Why was adding aerodynamic stability removed?

[Roflcopterkklol]

I can get much farther than a 150ish km orbit with the leftover 1365 dv. Like duna, or maybe laythe with some clever gravity assist at jool. And that's all with a 3 ton payload in the cargohold.

How the hell does it get into orbit?

ive just had a better look, it has a nuke and 4 rapiers on it, there is no way that thing is getting into orbit in the first place with 1400 Oxidizer whats your master secret on the fly up?

you know something i dont it seems.

[PotatoOverdose]

How the hell does it get into orbit?

ive just had a better look, it has a nuke and 4 rapiers on it, there is no way that thing is getting into orbit in the first place with 1300 lfo whats your master secret on the fly up?

you know something i dont it seems.

Here's the flight plan:

pitch up to 20 degrees until 18km. - Near surface you get TWR of 2, at 18km you get TWR of less than 1.

Pitch to -10 degrees until you pass the sound barrier (re-entry effects, usually around 10-14km depending on the craft).

Once past sound barrier, your TWR shoots past 2 or even 3, pitch up to +10 degrees and maintain until +1200 m/s, usually happens around 20km+. This particular plane can get to around 1300m/s.

Once your TWR drops below 1 (happens around 22-26km), activate the nerva and rocket mode on the rapiers and pitch up to 30+ degrees (45 if you can manage it but I usually can't) - maintain burn until apoapsis is at 80km.

Once in space, burn to circularize, this will use the remainder of your oxidizer - now you just have a nerva and 800-1200 units of liquid fuel.

The idea is to use gravity to help you break the sound barrier.

Edited May 3, 2015 by PotatoOverdose

[rodion_herrera]

The idea is to use gravity to help you break the sound barrier.

Chuckles. I thought no one would figure it out. *happily goes back to flying my SSTO's into orbit*

(with this thought, someone may have preceeded Yeager in breaking the sound barrier in 1941, with the flight of a Luftwaffe Me-163 Komet prototype in a dive, but it was never confirmed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier#Early_claims )

EDIT: I really hate myself now for constantly bringing up Orbiter comparisons, but those who know Orbiter and its Vanilla SCRAMJET-Version Delta Glider, knows that at around 16-18k altitude, you HAVE to descend (i.e. let gravity assist you) to let the SCRAM engines really working, to assist you in getting to LEO. Granted, it's just a short assist burst but it does help.

Edited May 3, 2015 by rodion_herrera

[regex]

Chuckles. I thought no one would figure it out. *happily goes back to flying my SSTO's into orbit*

tbh I've been saying this same thing, more or less, for a day or so and no one has been listening, although I modified my flight plan to start the dive at 12~13km today and got much better results. I only learned about it recently.

[rodion_herrera]

tbh I've been saying this same thing, more or less, for a day or so and no one has been listening, although I modified my flight plan to start the dive at 12~13km today and got much better results. I only learned about it recently.

I guess others simply don't want to unlearn what they've learned or been used to.

[PotatoOverdose]

tbh I've been saying this same thing, more or less, for a day or so and no one has been listening, although I modified my flight plan to start the dive at 12~13km today and got much better results. I only learned about it recently.

Actually, I got the idea from reading some of your posts, and fine tuned a flight plan for my own craft, so credit where credit is due.

Incidentally, it can also be done with 2 Rapiers and a Nerva instead of 4 rapiers. 4 is more efficient, much more dV left over because of better TWR, but 2 is perfectly viable. Here's one of my earlier craft achieving it. Hadn't solved the nerva heat problem yet, so it's a bit warm.

[regex]

Actually, I got the idea from reading some of your posts, and fine tuned a flight plan for my own craft, so credit where credit is due.

NathanKell is who should get the credit. It got mentioned to me off-hand in IRC and I've been abusing it ever since. I can't stop making/refining spaceplanes now.

Also, kudos on the LV-N spaceplane. Hopefully it's inspiration for some people to try for a SSTL again.

[Roflcopterkklol]

Actually, I got the idea from reading some of your posts, and fine tuned a flight plan for my own craft, so credit where credit is due.

Incidentally, it can also be done with 2 Rapiers and a Nerva instead of 4 rapiers. 4 is more efficient, much more dV left over because of better TWR, but 2 is perfectly viable. Here's one of my earlier craft achieving it. Hadn't solved the nerva heat problem yet, so it's a bit warm.

http://i.imgur.com/k5SQwnS.jpg?1

i still do not get how that can out perform my craft... how is so little oxidizer enough for 1000m/s of delta v?

it is doing my head in.

You are going up basically the same climb angle and speeds as me (you are getting to 26km 50m/s faster than me).

yet my craft takes nearly 3 times as much fuel to do the same thing?

I already discovered its not a drag problem by removing the fairings and achieving the exact same craft performance so im lost...

Don't tell me its to do with the 2 pre coolers per engine?

Edited May 3, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[Camacha]

What HAS been eliminated is the ability to freeform construct things out of piles of wings without giving any thought to how it would fly. You can't have 20 air intakes and 100+ wing segments because they add a HUGE amount of drag; This is entirely realistic, and ANY sane aerodynamic system would have caused this. Quite frankly you were exploiting the extremely limited flight system before and I am sorry to say that time of your life is over (with stock settings anyway)

This exactly. Real world space planes are hard. KSP space planes are not quite as hard, but the previous model did not make any sense, so you need to think a little bit more about what you are doing now.

[Roflcopterkklol]

This exactly. Real world space planes are hard. KSP space planes are not quite as hard, but the previous model did not make any sense, so you need to think a little bit more about what you are doing now.

and again.

The only thing not using the aerodynamic fairings i have made does is reduce the stability at supersonic speeds and removes all structural integrity from the craft.

[regex]

The only thing not using the aerodynamic fairings i have made does is reduce the stability at supersonic speeds and removes all structural integrity from the craft.

Then use them! Clearly you've found a way to make what you want to work, work.

[Rune]

Errr... I find this thread confusing. I am loving the new aero, everything I throw together looks incredibly nice, and always clocks in under 100 parts. Took some getting used to, of course, but it works so much like "real life" (scaled in difficulty into the realm of the doable, of course), that I was able to figure stuff out on my own real quick.

Rune. Rocketplanes are finally rocketplanes!

Edited May 3, 2015 by Rune

[Roflcopterkklol]

Then use them! Clearly you've found a way to make what you want to work, work.

Yes but it is moot, Whats the point of LKO SSTO's?

I can not possibly make that craft better, its already beyond its intended design limits and i really do not feel like spending 10 times longer to design something 5 times its size so i can have my game crash when i load it.

Is there a way to download 0.90 without doing it illegally... that would make me a happy camper....

I already melted one gaming craft building stupid things like this, i do not want to melt another one out trying to leave LKO of all things....

Edited May 3, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[PotatoOverdose]

i still do not get how that can out perform my craft... how is so little oxidizer enough for 1000m/s of delta v?

it is doing my head in.

You are going up basically the same climb angle and speeds as me (you are getting to 26km 50m/s faster than me).

yet my craft takes nearly 3 times as much fuel to do the same thing?

I already discovered its not a drag problem by removing the fairings and achieving the exact same craft performance so with...

Don't tell me its to do with the 2 pre coolers per engine?

The pre coolers just add a nice bit of liquid fuel and a nice bit of intake. Looking at your craft here and my craft here, there are a few key differences.

I count 7 engines on yours, mine only has 5. 4 of your engines (the jets) contribute nothing to the orbital burn once you reach 1200m/s+, so are dead weight. The nerva on my planes, while dead weight in low atmo, is actually noticeably useful in high atmo, giving me +0.4 TWR when I need it most. You have 3 radial tanks mounted on each side of the mk2 fuselage - mine has 2, that means there's more surface area to create drag making your plane less efficient.

You also use a lot of small wing components - I count no less than 24 wing pieces and no less than 14 additional control surfaces. My planes have 6 wing pieces and 6 control surfaces.

Just compare this:

With mine:

You CAN build an ssto, that carries a multi-ton payload to orbit, and has well over a thousand dV in orbit. Mine carried 3 tons with 1365 dV left over, it's perfectly doable. You just need to make some changes from pre-1.0 designs.

Edited May 3, 2015 by PotatoOverdose

[Robotengineer]

Yes but it is moot, Whats the point of LKO SSTO's?

I can not possibly make that craft better, its already beyond its intended design limits and i really do not feel like spending 10 times longer than it used to take to create a plane designing something 5 times its size so i can have my game crash when i load it.

Is there a way to download 0.90 without doing it illegally... that would make me a happy camper....

I already melted one gaming craft building stupid things like this, i do not want to melt another one out trying to leave LKO of all things....

http://i.imgur.com/LeZQFUM.jpg

The point of LKO SSTO's is cheap crew transfer to stations or departing tugs.

[Roflcopterkklol]

The point of LKO SSTO's is cheap crew transfer to stations or departing tugs.

Is it so bad for me to want more than that out of an SSTO?

All they have to do is let jets get to hypersonic speeds if the design allows it once again, its not like it did not take an over designed masterpiece to become an SSTMun or interplanetary plane.

Basically im annoyed that the best i can ever do in an SSTO is LKO.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[PotatoOverdose]

Also, if you make a single stage to minmus plane, you can have an ISRU craft there make unlimited quantities of fuel. Minmus has very low land/orbit dV requirements, so it's a perfect place for a mining/refuel station in orbit. A Nerva SSTO, fully refueled will then have over 9k dV to deliver payloads to any point in the solar system - and the entire setup, the Single Stage to Minmus plane, and the ISRU fuel craft are fully re-usable - forever.

[Columbia]

if you use them for aesthetics it's gonna mess up the plane

Wait what? The only reason why wings (or namely, the airfoil shape) are most often used to generate the lift of an airplane is because their lift/drag ratios are good in comparison to other objects. Anything could generate lift - It's just the angle of attack that keeps it producing the lift. You can call a cardboard box a wing, but not a very efficient one at that because it's not streamlined and therefore generates more drag.

Can someone clarify me on this?

PS: On topic - I just found it a bit hypocritical that things like realistic planet sizes and all that is considered by Squad to be "too realistic for the game", yet they insist on obsoletizing pretty much all of the community's ships and making a new aero system, so that just when we start adjusting to it -BAM! All that is gone, relearn everything.

I'm not blaming Squad for this - It's just that if the aero's going to be so different, at least alarm us first before we lose Valentina and crew in our first attempts to "45 @10k" again.

Hell, I would be happy if they just let nosecones have an effect.

[Roflcopterkklol]

The pre coolers just add a nice bit of liquid fuel and a nice bit of intake. Looking at your craft here and my craft here, there are a few key differences.

I count 7 engines on yours, mine only has 5. 4 of your engines (the jets) contribute nothing to the orbital burn once you reach 1200m/s+, so are dead weight. The nerva on my planes, while dead weight in low atmo, is actually noticeably useful in high atmo, giving me +0.4 TWR when I need it most. You have 3 radial tanks mounted on each side of the mk2 fuselage - mine has 2, that means there's more surface area to create drag making your plane less efficient.

You also use a lot of small wing components - I count no less than 24 wing pieces and no less than 14 additional control surfaces. My planes have 6 wing pieces and 6 control surfaces.

Just compare this:

http://i.imgur.com/hroXoeP.jpg

With mine:

http://i.imgur.com/yo4L3jW.png?1

You CAN build an ssto, that carries a multi-ton payload to orbit, and has well over a thousand dV in orbit. Mine carried 3 tons with 1365 dV left over, it's perfectly doable. You just need to make some changes from pre-1.0 designs.

My plane is supposed to have 6 rapiers and a nuke, nuke engines do nothing but overheat and explode now so that was replaced, i found it was easier to get to 1200m/s with 4 turbo jets in place of the rapiers and after 26km it does not require more than 3 rapiers in LFO mode to achieve an orbit meaning it was actually less dead weight to replace the 4 outer rapier engines, I still do not understand how your getting that into orbit when it takes my craft so much more, ideally i would want it to have the same engine/fuel/hull set up as my mk5 SSTMun only that does not have enough TWR to achieve orbit in the new aero, why the plane ended up being 4.1k LF and 4.4k LFO with 7 engines.

I think i give up.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[Rune]

The point of LKO SSTO's is cheap crew transfer to stations or departing tugs.

Actually, I always thought that their point was allowing 100% recovery on the runway for everything you launch. Which is kind of a big deal, even if it means building everything so it fits inside a payload bay. That last part is actually quite an entertaining self-imposed limitation.

Rune. But I'll be the last person to tell anyone what they should like doing in KSP!

[PotatoOverdose]

My plane is supposed to have 6 rapiers and a nuke, nuke engines do nothing but overheat and explode now so that was replaced, i found it was easier to get to 1200m/s with 4 turbo jets in place of the rapiers and after 26km it does not require more than 3 rapiers in LFO mode to achieve an orbit, I still do not understand how your getting that into orbit when it takes my craft so much more, ideally i would want it to have the same engine/fuel/hull set up as my mk5 SSTMun only that does not have enough TWR to achieve orbit, why the plane ended up being 4.1k LF and 4.4k LFO with 7 engines

I think i give up.

Mount the nuke to an unused fairing + reasonably large fuel tank - all of your heat problems with nukes will be gone. Fuel tanks and fairings are really good at absorbing nuke heat- I used a 1.25m fairing and an MK 2 to 1.5 adapter and can run the nuke without exploding - at least for 10-15 minutes.

[Voidryder]

Lord knows I would be the last person to betray any shop secrets (even the ones I make up), but you're right, Squad hates the spaceplane hanger. In fact, Squad hates spaceplanes specifically. I believe it stems from some childhood trauma of a certain lead developer and this is his way of getting back at all those spaceplanes who bullied him in school. Or at least, that's what I read on the internet or just made up now. I'm not sure. Voices in my head making it hard to think. Either way, it is clear that Squad deliberately included in their game certain features that they themselves hate in order to torture the unfortunate souls who buy their game. One can only guess their reasoning. Perhaps, KSP is merely a tax write-off and they want it to fail? Hmmm, where's Jessie Ventura's number...I know I've got it somewhere around here..

(post is meant in jest)

[Roflcopterkklol]

Mount the nuke to an unused fairing + reasonably large fuel tank - all of your heat problems with nukes will be gone. Fuel tanks and fairings are really good at absorbing nuke heat- I used a 1.25m fairing and an MK 2 to 1.5 adapter and can run the nuke without exploding - at least for 10-15 minutes.

Thanks... though i think i cant be bothered even trying to get it to work.

Im done with SSTO's...

heck considering that was the only thing in this game i was good at i think im done with 1.0.2 completely.

[Wanderfound]

The point of LKO SSTO's is cheap crew transfer to stations or departing tugs.

Not to forget hyper-economical deployment of satellites and microprobes.

Another demonstrator...

Kerbodyne Triske. Turbos and RAPIERs, singing in harmony.

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Craft file at https://www.dropbox.com/s/ga8orb9xrpxgk21/Kerbodyne%20Triske.craft?dl=0

[rodion_herrera]

I dunno, I think this plane looks kind of like the first image in the original post.

Gets 1365 dV in LKO with a 3 ton payload in tow. And the nerva can last ~15 minutes without exploding things.

Do those wings contain fuel? I'm sheepishly trying to copy your design hahahaha!

UPDATE/EDIT: Managed to get this into LKO. I tried using two Nervas but I end up spending more fuel than I should, so this won't be visiting Mun anytime soon. But with a little tweaking I think I can. Yes, I also added turbojets, if only to get to altitude faster. I like the fact that I keep experimenting on engine combinations a lot now.

Edited May 3, 2015 by rodion_herrera