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Devnote Tuesday: Back to Work!

SQUAD

By SQUAD
in KSP1 The Daily Kerbal

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regex

regex

Posted
Posted
Since it seems that now major parts of the code are being redone, will we ever see an update that fixes the ocean lag problem? It has been there for as long as I can remember playing, and it is so noticeable that I can hardly believe it's been ignored for so long.
Holy crap, so much this... Rendering a planet inside another planet is nothing but a recipe for disaster...
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sumghai

sumghai

Posted
Posted
Felipe (HarvesteR):

-snip-

That aside, we’re also going over shaders. U5 changed the way shaders are compiled, so several of our own shaders broke in various ways, from minor alpha blending issues, to straight up not compiling at all.. We have our work cut out for us now to go through all those problematic shaders, and convince them to work again.

-snip-

I presume this means an update to KSP PartTools for add-on authors is on the horizon? People making add-on parts will need to re-export their models using these new shaders.

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razark

razark

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Does anyone that has knowledge of these sorts of things want to give their opinion on how this update to U5 will affect mods?

I've got a few older ones that haven't been updated in a while, but they're still working. I'm guessing that a major code rewrite is likely to break things.

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sumghai

sumghai

Posted
Posted
Does anyone that has knowledge of these sorts of things want to give their opinion on how this update to U5 will affect mods?

I've got a few older ones that haven't been updated in a while, but they're still working. I'm guessing that a major code rewrite is likely to break things.

As I've noted in my previous post, mod parts will need to be re-exported using the new/revised KSP shaders Harvester mentioned.

This is of course dependent on whether Mu can get a new version of PartTools out (along with various fixes).

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juanml82

juanml82

Posted
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No, you're just talking about the wrong things. Typical reentry speeds on Kerbin are sub 3km/s (you can get a bit more when coming back from Minmus, but whatever...) and, with the current drag and heating you're never going to build up enough speed heat to really damage anything beyond small parts. Jool is entirely different because you're entering at high speeds (usually much greater that 3km/s) from interplanetary transfer and have to scrub a lot of delta-V to aerocapture, which means your parts are subject to a lot more heating most especially because you're in a thinner atmosphere for much, much longer than reentry on Kerbin. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that aerocapture on Jool from an interplanetary transfer would be fairly close to actual reentry here on Earth, at least higher up.

So, yeah, it boils down to the fact that Kerbin is stupid tiny, like pretty much everything else in this game.

Mmm... I've read someone (NathanKell, Klaw? I don't remember) claiming the issue with reentry heating isn't the height of the atmosphere but the pods crossection. Or something like that. So the question is, was it tried with a modded higher atmosphere or is that still speculation?

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Eric S

Eric S

Posted
Posted
We've had regular updates take 8 months, and this update is rewriting or tweaking a LOT.

Even if you don't count 0.23.5, which added asteroids and the claw and all the support systems for that and redid the way parts connected, we've only had one update, not updates, that took 8 months. To be honest, if they had called 0.23.5 0.24 instead, I don't think anyone would have really felt shorted by calling it a release except for the devs having talked about 0.24 features that didn't make it into that version.

screw that, give us .90 back. u know, when the game wasn't all about just getting your stuff into orbit but getting your stations, bases and refuelers done?

Sorry, not interested in going back to nosecones making rockets perform worse, a flat structural panel having as much aerodynamic drag edge forward as it does flat-face forward, or a large empty fuel tank having the same terminal velocity as the same tank full of fuel. Each one of those is a big violation of physics that I knew in high school if not earlier.

I've put up stations, bases and refuelers in 1.0.2, and launching them wasn't particularly challenging as long as I adapted to the changed aerodynamics.

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Meecrob

Meecrob

Posted
Posted
screw that, give us .90 back. u know, when the game wasn't all about just getting your stuff into orbit but getting your stations, bases and refuelers done?

Why don't you just play .90? It was never taken away from you, so why do you need to demand for it back?

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regex

regex

Posted
Posted
Mmm... I've read someone (NathanKell, Klaw? I don't remember) claiming the issue with reentry heating isn't the height of the atmosphere but the pods crossection. Or something like that. So the question is, was it tried with a modded higher atmosphere or is that still speculation?
There are a lot of things that go into reentry heating but, as I understand it, one of the biggest issues is the sheer lack of speed (and I can confirm that by performing reentries from 75km apoapsis as opposed to renetries from beyond Minmus apoapsis). Because Kerbin is so stupid tiny your orbital velocity is so low, even with its artificially increased gravity. However, reentry heating was additionally reduced because of increased pod drag in 1.0.2, which meant that you slowed faster and thus experienced less overall heat.
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Skalou

Skalou

Posted
Posted

Great to known everyone has landed safely and then the first news: Unity 5!!! woaahouuuu!

I don't worry for mods, i think the team know they are as important as the main game for most of us and the success of the game! and i'm sure they will do the best to keep thinks compatibles if possible.

Maybe an idiot sugestion but for asteroids why not use several convex colliders? performances? iv'e done this for a cargo bay i designed and it work well. (ksp 0.90)

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Jarin

Jarin

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So, yeah, it boils down to the fact that Kerbin is stupid tiny, like pretty much everything else in this game.

I'm rather a fan of "stupid tiny" for this game, but is there a reasonable way to make re-entry at least interesting? I mean, not needing a separate heat shield when dropping from LKO is one thing, but I rather think one should be necessary if doing a direct return from Mun or (especially) Minmus. Bonus if doing this is possible while still allowing aerocapture around other bodies with reasonable precautions being made.

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SmallFatFetus

SmallFatFetus

Posted
Posted
No, you're just talking about the wrong things. Typical reentry speeds on Kerbin are sub 3km/s (you can get a bit more when coming back from Minmus, but whatever...) and, with the current drag and heating you're never going to build up enough speed heat to really damage anything beyond small parts. Jool is entirely different because you're entering at high speeds (usually much greater that 3km/s) from interplanetary transfer and have to scrub a lot of delta-V to aerocapture, which means your parts are subject to a lot more heating most especially because you're in a thinner atmosphere for much, much longer than reentry on Kerbin. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that aerocapture on Jool from an interplanetary transfer would be fairly close to actual reentry here on Earth, at least higher up.

So, yeah, it boils down to the fact that Kerbin is stupid tiny, like pretty much everything else in this game.

How are you holding up without RSS?

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DMagic

DMagic

Posted
Posted (edited)
well.. all the mods that have a UI thing will break... :P

No, it shouldn't break them any more than the upgrade to Unity 4.6 did. The UI updates are primarily from Unity 4.6, not Unity 5, and KSP is already using Unity 4.6. I would love to know more about the 4.6 UI, but most of the info I've been able to find relates to the Unity editor, not creating a UI entirely through code, which is what we have to do.

The problem is that the pre-4.6 UI is total garbage and is horribly inefficient. It really isn't meant for anything more than settings menus or things like that which aren't actually displayed all of the time. There are/were a bunch of workarounds, like EZGUI that KSP uses, but the change to Unity 4.6 means that those aren't really necessary.

A lot of the more complex UI addons would probably benefit from moving to the 4.6 system, but the legacy UI still works fine.

Edit: Also..... Why not here?

Edited by DMagic
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regex

regex

Posted
Posted
I'm rather a fan of "stupid tiny" for this game, but is there a reasonable way to make re-entry at least interesting? I mean, not needing a separate heat shield when dropping from LKO is one thing, but I rather think one should be necessary if doing a direct return from Mun or (especially) Minmus. Bonus if doing this is possible while still allowing aerocapture around other bodies with reasonable precautions being made.
Not the way you want it there, unless you're able to have a heating multiplier per planet, which is kind of inconsistent. I mean, you can make it interesting for Kerbin but then that messes up all kinds of other stuff in the game. Change one thing you change them all.
How are you holding up without RSS?
Just fine. KSP stock is actually really good right now. This is the game I signed up for, something I'd be happy to hand to my kid. I'm perfectly happy waiting and working on all the Real* mods while playing mostly-stock.
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NathanKell

NathanKell

Posted
Posted

Reentry heating is proportional to the cube of velocity. You can see how 2000^3 is a whole lot less than 7400^3 (reentry from low orbit for Kerbin and Earth, respectively). That's a factor of about 50.

Thing is, if you just change things so that Kerbin reentry == Earth reentry in terms of heat, well, what happens to an interplanetary aerocapture? That's already 5+ km/sec entry velocity, maybe even 7 or more. Now suddenly interplanetary capture is really, really deadly if it started out at Earth-reentry-level deadly and has been increased fifty times! Plus you just made flying a spaceplane at Mach 5 (1500m/s, 42% of reentry flux) 50 times hotter. Let alone spaceplane reentry, which everyone's been complaining about at the same time as saying heat in general is too low. :P

An alternate approach is to play with the exponent. But that actually makes that problem worse in some ways--spaceplanes won't be affected as much (say, increase the exponent such that 1500m/s has double the heat it did, 2000 has triple, 3000 has even more...), but interplanetary aerocaptures might become many, many times what they used to be, requiring utterly magic heat shielding that make regular reentries trivial.

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basic.syntax

basic.syntax

Posted
Posted (edited)
...a heating multiplier per planet, which is kind of inconsistent. I mean, you can make it interesting for Kerbin but then that messes up all kinds of other stuff in the game. Change one thing you [have to] change them all.
[not really disagreeing with you] If 1.0.3 helps smooth over some parts inconsistencies, then, I think, simple tweaking of larger variables to suit player preferences, will have the desired effects.

[Edit: added]

Edit: Also..... Why not here?
Edited by basic.syntax
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