j_4m_crew]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 900
        maxAmount = 900
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1100
        maxAmount = 1100
    }
}

@PART[j_engineMount_4]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[j_4m_tanks]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1332
        maxAmount = 1332
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1628
        maxAmount = 1628
    }
}

@PART[j_4m_service]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[j_5m_nose]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[j_5m_tail]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[j_6m_cockpit]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[j_cockpitv2]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 270
        maxAmount = 270
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 330
        maxAmount = 330
    }
}

@PART[j_cockpit_qs]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 270
        maxAmount = 270
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 330
        maxAmount = 330
    }
}

@PART[j_cockpit_qs_no_intake]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 270
        maxAmount = 270
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 330
        maxAmount = 330
    }
}

@PART[kh_3m_cargo]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 612
        maxAmount = 612
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 748
        maxAmount = 748
    }
}

@PART[kh_3m_fuselage]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 612
        maxAmount = 612
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 748
        maxAmount = 748
    }
}

@PART[kh_6m_cargo]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1260
        maxAmount = 1260
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1540
        maxAmount = 1540
    }
}

@PART[kh_6m_fuselage]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1260
        maxAmount = 1260
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1540
        maxAmount = 1540
    }
}

@PART[kh_7m_cargoTail_variant]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[k_10m_cockpit]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 720
        maxAmount = 720
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 880
        maxAmount = 880
    }
}

@PART[k_2m_bicoupler]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1080
        maxAmount = 1080
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1320
        maxAmount = 1320
    }
}

@PART[k_3m_fuelTank]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1152
        maxAmount = 1152
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1408
        maxAmount = 1408
    }
}

@PART[k_3m_fuselage]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 612
        maxAmount = 612
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 748
        maxAmount = 748
    }
}

@PART[k_3m_tricoupler]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}

@PART[k_6m_cargo]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1260
        maxAmount = 1260
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1540
        maxAmount = 1540
    }
}

@PART[k_6m_fuelTank]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 2340
        maxAmount = 2340
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 2860
        maxAmount = 2860
    }
}

@PART[k_6m_fuselage]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 1260
        maxAmount = 1260
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1540
        maxAmount = 1540
    }
}

@PART[k_7m_cargoTail_variant]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[mk2j_adaptor]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 504
        maxAmount = 504
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 616
        maxAmount = 616
    }
}

@PART[mk2_nose_opt]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 180
        maxAmount = 180
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 220
        maxAmount = 220
    }
}

@PART[opt_pylon_a]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 900
        maxAmount = 900
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 1100
        maxAmount = 1100
    }
}

@PART[opt_pylon_b]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[opt_wing_a]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 288
        maxAmount = 288
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 352
        maxAmount = 352
    }
}

@PART[opt_wing_b]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 360
        maxAmount = 360
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 440
        maxAmount = 440
    }
}

@PART[opt_wing_c]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
        amount = 540
        maxAmount = 540
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        amount = 660
        maxAmount = 660
    }
}


Is there a problem if I use OPT this way? Firespitter has someting to do with the custom category? I don't really know what I'm doing :rolleyes:

Sorry to take your time! We could move this discussion to the OPT topic if you or anyone thinks it's more appropriate. 

Edited by MaximumThrust

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4 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

@Nertea, I'd like to request a new 0.625m LH2/Ox engine in the 20-30kN (vac) class, similar to the NV-10 Eel, to complement the Volcano at tech level 4. Target application is landers for airless moons, so an extensible nozzle for maximal ISP would probably not be required.  I've submitted a GitHub request for tracking purposes.

I don't usually do requests, sorry. I've had a request for this a few times and probably won't do it anytime soon if it all. Too many other interesting projects.

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@Nertea Is there a plan to update this to be compatible with the 1.3.1 builds of RO / Real Fuels? Right now it doesn't work. Thanks!

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15 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

@Nertea, I'd like to request a new 0.625m LH2/Ox engine in the 20-30kN (vac) class, similar to the NV-10 Eel, to complement the Volcano at tech level 4. Target application is landers for airless moons, so an extensible nozzle for maximal ISP would probably not be required.  I've submitted a GitHub request for tracking purposes.

I simply use TweakScale with the 1.5m engine, works very well.

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58 minutes ago, jstnj said:

@Nertea Is there a plan to update this to be compatible with the 1.3.1 builds of RO / Real Fuels? Right now it doesn't work. Thanks!

There is no plan. And the only real answer to this question is another one. "Do you love RO enough that you're willing to become a modder and learn to make this compatibility yourself?" Many folks ask for RO compatibility but no one says they are able to deliver.

 

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10 hours ago, jstnj said:

@Nertea Is there a plan to update this to be compatible with the 1.3.1 builds of RO / Real Fuels? Right now it doesn't work. Thanks!

To clarify further.: doing this requires that I stay up to date with the exact balance and requirements of RO. That's not something I really have time to do these days.

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12 hours ago, Nertea said:

To clarify further.: doing this requires that I stay up to date with the exact balance and requirements of RO. That's not something I really have time to do these days.

Appreciate the reply. Makes total sense.

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Okay, I've... got to be frank here. I don't see the upshot of using these.

I-I mean, they seem really cool (har dee har), but when I have to make my rockets 4 or 5 times bigger and more expensive to get the same result as a much smaller liquid fuel configuration that costs less... I REALLY don't get it.

Am I missing something here? I really don't want to hate this, but they seem awful, even in a vacuum. I can get roughly 4000 dV with a huge nuclear hydrogen configuration, but I can also get a tiny bit less with a single FL-T800 and a stock Nerv for way less volume and cost. Sure, you can always add more fuel tanks to it, but that works for any kind of rocket. At some point the volume has to be so huge that we run into aerodynamic problems and my spacecraft being about half a kilometer long.

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25 minutes ago, Brixmon said:

Okay, I've... got to be frank here. I don't see the upshot of using these.

I-I mean, they seem really cool (har dee har), but when I have to make my rockets 4 or 5 times bigger and more expensive to get the same result as a much smaller liquid fuel configuration that costs less... I REALLY don't get it.

Am I missing something here? I really don't want to hate this, but they seem awful, even in a vacuum. I can get roughly 4000 dV with a huge nuclear hydrogen configuration, but I can also get a tiny bit less with a single FL-T800 and a stock Nerv for way less volume and cost. Sure, you can always add more fuel tanks to it, but that works for any kind of rocket. At some point the volume has to be so huge that we run into aerodynamic problems and my spacecraft being about half a kilometer long.

I wondered this as well, and am still on the fence about it a little bit. If you play around with it enough, though, you'll find that the LH2/Ox engines allow you to make a tradeoff:

1. Much more volume

2. Probably more expensive

3. However, rather significantly less mass for a given dV so long as we're talking about an upper stage.

The same seems to be true for KerbalAtomics, which switches nukes over to LH2: LH2-based stuff is less massive overall for similar dV, and the tradeoff is a LOT more volume (like 6x or 8x the volume compared to setting up a Nerv engine with LiquidFuel instead).

At least that's been my impression with them so far.

EDIT: One thing I will note, though, is that the engines themselves from this pack tend to be MUCH more massive than vaguely similar ones from other packs. Dunno how each author decided on the balance there, just a thing I noticed (compare to BDB, for instance).

Edited by AccidentalDisassembly

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Hmm... Okay, well, I see that. I suppose they're situational, then. That makes more sense of it.

If you CAN lift a huge rocket, you can actually get less mass for more cost and some power concerns. That makes more sense to me, then, thank you.

Still, I think the volume requirements could be toned down at least a little. It might be more realistic, but this IS Kerbal Space Program.

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Why not make an upgrade in the tech tree that allow compressed fuels to be used later on? (Increase the volume allowed in a tank by 3 times or something like that)

Maybe even reduce the overall EC required to cool it slightly since it is all in one tank.

In general I have the same problem as other users right now, these engines simply aren’t worth it 90% of the time.  

The problem with having them as an upper stage is that I need to be able to generate enough electricity to prevent boil off, which either means nuke reactors or many heavy solar panels.

In GPP in particular, this is a major problem for the more distant planets as solar because useless, and nuke reactors need tons of expensive fuel to last long enough.  

Edited by MechBFP

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