MechJeb: Cheating or not? The definitive thread/poll

[OrbitusII]

I had seen it a long time ago on a previous argument thread, and it kept a special place in my heart.

It's a brilliant infographic, to be sure. I'm keeping it on hand for the next MechJeb flamewar.

[Camacha]

This has to be a raging troll by now.

[John FX]

I'm just glad that Smart ASS has now actually made it into stock.

Now all the people that said it was cheating have to make a choice between being hypocrites or not using stock features.

Surely they were not arguing against it ONLY because it was not stock and now it is stock they use it?

If that IS the case that means we should stockify all the contentious mods...

In my mind it is cheating as much as using KOS. The person who programs does not matter if it is the computer the flies your craft.

Mechjeb could be accurately called "KOS written by Sarbian"

[KerbMav]

Flogging the poor old dead pony again?

[almagnus1]

I'm just glad that Smart ASS has now actually made it into stock.

Now all the people that said it was cheating have to make a choice between being hypocrites or not using stock features.

Surely they were not arguing against it ONLY because it was not stock and now it is stock they use it?

If that IS the case that means we should stockify all the contentious mods...

In my mind it is cheating as much as using KOS. The person who programs does not matter if it is the computer the flies your craft.

Mechjeb could be accurately called "KOS written by Sarbian"

Except that Mechjeb does some really dumb things, whereas kOS only does so if YOU do dumb things.

I do enough dumb things, I don't need help =P

[sarbian]

So I am dumb ?

[Temeriki]

What I use mechjeb for, builds (d/v stage, part counts, weights (yes I know this is stock now, mj just presents it better and I can pull more info), launch planning (launching into direct rendezvous, planning to launch at launch windows), maneuver node planning (let mj set the node, I make the final adjustments), and for rendezvous (trying to manually adjust maneuver nodes sucks when you have minor hand tremors). But the best use of MJ, CUSTOM WINDOWS! Hell yeah, radar, AP, PE, orbit time, radar, see level height, I have my launch windows, flight windows, maneuver windows, descent windows, no need to go to map view. Do I use it for actual flight, not really, butif a burn is more than 10 minutes then HELL YES, I dont have time for that.

So I am dumb ?

Stupid is as stupid does?

[almagnus1]

So I am dumb ?

No, it's just that AI is a hard problem to get it to look smart. For most everything MechJeb does, it does it rather well... however....

Try docking with the NavyFish Docking UI open, and let MechJeb do the docking. It's not a very pretty sight to behold, especially considering how easy the Docking UI makes it to understand what you need to do to dock two spacecraft together.

[fairytalefox]

Except that Mechjeb does some really dumb things, ...

Sometimes (quite often actually) things we have to do are dumb. Like, shutting off an engine at the exact millisecond it needs to be shut down. Or calculating dV of my fancy 38 stage lifter. Or raising periapsis by 232 meters (not 233 you idiot!) I am smart \m/ \m/, so I'm bad at dumb things.

On the other hand, computers are dumb by design, so they fit these tasks very well.

One has to be smart to determine if a certain task is dumb enough to delegate it to a computer.

[Nothalogh]

One has to be smart to determine if a certain task is dumb enough to delegate it to a computer.

That is magnificent simplicity

[sarbian]

No, it's just that AI is a hard problem to get it to look smart. For most everything MechJeb does, it does it rather well... however....

Try docking with the NavyFish Docking UI open, and let MechJeb do the docking. It's not a very pretty sight to behold, especially considering how easy the Docking UI makes it to understand what you need to do to dock two spacecraft together.

When was the last time you used MJ docking AP ?

[almagnus1]

.90 when trying to film an Apollo style CM => LEM dock for LEM extraction from stage 3.

It was pretty inefficient with both the mono propellant used (which wasn't a bad thing as there was an excessive amount of mono prop between the CM and LEM), but more critically, it didn't do the logical thing of flip the CM around, and go towards the LEM, but took a very inefficient course and burned a lot of monoprop in the process, to the point that the CM was almost out of monoprop (considering it was an SDHI Orion style CM, this is quite the feat in and of itself).

It also meshes with a lot of other experiences I've had with the docking AI, and why I'm so critical of it. The rest of MechJeb is awesome, the docking AI is... awesome... in other... ways.

[youkofoxy]

I do not like the mech jeb.

does almost everything get easier.

alias, the interface is so simple that the only question is: do you have the patience to tell the robot that what you want?

and the great difficulty is to have patience and learn what each command does ...

yes ever used.

and in my opinion ... the skills of pilots / probes are something necessary for those who do not have a HOTAS system.

especially during landing.

another detail is the feeling: I'm a boss yelling to my employees.

in the end, know that a guy is more appreciated by the public when he create this "mechanical arm" that can complete a level, that when using a software done by someone else to complete a level.

[Beowolf]

MechJeb's exactly like ANY other tool: It can be used, and can be abused, and the rule for which is which is subjective.

For me, proper use is for MJ to do all the routine stuff I've done a thousand times and am bored with. After two years and over a thousand hours, believe me I can get into orbit (In fact, the MJ Ascent autopilot isn't working well for me in 1.0.2, so I've been doing all launches by hand). Same for executing a maneuver node. Where's the hard part in that? You point at the node and burn the curved line down. So why do it by hand?

OTOH I think rendezvous and docking is fun, so never let MJ do those. My turn, machine!

It's also a wonderful training tool for newbies. When I started out, MJ's the one who taught me how to do airless landings.

But 95% of MJ to me is information! Even after two years of this argument, I'm utterly unable to understand people who play KSP without knowing their craft's delta-v and TWR. What's the point? To me, it's like sitting at a slot machine pulling a lever to get random results. And I really hate the way KSP presents the little info they give us. I want a panel with my orbit info all in one place; not to keep switching between screens and hovering over things.

But if you're having trouble getting into a circular orbit manually, and use MJ to send a huge, unstable rocket to Jool, that's "cheaty". Though nobody should care unless you then brag about your Jool mission. THAT's where it turns into cheating, and frankly I haven't seen much of it here. Most folk mention up-front if they used MJ.

The quicksave/quickload/revert features in stock can be used or abused in similar ways, so I don't see why people keep picking on poor MJ. Heck, real aircraft autopilots are even worse. Real pilots kill themselves every year thinking their autopilot's smarter than it actually is.

Even a silver hammer can be abused. Ask The Beatles.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Beowolf

[-Velocity-]

Whether or not Mechjeb is "cheating"- to me it depends on whether or not you could perform whatever task MJ is doing for you by yourself without its assistance. If the answer is "yes", then all Mechjeb does is steamline some tasks for you that would otherwise be tedious and *not* fun. We're here to have fun.... right?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and it's still the case in 1.02 that we can't see our rocket's TWR in various stages without a mod, right? Yea.... that's mega-un-fun, because without MJ to compute TWR and delta-V, I have no choice but to fire up my work laptop and calculate it all out myself in Excel (which I sometimes have to do anyway). Excel spreadsheets = generally not fun... though sometimes I amuse myself by like, calculating how many Nimitz class supercarriers made out of solid gold it would take to pay off the US national debt (we're over four now). I certainly don't want to be fiddling with an Excel spreadsheet while playing a computer game.

[stevehead]

I use mech jeb in cycles. I'll play the game for a long time without it, get tired of doing all the basic maneuvers such as circularizing my orbit, switch to using it to automate all the basic maneuvers and those very long ion engine burns, realize after a few days of playing that I can't recall the last time I executed a maneuver manually, then I'll remove it and the cycle begins again. I do disable the higher-level auto pilot options though (ascent guidance, auto-docking, etc.); I really just use the maneuver node planner and executor, Smart A.S.S., and occasionally the translatron. If the stock version of Smart A.S.S. was actually as good and actually worked properly, I would probably rarely use mech jeb.

I also think mech jeb is a useful learning tool for someone that has already learned the basics and is wanting to learn the more advanced maneuvers. I learned how to do LAN changes easily because of mech jeb.

Really it just boils down to this: if you're having fun, it doesn't matter if you use mech jeb or not. No one should be belittled if they use it, and those that refuse to use it because they consider it "cheating" shouldn't act like they are superior.

[Octa]

Not cheating, but good for stuff that's gotten "boring".

I like to build my rockets compatible to the mechjeb autopilot. If MJ can launch it to space, i assume it's a good design and a manual flight is possible.

Also, it helped me a lot with landings, i havent figured out where to burn yet for a rather efficient landing. I mean..i can get to the ground, but with some of my manual landings i ran out of fuel for the departure.

Also, the informational panels, I LOVE THEM.

[Corw]

Wish I had negreps available on this forum. Not only it is one of probably hundred threads over the years, no, but the op is so important and wise that his thread must be one thread to rule them all. Oh, wish I had the negreps...

[Octa]

Wish I had negreps available on this forum. Not only it is one of probably hundred threads over the years, no, but the op is so important and wise that his thread must be one thread to rule them all. Oh, wish I had the negreps...

There are new users like me who'd like to express their opinion on the topic, old or closed threads don't help there.

[Corw]

There are new users like me who'd like to express their opinion on the topic, old or closed threads don't help there.

New ones don't help either. I'll summarize the all the treads for you right here: there is no ultimate answer. It is your own opinion and it is your own choice. Somebody will always disagree with you. May be applied to more than just a MechJeb. So your poll is pointless.

[Suko]

No. It is not. For me, it is essential to know all the info it gives to you, orbit info, surface, delta-v stats... And unlike KER, it gives you the chance of executing manouver nodes. I still make my own manouver nodes, but I let MJ to execute them, as it's precision is often needed to achieve the orbits I intend to when a 4 m/s difference can really ruin your day. And of course, when you have to launch for the seventh time a rocket you've tested already, to an orbit you've put it already, many times before, making it automatic is just great.

[WinkAllKerb'']

mechjeb is about piloting and calculation , but piloting is a lot of thing beside what it may appear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculation

what kind of "pilots" & "calculs" does it ruin exactly just to be sure ? and is a single piloting & calcul amongst thooses long lists sum up the spirit of Kerbal space program in itself ?

101% nyan cat supporter here *shrug*

&

Edited May 8, 2015 by WinkAllKerb''

[OpenWorldAddict]

In Nasa, you don't have one person handling everything. Instead you have team of people each with a specific job and specific area of expertise working together to complete their objectives. You have pilots, scientists, engineers; you have flight directors, mission controllers, radio operators, and programmers.

When I play kerbal space program, I do not see myself as a pilot or the programmer that worked on a probe's guidance system. I see myself as a flight director/mission controller, the one that plans the missions, overseeing the launches, landings, and orbital maneuvers (such as transfers, corrections, and rendesvous), trying to come up with solutions when problems arise. I see mechjeb as the work of the pilots or the programmers, which is not my area of expertise.

I use mechjeb for the fidgety stuff, like getting my ship into a perfectly circular orbit, or doing a rendezvous with another ship (including the docking, which i have had no problems with), or landing my ship with pinpoint accuracy, or plotting a orbital plane transfer for when going to places like Minnus. Some of those things I have to much of a heavy hand to do due to my disability (like the docking), and so mechjeb is my accommodation, other things I can't just figure out (like getting int a perfect curricular orbit, doing the rendezvous and the orbital plane transfers). I also use mechjeb to help me plan my maneuvers cause sometimes mechjeb is just better than my brain.

Of course, when mechjeb screws things up royally, I do take manual control to try to rectify the situation. Mechjeb is not perfect, after all.

By the way, I do not use mechjeb for information. Kerbal Engineer gives me all the flight information that I need.

So, using mechjeb is not cheating. Flight Directors are not expected to fly the rocketships they send up, that's the job of the pilots and programmers; so why should I be expected to do it too. Running a space mission takes a team effort, and in my mind Mechjeb is just part of my team.

[Jarin]

The horse is bloody dead, man. It's an ex-horse!

[TheMoonRover]

For myself only, I would say yes. Personally as an experienced player I feel MechJeb takes too much of the fun out of the game for me. This is because I vary my mission types a lot and am somewhat impulsive in-game. I never hang around long enough to get bored, and failing a few times makes the success feel all the better. I don't mind having to build for extra delta-v because I'm judging interplanetary transfers by eye (and a table of phase angles). Especially now with all the vectors available in SAS, along with Time-Warp-To in the stock game, and KER for delta-v, I no longer find myself with any use for the MechJeb plugin. Although I do like the pod. I've kept that. So technically I'm using MechJeb as a parts mod

But generally I would say no, so I voted no on the poll. MechJeb is an excellent tool for learning how to play KSP, and used it to that effect myself. At the opposite end of the spectrum, it is a good tool for experienced players, particularly those who play hard career and enjoy the grind, as it allows you to quickly set up manoeuvres and land accurately (etc.) which would otherwise take a lot of time and could (for some people) get boring and/or annoying quickly. It allows you to get the boring missions done quickly and gives you more time to concentrate on the more enjoyable ones.

Edited May 8, 2015 by TheMoonRover