Is this an improved R-27 [The ballistic missile, not the vympel AA missile weapon]

[andrew123]

The North Koreans seem to have successfully tested a SLBM from their SSB missile submarine.

I wonder if it's using an improved North Korean made Isayev liquid fuel engine. Anyone have any info on whether or not the KN-11 is an improved R-27, because the rest of the sources are murky on this specific topic.

This will get entertaining.

Time for the South Korean ROKN to respond with a nuclear powered attack submarine. Which is already under development.

Edited May 11, 2015 by andrew123

[teepee2345]

here is a picture of an R-27:

here is the KN-11:

the R-27 looks like an AAM

[andrew123]

here is a picture of an R-27: https://shamazkhan.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/aa-10_r27r1_alamo.jpg

here is the KN-11: http://defencenews.in/news-images/5_img118215221528.jpg

the R-27 looks like an AAM

I'm referring to the R-27 Zyb

http://missilethreat.com/missiles/r-27-ss-n-6/

[xenomorph555]

I was wondering the same thing when I saw the photo a few days ago. However I cannot tell if it's solid or liquid. Should note the Iranians test fired a solid SLBM a few months ago.

If it's solid then that's bad, in many ways...

If it's liquid it's even worse since it means they got the R-27 main engine working. The does not bode well for anyone except my buddy's in the Iranian space program since they would be very happy getting their hands on a R-27 engine...

One thing I can tell is that it's using new fuel that's for sure. Also I should note that NK could never fully recreate or improve an R-27 which was (and still is) incredibly advanced. They could however make missiles from the tech.

Edited May 11, 2015 by xenomorph555

[andrew123]

I was wondering the same thing when I saw the photo a few days ago. However I cannot tell if it's solid or liquid. Should note the Iranians test fired a solid SLBM a few months ago.

If it's solid then that's bad, in many ways...

If it's liquid it's even worse since it means they got the R-27 main engine working. The does not bode well for anyone except my buddy's in the Iranian space program since they would be very happy getting their hands on a R-27 engine...

One thing I can tell is that it's using new fuel that's for sure. Also I should note that NK could never fully recreate or improve an R-27 which was (and still is) incredibly advanced. They could however make missiles from the tech.

Do you have any info or pictures of the Iranian solid fueled SLBM? I can't seem to find any sources for that, and if they're in farsi, I am unable to read them.

On the North Korean missile program, it should be noted that the KN-08 second stage is thought to use a R-27 engine and the third stage is thought to use the vernier engines from the R-27. If they successfully test fired both components and successfully requalified enough components, then the KN-08 could quickly go from vaporware to a credible threat. The only component left in the KN-08 to test would be the first stage, which is a quad scud rocket cluster or a single large solid fueled booster stage.

Either way, if the KN-11 is a lengthened or improved R-27, it cannot be taken lightly. I wouldn't doubt the ability of the North Koreans to eventually domestically produce and improve the R-27's components, including the Isayev rocket engine. If they shop around long enough, a Russian, Ukrainian, or Chinese dealer would probably be willing to sell them the required machinery and data to produce those rocket components.

[xenomorph555]

Do you have any info or pictures of the Iranian solid fueled SLBM? I can't seem to find any sources for that, and if they're in farsi, I am unable to read them.

On the North Korean missile program, it should be noted that the KN-08 second stage is thought to use a R-27 engine and the third stage is thought to use the vernier engines from the R-27. If they successfully test fired both components and successfully requalified enough components, then the KN-08 could quickly go from vaporware to a credible threat. The only component left in the KN-08 to test would be the first stage, which is a quad scud rocket cluster or a single large solid fueled booster stage.

Either way, if the KN-11 is a lengthened or improved R-27, it cannot be taken lightly. I wouldn't doubt the ability of the North Koreans to eventually domestically produce and improve the R-27's components, including the Isayev rocket engine. If they shop around long enough, a Russian, Ukrainian, or Chinese dealer would probably be willing to sell them the required machinery and data to produce those rocket components.

1. As for the Iranian missile, I am sorry but all of the sources (quotes, photo's and even videos) have vanished since I last saw them and I cannot find any mention of it anywhere. Quite strange.

2. I was also thinking about the KN-08, have to see where that leads.

3. I doubt their ability to improve the R-27 because it's comparing North Korea to the Soviet Union, one is an incredible super power while the other is a small hermit kingdom.

[magnemoe]

Note that its strongly suspected this was an missile eject test, that is an rest of shooting the missile out of the sub and have it ignite once it breach the surface.

Most KSP players agree that the angle of the trajectory is way too low, looks like it breaks the water angled too? is it not stored vertical?

More weird is that north Korea has not tested the R-27 derivate before this.

[xenomorph555]

Note that its strongly suspected this was an missile eject test, that is an rest of shooting the missile out of the sub and have it ignite once it breach the surface.

Most KSP players agree that the angle of the trajectory is way too low, looks like it breaks the water angled too? is it not stored vertical?

More weird is that north Korea has not tested the R-27 derivate before this.

It's possibly a short range bm for taking out large ships like carriers.

Also I don't find it weird their only testing now. Their small, poor and have few scientists; also sanctions.

[teepee2345]

Do you have any info or pictures of the Iranian solid fueled SLBM? I can't seem to find any sources for that, and if they're in farsi, I am unable to read them.

.

the Iranians dont have an SLBM. the only submarines they operate are Project 877EKM Kilo class submarines. they are designed for Anti-surface warfare against ships. they have no way to launch missiles.

Edited May 13, 2015 by teepee2345

[Kryten]

They have a number of small (~300 ton) domestic coastal submarines referred to as Sang-O, and a ~1000 ton submarine dubbed Sinpo has been seen in satellite images of a shipyard. Sinpo appears to have launch tubes of some kind in the sail, similar to the soviet Project 629/Golf class; some of which were sold to them in the 90s.

[teepee2345]

but what i said was about the IRANIAN missiles and submarines not north korean

[magnemoe]

the Iranians dont have an SLBM. the only submarines they operate are Project 877EKM Kilo class submarines. they are designed for Anti-surface warfare against ships. they have no way to launch missiles.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/images/kilo877_6.jpg

On the other hand the R-27 was designed to launch from a sub, the truck launched version was an derivate.

[Kryten]

but what i said was about the IRANIAN missiles and submarines not north korean

Sorry, my mistake. Iran could make something similar to Sinpo given they have their own domestic subs of similar size under construction (the Besat class), but as far as I can tell there's no real indication they're attempting to do so.

[magnemoe]

They have a number of small (~300 ton) domestic coastal submarines referred to as Sang-O, and a ~1000 ton submarine dubbed Sinpo has been seen in satellite images of a shipyard. Sinpo appears to have launch tubes of some kind in the sail, similar to the soviet Project 629/Golf class; some of which were sold to them in the 90s.

yes the russian golf was designed to launch R-27. it had an large sail to store two missiles.

[JakGamingKSP]

It is Suspected to be R-27 derived and its hypergolic and I am99.9% sure it's an R-27

Edited July 12, 2017 by JakGamingKSP
Its not solid i just assumed it because of the look

[Kryten]

It's definitely not R-27, it just uses the same OML. It's solid-fuelled and much smaller.

Compare; this is Musudan, it's a stretched R-27, but it retains the same diameter

This is Puguksong-1;

It's maybe half the diameter, and if you look closely you can see the wound-fiber construction used for all known NK solid motors.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kryten

[andrew123]

On 7/12/2017 at 1:03 AM, Kryten said:

It's definitely not R-27, it just uses the same OML. It's solid-fuelled and much smaller.

Compare; this is Musudan, it's a stretched R-27, but it retains the same diameter

 

This is Puguksong-1;

 

It's maybe half the diameter, and if you look closely you can see the wound-fiber construction used for all known NK solid motors.

 

You're right now, but the original KN-11 was liquid-fueled. The North Koreans switched to a solid-fueled variant after the liquid-fueled version kept failing (exploding, falling short, etc.) with no solid pointers as to what engine it originally used (Nodong, the R-27's engine, etc.).

 

Now, if the North Koreans would've been nice enough to state the fuel mix for the engine (N2O4 / UDMH or IFRNA / Kerosene) then the list of candidate's would've been much shorter.

 

When I made this thread (over 2 years ago!), they were testing the liquid-fueled variant. If you look at the picture in the OP, you can clearly see that the engine's liquid-fueled ("clean" flame / less smoke than the solid-fueled version).

 

They've also seemed to have abandoned trying to use the R-27's powerpack for their new missiles. They've all but stopped testing Musudans, and their new IRBM and ICBM (Hwasong-12 / 14) utilize a "domestic" (with speculation that it's based off either the SS-18's powerpack or the Chinese YF-20) powerpack.

 

PS: There was quite a furious debate after an armscontrolwonk article wonk article on the KN-11, where some people were claiming that the missile had a 1.5 m diameter (same as the R-27) and others were claiming 1.25 m (though not much disagreement about its length, which they assumed was similar to the R-27's, if I'm not mistaken).

http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/207631/dprk-slbm-test/

It doesn't matter much now. They've developed a solid motor capable of propelling the KN-11 / KN-15 MRBM, even if their ability to control the missile accurately is dubious (since they haven't bragged about thrust-termination systems, etc. often utilized to accurately / reliably control a solid-fueled ballistic missile's trajectory).

Edited July 17, 2017 by andrew123