Make Custom Action Groups available earlier in career

[katateochi]

I think that at least a couple custom action groups should be available earlier on in career mode. ie 2 custom groups in the first tier buildings, 6 in the 2nd tier and then all 10 in the fully upgraded SPH/VAB.

If you have multiple extendable solar panels having to right click on them all is a pain, and it really sucks for SSTO design. In my early/mid career SSTO's I end up re-purposing the named action groups (RCS, Stage, even abort) to toggle engines and on some orbital probes I use Gear (G) to deploy solar panels. While that does work, it doesn't feel right and craft end up with a very strange set of controls.

If one of the aims of career mode is to guide new players, then part of that should be about using action groups. As it is, I suspect most new players won't re-purpose the named action groups for things like solar panels or engine toggles, so they're left having to right click on everything which is kinda clunky and it won't be until much later in the game that they get to witness the full majesty of a craft unfolding all it's panels in unison (something I still really enjoy seeing).

(There are ways to get around not having custom action groups in career, but they are kinda hacky and inconvenient. I'm going to put those in a separate thread in GD.)

So, please Squad, let us have at least a couple custom action groups earlier on in career mode.

Edited May 16, 2015 by katateochi
added thread link

[Wanderfound]

Seconded. The right-click menus are nothing but an artificial PITA. Polishing up action groups to allow things like switching command pods and pumping fuel wouldn't hurt, either.

[BurnPrograde]

Agreed. At least 1 action group.

[Murph]

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree and say that Squad made a mistake having action groups as part of the facilities upgrade system. It just doesn't make sense to me. I think they should just stick to part count and size, or find something else that makes sense to only be available at level 3. Remove action groups from the upgrades system, change the part count for level 2 to something much lower than 255 parts. 255 is effectively unlimited for normal career mode craft, at least in the "get your space program started" phase  I'm easily completing all of my local (Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus) contracts on around 50 parts or less.

[katateochi]

Seconded. The right-click menus are nothing but an artificial PITA. Polishing up action groups to allow things like switching command pods and pumping fuel wouldn't hurt, either.

Yes the whole action group process could really do with an overhaul. They could be so much more powerful with more functionality; switching command pods is a very nice idea for that, I'd also like to have them able to increase/decrease an engine's thrust limits in small steps (ie for balancing cargo VTOLs on the fly).

I also think that it should be possible to add an action group to a stage, so for example you could set up an action group for deploying solar panels, and then click an "add to stage" button and get an icon for that group appear in the staging list and move it about like any other stage list icon.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree and say that Squad made a mistake having action groups as part of the facilities upgrade system. It just doesn't make sense to me. I think they should just stick to part count and size, or find something else that makes sense to only be available at level 3. Remove action groups from the upgrades system, change the part count for level 2 to something much lower than 255 parts. 255 is effectively unlimited for normal career mode craft, at least in the "get your space program started" phase  I'm easily completing all of my local (Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus) contracts on around 50 parts or less.

I agree, it feels like they are part of the upgrades system more because they where looking for things that could be upgraded, rather than there being a good reason for needing to upgrade them. I also agree that in career (and I tend to focus on small craft in career) there is no need to fully upgrade the SPH/VAB except for getting action groups and then to get that in both costs you several million (Jeb feels ripped off). I've pretty much finished unlocking the tech tree, upgraded all the other buildings and done a few interplanetary missions and aside from action groups I have no need to upgrade either the SPH or VAB.

[Blaarkies]

On 5/16/2015 at 1:51 PM, katateochi said:

...(Jeb feels ripped off). I've pretty much finished unlocking the tech tree, upgraded all the other buildings and done a few interplanetary missions and aside from action groups I have no need to upgrade either the SPH or VAB.

That is so true! You can even completely ignore the VAB and launch pad...just upgrade the SPH and Runway, then you can launch rockets and spaceplanes all from the runway, while having a dirt pile for a launch pad back at the VAB. It's a harsh exploit though.

[Alshain]

This has been argued before, but since it is such a terrible mechanic I'll do it again.

Limiting controls is not a valid game progression incentive... period.

This is especially true when vital controls like flaps and engine modes REQUIRE custom action groups. The action groups need to be removed from building upgrades all together and they should add something better.  In another thread someone equated it to limiting the use of a flight stick or gamepad to only after upgrading the astronaut complex.  That is a valid comparison, the mechanic is just plain stupid.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Alshain

[Snark]

Just wanted to give this thread another bump, since the topic has come up yet again over in the "gameplay questions" forum:

+1 to giving action groups a different treatment.  It feels kinda broken, as it's currently implemented.

I like that KSP building upgrades, and putting a limit on part count for the VAB level makes sense to me.  But the restriction on action groups seems kinda tacked-on; it's arbitrary, and it breaks that willing-suspension-of-disbelief thing that makes KSP so immersive.  I totally buy "okay, we can't build really complex ships with lots of parts until we upgrade our infrastructure."  But I just can't make myself swallow the idea that "we have the technology to land a kerbal on the Mun, but we don't have the technology to make <thing> happen when I press <button>."

What makes it especially egregious is that the VAB is so expensive.  It takes a lot of cash to upgrade it, especially to level 2.  I'm fine with high cost as a barrier to part count (it makes for some interesting game challenges, such as "okay, how do I build this Minmus mission with no more than 30 parts"), but I don't like high cost as a barrier to action groups.

So this seems like something that needs fixing.  Some ideas:

1. Move them down one notch in the upgrade path.  Basic action groups available by default.  Custom action groups available after upgrading VAB by one tier.  (I'd be okay with slightly lowering the part count limit for the one-upgrade VAB to compensate, if need be.  255 parts is practically "effective infinity" to me, since very rarely do I launch something with more parts than that.  I'd be fine with lowering that to, say, 120 parts, or the like.)
2. Link action groups to tech tree nodes. Basic action groups are available with Engineering 101.  Custom action groups available with Flight Control.  (Doesn't necessarily have to be those exact nodes, but should be something low enough in the tech tree that by the time you want action groups, you have them.)
3. Just make all action groups available from the get-go.  (I kinda like the idea of requiring at least some sort of progress to unlock action groups, so I'd prefer one of the above solutions to this one.  But I'd prefer this solution to what we have now.)

 

[LorenLuke]

Perhaps, if level 1 is basic and level 2 is numbered action groups, have level 3 be an 'on the fly' capability to edit the action groups. I've had several instances where I've created a station, but the solar panel action group is also another module's action group (an antenna or somesuch). Being able to edit or fine tune action groups in flight would be beneficial, especially if there's advanced functionality like fuel transfer science logging that can be assigned.

[monstah]

2 hours ago, Snark said:

1. Move them down one notch in the upgrade path.  Basic action groups available by default.  Custom action groups available after upgrading VAB by one tier.  (I'd be okay with slightly lowering the part count limit for the one-upgrade VAB to compensate, if need be.  255 parts is practically "effective infinity" to me, since very rarely do I launch something with more parts than that.  I'd be fine with lowering that to, say, 120 parts, or the like.)

My opinion. I also agree with you that 255 is effectively infinity, specially given part count lag.

[FullMetalMachinist]

I also support this idea. The way it currently works is like telling Squad that they can't use keyboard shortcuts while working in Unity unless they pay for an upgrade. 

[Nich]

 I absolutely love the idea of changing action groups on the fly. It would be also nice to be able to name action groups and give the clickable buttons for custom action groups if I haven't flown a craft in three months it be nice to know that number one is engines and number to a solar panels and not the other way around 

[AbacusWizard]

22 hours ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

I also support this idea. The way it currently works is like telling Squad that they can't use keyboard shortcuts while working in Unity unless they pay for an upgrade. 

That'd be a very effective way to get the point across!

[Malich]

How about doing away with set action groups all together but getting  4 or 5 unassigned action groups at each stage. That would give you some to start so you leatn how to manage them but get more flexibility each time you upgrade?

[numerobis]

The suggestion I made in the thread @Snark quoted was to have action groups depend on the pod. Then it comes down to saying "the Mk1 pod only has room for one button, which is why there's only one action group" versus "the cupola has twenty levers to control the entire space station so you get 20 action groups" which is a lot more in-story.

The point about player progression is well expressed above. I like the way we get pilot skill or computer complexity affect what SAS nodes we get to use. Using pods to define the number and type of action groups would give an easy way to learn what they do.

If we're going to add crazy new things like the ability to use action groups to pump fuel (omg yes!) then the ability to rename action groups in the editor and to bind them to whatever key we feel like would be nice. Then I can use 'f' for flaps rather than trying to remember whether it was '0' or the lights that extend the flaps on this plane.

[Nich]

1 hour ago, numerobis said:

The suggestion I made in the thread @Snark quoted was to have action groups depend on the pod. Then it comes down to saying "the Mk1 pod only has room for one button, which is why there's only one action group" versus "the cupola has twenty levers to control the entire space station so you get 20 action groups" which is a lot more in-story.

The point about player progression is well expressed above. I like the way we get pilot skill or computer complexity affect what SAS nodes we get to use. Using pods to define the number and type of action groups would give an easy way to learn what they do.

If we're going to add crazy new things like the ability to use action groups to pump fuel (omg yes!) then the ability to rename action groups in the editor and to bind them to whatever key we feel like would be nice. Then I can use 'f' for flaps rather than trying to remember whether it was '0' or the lights that extend the flaps on this plane.

excellent suggestions

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Yes! Do this! I need a Shutdown Engines function on my Tier 1 plane parts science jet in Lvl1 SPH. Seriously, Squad!

[RocketSquid]

Yes, I need this.

[Yaivenov]

My suggestions: to start, remove action groups from van/sph status. As mentioned earlier you could just exploit your way around it by building and launching rockets from the hangar and runway. Besides, this is a more tech and control related aspect, it would be better suited to being tied to mission control or the R&D campus. As for upgrade specific:

 

Tier 1: full actions groups as they exist now in game after full upgrades.

(Tier 1 real life equivalent: hard wired controls, switch A goes to part A, sensor B goes to dial B, has to be set when building the craft.)

 

Tier 2: simple computer logic automation, ie. set action group 1 to execute automatically when <part> becomes empty of <resource> and other logic options (speed, altitude, orientation, environmental factors). In-flight removal of action group participants (for when you dock two craft together permanently and need to deconflict groups, removes parts from action groups only, equivalent of simply unplugging a memory module; you can take it out, but you just don't have anything to replace it with.).

(Tier 2 real life equivalent: rudimentary transistor technology, non-writable permanent memory storage (rope core, ROM, etc.), still requires most things to be set up prior to launch but can help take task loading off the crew.)

 

Tier 3: in-flight addition of action groups (think of this like going from rope core memory in the Apollo era, could not be reprogrammed in flight, to EPROM chips that can be updated in flight) and an expansion on the complexity of logic systems.

(Tier 3 real life equivalent: full up integrated circuitry with deep programming/scripting ability coupled with readable/writable permanent memory storage: flash, hard disk, floppy, continuous tape, solid state, etc.)

Edited March 26, 2016 by Yaivenov

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

YES! I am all over this suggestion.
I cramp all my actions into the abort-mode when I upgraded my SPH/VAB the first time.

Feels a little ... well stupid.
Just to give the game an advantage for upgrading it further.