The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge - 1.0 to 1.3

[sdj64]

I've got a working design being assembled in LKO. It involves a triple Sr Docking port for a sturdy attachment.

Only 2 of the pairs are properly attaching and I'm not sure how to get the other 2 pairs to work properly. You can see the situation here.

If you're going with a puller design, two ports might be enough unless your payload is very heavy. Your last picture looks good though. Often the magnetic force of the third port will help keep it in place even if it's not fully docked together.

Is B9 Procedural Wing : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104966-1-0-2-B9-Aerospace-Procedural-Parts-0-40-Updated-09-06-15 allowed?

I can't test it right now, but if it's not lighter weight or better fuel-mass ratio than a stock wing, it would be allowed. Looking at the config file two things that confuse me are that it has 4 times the lift of the stock Wing Strake for the same mass, and its base mass for the fuel tank module is -1. Since it's procedural these values are probably not the same as what would show up in game.

[Halo_003]

I see you have allowed Procedural parts and stock fuel switch, does that mean that Interstellar Fuel Switcher is also okay? I believe it is essentially the same as Stock Fuel Switch, I haven't used that one though. In my case, I've used it to switch some of the FTP and KW Rocketry tanks to LF only.

Either way, I support the change to allowing PP and SFS because I have always though it's pretty dumb not to have these features in stock, I have been designing a ship with landers over the past few weeks but was planning to do a standalone mission instead of this as at the time fuel switching was not allowed.

I am currently gearing up with a mothership, multiple landers, a LOT of dV, and a special surprise I have not seen anyone else do so far.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Halo_003

[HoloYolo]

Doing this one after Apollo Applications.

[astrobond]

Hi sdj64 and all

Here is my new V1.04 mission for this new "ULTIMATE JOOL-5 CHALLENGE Continuation for KSP 1.0!":

The Plan:

Make a "small" ship for Valentina, of less than 40 Tons, able to do the Level 1 mission (and maybe a LEVEL 1 SUB-CHALLENGE: LOWEST MASS OPTIMIZATION), able to fit in the cargo of my new MK3 SSTO Plane, and able to go back Kerbin with a maximum reusable parts in a single mission.

Add some satellites to launch in orbit of the visited planets to make more $ ^^.

The Mission:

It was the hardest mission i made on KSP.... low TWR is really harder to manage than i thought !

I had a really bad control for docking... should have add an "Advanced inline stab" to the big Ion Ship...

No Jool aerobreaking possible for the ship, Really hard Laythe and Kerbin aerobreaking, multiple gravity assists to do to find a way to complete the mission... pfiuuuu !!!

I had to change my flight plans all the time, (even if i had no real flight plans lol) and hopefully the 9 big ion fuel tanks were not too much...

At the end, i had not enough D/V to go to Bop with the mother ship, so impossible to launch the Bop Satellite

I made the choice to Park the Ion mother ship in Pol Orbit and to go to Bop with the little Ion ship only to be sure to bring back the mother ship to Kerbin...

And... just at the time of landing back home, i had the "Complete the ultimate Jool 5 Challenge" contract from the mission control !!!??? argllllllllllllll.... lol

The results:

-Flags and small Science on Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Pol and Bop.

-Satellites deployed on Laythe, Vall, Tylo and Pol Orbites.

-More than 25 years of travel........

-8578 science points at the end.

-Final cost: 824325-132492-360045=331788 $

KSP1.04, Full Stock + KER

Craft File: Air Liner One + Jool Tour

Crew: 1 Kerbal

The Albums:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Fly safe with Valentina !

Edited July 26, 2015 by astrobond

[Halo_003]

Wow, <40T is nuts to do this... My mission is not exactly minimalistic, but it weighs in at >1400T before leaving LKO. I have everything built except my Tylo lander, I am not sure yet how I want to approach it.

[Speeding Mullet]

Hi there! Good to see this challenge revived for >1.0.X. I've previously run the challenge twice, once under stock conditions, and then a Kethane run which i'd like to make the focus of this post (and not because of the use of Kethane, as if I choose to I will use the stock ore system).

My question(s) therefore revolve around the use of certain mods, so would humbly ask you to take a scan through the following and pass or fail me as per your rules to which I will comply. I've checked through the challenge and cannot find the responses required to answer my questions...

Here's my challenge link to the "expedition style" Deep Jool Kethane Expedition - A hideously bloated points gathering tour It's quite a good read so feel free to run through it and have a laugh, or use it for ideas etc.

Mechjeb is all good so we won't dwell on that - I'm actually planning on not using it beyond delta v readouts.

As you can see I have made pretty extensive use of the LLL mod, which Ziv was comfortable with despite them being on the "banned" list. I used the dead-weight rule, i.e. I only used the LLL mod to add aesthetic parts to my ship. The exception was the Kethane Miner which used the linear aerospike engines, and the rovers which used LLL body parts and cabs just because they looked better and again fitted in with the aesthetic of my ship. Everything else (tanks engines etc) was all stock.

So the questions are:

1) Please can you rule on the LLL mod specifically (I am not using SXT which is already marked as under review) I am happy not to use the engines if they are known to be OP, but I'd like to use the mod for aesthetic dead weight

2) I'd like to use Infernal robotics, mostly for the same reasons - I like twiddly lights and kanadarms, and cool hydraulic toys to make the screenshots more pretty and things generally more funky and aesthetic. Please can I?

3) Tweakscale - I saw that scale-ability mods are not allowed already so it's not a repeat question, it again comes down to dead weight. Can an exception be made for genuinely aesthetic parts like the millions of twiddly search lights and dead weight trusses etc etc that just make the ship heavier (i.e. not engines or gearboxes?) but look cooler?

4) Tweakscale - OK OK I know I'm pushing this a little - Can I tweak-scale a heatshield the size of the moon to accommodate how huge my ships normally are? Before heat as you will see in my challenge entry I just used a bunch of structural panels, but using 8 heat shields seems a bit sad when Mullet Dyne Advanced Operations are capable of up scaling a heat shield specifically (not engines or fuel tanks for some strange reason) to proportions suitable for reentering a bungalow from plaid speed.

Maybe Tweakscale etc can be allowed in these aesthetic instances, but strictly not for power or fuel parts?

Would be interested to read your thoughts on the above. In the meantime consider me an applicant!!

Cheers

SM

[sdj64]

Hi sdj64 and all

Here is my new V1.04 mission for this new "ULTIMATE JOOL-5 CHALLENGE Continuation for KSP 1.0!":

The Plan:

Make a "small" ship for Valentina, of less than 40 Tons, able to do the Level 1 mission (and maybe a LEVEL 1 SUB-CHALLENGE: LOWEST MASS OPTIMIZATION), able to fit in the cargo of my new MK3 SSTO Plane, and able to go back Kerbin with a maximum reusable parts in a single mission.

Add some satellites to launch in orbit of the visited planets to make more $ ^^.

The Mission:

It was the hardest mission i made on KSP.... low TWR is really harder to manage than i thought !

I had a really bad control for docking... should have add an "Advanced inline stab" to the big Ion Ship...

No Jool aerobreaking possible for the ship, Really hard Laythe and Kerbin aerobreaking, multiple gravity assists to do to find a way to complete the mission... pfiuuuu !!!

I had to change my flight plans all the time, (even if i had no real flight plans lol) and hopefully the 9 big ion fuel tanks were not too much...

At the end, i had not enough D/V to go to Bop with the mother ship, so impossible to launch the Bop Satellite

I made the choice to Park the Ion mother ship in Pol Orbit and to go to Bop with the little Ion ship only to be sure to bring back the mother ship to Kerbin...

And... just at the time of landing back home, i had the "Complete the ultimate Jool 5 Challenge" contract from the mission control !!!??? argllllllllllllll.... lol

The results:

-Flags and small Science on Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Pol and Bop.

-Satellites deployed on Laythe, Vall, Tylo and Pol Orbites.

-More than 25 years of travel........

-8578 science points at the end.

-Final cost: 824325-132492-360045=331788 $

KSP1.04, Full Stock + KER

Craft File: Air Liner One + Jool Tour

Crew: 1 Kerbal

The Albums:

http://imgur.com/a/nxpDO

http://imgur.com/a/rszQa

Fly safe with Valentina !

Wow, great mission. I have to look at it in detail a bit more before I accept it. Great job fitting it in the cargo bay of the plane, but it looks like a bit of clipping was necessary, but not bad at least for the Tylo and Laythe landers . Good use of batteries for the ions to work out at Jool. Can I see a well lit shot of your Vall lander, specifically where that Oscar B fuel tank is? It looks clipped from the screenshots you have but I want to make sure.

Hi there! Good to see this challenge revived for >1.0.X. I've previously run the challenge twice, once under stock conditions, and then a Kethane run which i'd like to make the focus of this post (and not because of the use of Kethane, as if I choose to I will use the stock ore system).

My question(s) therefore revolve around the use of certain mods, so would humbly ask you to take a scan through the following and pass or fail me as per your rules to which I will comply. I've checked through the challenge and cannot find the responses required to answer my questions...

Here's my challenge link to the "expedition style" Deep Jool Kethane Expedition - A hideously bloated points gathering tour It's quite a good read so feel free to run through it and have a laugh, or use it for ideas etc.

Mechjeb is all good so we won't dwell on that - I'm actually planning on not using it beyond delta v readouts.

As you can see I have made pretty extensive use of the LLL mod, which Ziv was comfortable with despite them being on the "banned" list. I used the dead-weight rule, i.e. I only used the LLL mod to add aesthetic parts to my ship. The exception was the Kethane Miner which used the linear aerospike engines, and the rovers which used LLL body parts and cabs just because they looked better and again fitted in with the aesthetic of my ship. Everything else (tanks engines etc) was all stock.

So the questions are:

1) Please can you rule on the LLL mod specifically (I am not using SXT which is already marked as under review) I am happy not to use the engines if they are known to be OP, but I'd like to use the mod for aesthetic dead weight

2) I'd like to use Infernal robotics, mostly for the same reasons - I like twiddly lights and kanadarms, and cool hydraulic toys to make the screenshots more pretty and things generally more funky and aesthetic. Please can I?

3) Tweakscale - I saw that scale-ability mods are not allowed already so it's not a repeat question, it again comes down to dead weight. Can an exception be made for genuinely aesthetic parts like the millions of twiddly search lights and dead weight trusses etc etc that just make the ship heavier (i.e. not engines or gearboxes?) but look cooler?

4) Tweakscale - OK OK I know I'm pushing this a little - Can I tweak-scale a heatshield the size of the moon to accommodate how huge my ships normally are? Before heat as you will see in my challenge entry I just used a bunch of structural panels, but using 8 heat shields seems a bit sad when Mullet Dyne Advanced Operations are capable of up scaling a heat shield specifically (not engines or fuel tanks for some strange reason) to proportions suitable for reentering a bungalow from plaid speed.

Maybe Tweakscale etc can be allowed in these aesthetic instances, but strictly not for power or fuel parts?

Would be interested to read your thoughts on the above. In the meantime consider me an applicant!!

Cheers

SM

LLL actually looks pretty balanced, aside from the engines. I would try to stay away from Tweakscale. Especially for the heat shields, these are design challenges that you and everyone attempting this challenge has to deal with. Go ahead with your mods if you can prove they were strictly aesthetic, but improving the ship's performance or taking away an essential part of the challenge (aerobraking difficulty for the heat shield) would not be allowed. For example, don't use IR for making a lander fold into a smaller space when you couldn't do the same with stock. You could try to use a wide short fairing for your heat shield, since those can expand to much larger sizes and are fairly air-resistant. Not sure about their heat tolerance, though.

[astrobond]

Wow, great mission. I have to look at it in detail a bit more before I accept it. Great job fitting it in the cargo bay of the plane, but it looks like a bit of clipping was necessary, but not bad at least for the Tylo and Laythe landers . Good use of batteries for the ions to work out at Jool. Can I see a well lit shot of your Vall lander, specifically where that Oscar B fuel tank is? It looks clipped from the screenshots you have but I want to make sure.

Hi sdj64 and thank's for getting a look to my mission

Yes i had to make some clipping to fit the spaceship in the caro bay, so the tanks are really "close" together on the Laythe Lander lol !

BTW i forgot that clipping was not allowed, and i have some Oscar B fuel tanks "a lot" clipped (only about 1/4 out of the parent tank on the Laythe Lander and on the Vall Lander i forgot to activate before de-orbit as you have seen in the pictures) even if they are all externally clickable

There is also a PBX-750 xenon tank a lot "compressed" in the center of the other xenon tanks !

And the most clipped parts are the PB-NUK on the satellites and between the Clamp-O-Tron JR and the Lander Can... almost invisible xD

Really "more than clipping borderline"... It's up to you

The rules are the rules, no problem if this mission is not accepted, i have the badge for a KSP v0.90 mission

Just wanted to try in the 1.04v...

Fly safe with Valentina !

[Speeding Mullet]

LLL actually looks pretty balanced, aside from the engines. I would try to stay away from Tweakscale. Especially for the heat shields, these are design challenges that you and everyone attempting this challenge has to deal with. Go ahead with your mods if you can prove they were strictly aesthetic, but improving the ship's performance or taking away an essential part of the challenge (aerobraking difficulty for the heat shield) would not be allowed. For example, don't use IR for making a lander fold into a smaller space when you couldn't do the same with stock. You could try to use a wide short fairing for your heat shield, since those can expand to much larger sizes and are fairly air-resistant. Not sure about their heat tolerance, though.

Hi sdj64 - Thanks for the advice and guidance. As per instructions I will go totally stock unless provable with evidence that the mods (LLL, Tweakscale and IR) do nothing apart from increase the dead weight, or are purely for aesthetics, or both.

anything I'm not sure of I'll post a small pic and question, but I should be good, I think I am inline with the rules as they stand now. Hey if not, maybe I can have an honourable mention or "gatecrasher" entry

Many thanks and looking forward to toiling for countless hours over this once again!

SM

[Nefrums]

I'm thinking of doing a low mass entry. What mass should i aim for?

The <10t entries in the old thread don't really seem viable anymore.

Edit: I managed to design a 30t ship that might be able to compleate the challange. :-)

Edited August 3, 2015 by Nefrums

[sdj64]

Hi sdj64 and thank's for getting a look to my mission

Yes i had to make some clipping to fit the spaceship in the caro bay, so the tanks are really "close" together on the Laythe Lander lol !

BTW i forgot that clipping was not allowed, and i have some Oscar B fuel tanks "a lot" clipped (only about 1/4 out of the parent tank on the Laythe Lander and on the Vall Lander i forgot to activate before de-orbit as you have seen in the pictures) even if they are all externally clickable

There is also a PBX-750 xenon tank a lot "compressed" in the center of the other xenon tanks !

And the most clipped parts are the PB-NUK on the satellites and between the Clamp-O-Tron JR and the Lander Can... almost invisible xD

Really "more than clipping borderline"... It's up to you

The rules are the rules, no problem if this mission is not accepted, i have the badge for a KSP v0.90 mission

Just wanted to try in the 1.04v...

Fly safe with Valentina !

While you did have an impressive and well thought out mission I have to say you are disqualified for clipping. A shame since your mission would probably stand as a competitive low mass entry too.

I'm thinking of doing a low mass entry. What mass should i aim for?

The <10t entries in the old thread don't really seem viable anymore.

Edit: I managed to design a 30t ship that might be able to compleate the challange. :-)

That would be very impressive, to do it in 30 tons. You're right that the nerf of jets and the new aerodynamics killed the viability of those sub 10 ton entries.

[astrobond]

While you did have an impressive and well thought out mission I have to say you are disqualified for clipping. A shame since your mission would probably stand as a competitive low mass entry too.

That would be very impressive, to do it in 30 tons. You're right that the nerf of jets and the new aerodynamics killed the viability of those sub 10 ton entries.

Hi sdj64

That's ok, as I said, I didn't remember clipping was not allowed... It's my fault xD

BTW, back to the drawing board for a low mass entry too !

Less than 30 tons on the Launchpad with the launcher ? pfiuuuu... I think this will be really hard to do... I'm in a hurry to see the Nefrums mission

(I think i'll ask to Valentina to be on a diet !!!)

Fly safe with Val !

[Nefrums]

yep. latest prototype is 29.6t on the runway. It can get to LKO with what I think is needed for the mission, but if it can complete the challenge however... that remains to be seen.

[Nefrums]

As always I bring to much fuel. I'm aborting my low mas attempt after first landing as It is not fun if it is not close on dV.

After removing some fuel and redesigning a few parts I have a new even lighter ship to try the challenge with.

It is fun that you in theory can get to Jool with the same dV it takes to get to the mun. It is a bit tricky and required me to do 10+ small (less than 10 dV) correction burns, but it worked.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Nefrums

[astrobond]

As always I bring to much fuel. I'm aborting my low mas attempt after first landing as It is not fun if it is not close on dV.

After removing some fuel and redesigning a few parts I have a new even lighter ship to try the challenge with.

It is fun that you in theory can get to Jool with the same dV it takes to get to the mun. It is a bit tricky and required me to do 10+ small (less than 10 dV) correction burns, but it worked.

OMG, I understand why you are under 30 Tons, that's not only a low mass ship, that's a a low dV mission... Excellent idea

I have worked on my landers to reduce the weight (around 3.1 Tons for Tylo and 3.2 Tons for Laythe), but with a "standard" Jool travel, really hard to be under 29Tons on the Runway...

Go back to find a better way to reach Jool and some Kg to remove from the mothership

Still in a hurry to see your mission Nefrums !

Fly safe with Val

[Nefrums]

I'm also at about 3.1 t for the tylo lander, my Laythe lander is a bit heavier than yours, but the parts of that lander does other thing beside landing on Laythe.

You should look at some of the mission reports PLAD have made. I've tried to copy his Kerbin->Eve->Kerbin->Kerbin->Jool route, it saves about 1k dV.

[astrobond]

Thank's a lot Nefrums

I'll get a look !

[Nefrums]

I'll might as well share the mission report I started on for the now abandoned attempt, It is not well commented: http://imgur.com/a/SXhuV

[astrobond]

Very nice !!!

I do love your new Ion scooter xD

Thank's for sharing

I am still trying to find a way to reach LKO... my fairing is a little more large than yours, hard to push in space grrr...

[Nefrums]

I got my 25t ship to Jool yesterday. Will start the landings tonight.

[astrobond]

arglll... almost the same here lol (on escape trajectory to Eve for the 1st flyby after 3 aborted multiple burns, and I hope I will reach Jool, that's not sure...)

[Nefrums]

It will be exiting to see who will get the lowest mass and if all the landers work

Did you go with the larger faring? Or did you do like me and build thin landers?

[astrobond]

It will be exiting to see who will get the lowest mass and if all the landers work

Did you go with the larger faring? Or did you do like me and build thin landers?

I Reduced a little the width of my fairing, but kept my "standard 1.25 chair landers".

Here is my ship ^^

But the problem is: Will I be able to make the mission with it ??? I'm really not so good to find a low dV path after my Eve flyby... I need to make other tries tonight... xD

(first try, at least 400 m/s of multiples nodes corrections to reach Jool pfff.... Need to improve my skill to keep enough dV... Hopefully Alt F5 is used a lot !!!)

[Nefrums]

Nice! about a ton lower mass than me!

I have been working on a MK3 design with only one rapier but i could not get it to LKO.

[astrobond]

Nice! about a ton lower mass than me!

I have been working on a MK3 design with only one rapier but i could not get it to LKO.

Thank's Nefrums But the mission is not achieved !!! lol

Also tried a Turbojet/Rapier version almost ok, but my best result is with those two Rapiers in airbreathing mode and wings until 35km, decouple, and one Rapier left in rocket mode to LKO + ions to circularize.

Edited August 11, 2015 by astrobond