[1.0.4]Civilian Population 1.7.5.1 (Update to 1.0.5 in Progress)

[Admac]

If it hasn't been suggested, Miner/geologist would be a decent spec too! + output to mines

[TonyC]

Hello, do you think it would be possible to integrate your old Stanford Torus mod into Civilian Population ? It would make things much more exciting ingame (and would allow incredible cinematics !)

[rabidninjawombat]

If it hasn't been suggested, Miner/geologist would be a decent spec too! + output to mines

Good suggestion i Like it , should be implementable

Hello, do you think it would be possible to integrate your old Stanford Torus mod into Civilian Population ? It would make things much more exciting ingame (and would allow incredible cinematics !)

MichaelHester07, the original dev of the Stanford Torus did give me all the orginal assets for the Stanford Torus mod, ive been contemplating reviving it (just have not gotten around to it) it's plug-in requires a bit of updating.

Personally I wouldn't want it to integrate it directly into CivPop, id prefer it stand on its own. but would make it complementary (i.e. give it the ability to house civilians ,etc if you have Civ Pop installed )

[Admac]

I've ran into a few issues as I fall deeper into this mod.

I've made an MKS mining colony on Moho and that worked well (Old hat for me now!).

With that I made and supplied an EPL orbital shipyard, and with that I've made a Civpop station.

The station is Medium big, food and lodging for 480, 2 theatres a university and LS tanks for 20+ years. I have done the first loading mission, and have 4 more planned/en route to top up all the tanks and get all my population there. Getting 250 tons per trip to Moho is also trickier than I expected.

Things that would make this more fun;

-A patch for the sweet giant drill that extracts MKS resources (MetalicOre/Minerals/Substrate/Water)

-A passenger module. Right now I am shipping 2 apartments out to Moho on every transfer window to fill up my station. A slimmer form factor or something a bit more elegant would be welcome. Maybe have something that makes it unattractive in stations (no rent? no reproduction?). Maybe moving an apt block is a reasonable thing for a 200 day transfer. /shrug

Is the life support lossy? Right now I only have 85/480 on my station, but the farms are all listed as 0.45% effective and I seem to be losing water. It might be mass balanced (I haven't checked) but I know that nothing runs without water. I'm using USI LS which might be the root of it, since there isn't much use for water other than net new supplies. Not a big deal normally, but shipping water to Moho is a pain, since there is none on the planet in this seed. or maybe ever, it is 450c there.

Based on my experience with the difficulties of getting civvies and supplies to the station, it almost feels like I'd have been further ahead just building and loading it in Kerbin's SOI, and then figuring out how to get a 2500 ton station loaded with 4500 M/S of DV.

As far as the vagueness of my LS bug report, I apologize, and will get more details as next time I boot it up.

[rabidninjawombat]

I've ran into a few issues as I fall deeper into this mod.

I've made an MKS mining colony on Moho and that worked well (Old hat for me now!).

With that I made and supplied an EPL orbital shipyard, and with that I've made a Civpop station.

The station is Medium big, food and lodging for 480, 2 theatres a university and LS tanks for 20+ years. I have done the first loading mission, and have 4 more planned/en route to top up all the tanks and get all my population there. Getting 250 tons per trip to Moho is also trickier than I expected.

Things that would make this more fun;

-A patch for the sweet giant drill that extracts MKS resources (MetalicOre/Minerals/Substrate/Water)

-A passenger module. Right now I am shipping 2 apartments out to Moho on every transfer window to fill up my station. A slimmer form factor or something a bit more elegant would be welcome. Maybe have something that makes it unattractive in stations (no rent? no reproduction?). Maybe moving an apt block is a reasonable thing for a 200 day transfer. /shrug

Is the life support lossy? Right now I only have 85/480 on my station, but the farms are all listed as 0.45% effective and I seem to be losing water. It might be mass balanced (I haven't checked) but I know that nothing runs without water. I'm using USI LS which might be the root of it, since there isn't much use for water other than net new supplies. Not a big deal normally, but shipping water to Moho is a pain, since there is none on the planet in this seed. or maybe ever, it is 450c there.

Based on my experience with the difficulties of getting civvies and supplies to the station, it almost feels like I'd have been further ahead just building and loading it in Kerbin's SOI, and then figuring out how to get a 2500 ton station loaded with 4500 M/S of DV.

As far as the vagueness of my LS bug report, I apologize, and will get more details as next time I boot it up.

Thanks for the feedback

Regarding the MKS resources in the drill, no problem. You can easily add those resource by module manager, Ill put together one and attach it to this post, shortly (ill include it in the next patch for those that are interested) Also regarding MKS, I should also be including some configs to add logistics support Civpop parts, to ease transfers of resources.

Regarding Life support: Your using USI-LS per your post, i assume. Ill double check the numbers on life support production. (I havent in a while since Rovers last USI-LS patch and i need to make sure everything is good) I couldn't tell via your post if you station was orbital or ground based. But Orbital stations are gonna be slightly lossy, they will not be closed loop, you need some input of water and substrate occasionally. (though they recycling rate is fairly high) Ground based stations obviously you can solve this problem with the drills. I also want to, in the near future include some sort of Capstone module (say a recycling plant?) that would make you closed loop.

Lastly regarding civilian transportation. I am finalizing the model and textures on a civilian transportation part ( i talked about this a few pages back) That will transport 50 civilians at time, but its significantly smaller than the 50 civ Apartment, and are stackabled for ease of movment. Think of it as putting the civilians in cold storage, they wont require food, but the modules will require large amounts of electricity and will be somewhat expensive, they cant be recruited from either. Once connected to a base, the civilians will be woken, and start consuming supplies.

Hopefully this answers all your questions

Edited October 19, 2015 by rabidninjawombat

[Admac]

Brilliant!

Thanks for the drill part!

I read that older post about the crew transfer, so that's exciting! once in space it's kind of a non issue, but it's a bit of an aerodynamic pain to boost Apartment blocks up.

The Logistics hub works a treat, and I was happy to see I could shuffle civvies that way, which is a lot easier than my fears of docking a 350 ton ship with a 2000 ton station.

It is orbital, mainly to show up those jerks that think 120 tons in LKO is a huge station over in that grand orbital station challenge.

The other thing I noticed is that it isn't consuming my fertilizer. I assume the design intent is to make it match the current USI LS modes of;

Greenhouse mode .5 Mulch = .45 Organics

Agroponics mode .5 mulch + .025 fertilizer = .525 organics

and partially unrelated is

Cultivation mode 1 water + 1 substrate = 1 organic (Mass lossy, but that's where new food comes from!)

From;

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/MK-II-%E2%80%93-Life-Support

I assume since the Civvies consume half resources in TAC, the same scaling would apply for USI.

Great mod and I'm a big fan. A lot less laggy than I feared, but even my station is under 40 parts so that less than a lot of small science landers.

[Profit-]

Brilliant!

It is orbital, mainly to show up those jerks that think 120 tons in LKO is a huge station over in that grand orbital station challenge.

120 tons? What is that a station for ants?!??!!

The one I pushed to Eve had a mass of 6000 tons I think.

[Admac]

Enter the challenge!

My medium station is on track to make a mockery of the current leaderboard, and it's barely 3000 tons!

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100054-The-Grand-Orbital-Space-Station-Challenge

[rabidninjawombat]

120 tons? What is that a station for ants?!??!!

The one I pushed to Eve had a mass of 6000 tons I think.

Enter the challenge!

My medium station is on track to make a mockery of the current leaderboard, and it's barely 3000 tons!

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100054-The-Grand-Orbital-Space-Station-Challenge

Yea 120 tons does seem awfully tiny Even in stock i built larger stations than that.

@Admac, sorry about the delay, Here was that config you were asking about (it adds Minerals and MetallicOre to the two CivPop drills) Drop it in the NetherdyneAerospace\CivilianManagment\Configs Folder. Really anywhere is fine, but if you make sure to put it there it will get updated if i need to update it.)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19908938/USI-Resources.cfg

New update is on track for soonish

[Admac]

Thanks for the update and to config file!

[Profit-]

Enter the challenge!

My medium station is on track to make a mockery of the current leaderboard, and it's barely 3000 tons!

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100054-The-Grand-Orbital-Space-Station-Challenge

LOL I dunno, I have my orbital shipyard, with metal and water it weighs in at 42,640 tons (about as much as a smaller aircraft carrier) .... It lands and collects ore from minmus and takes back off into space. Fully loaded it has a Kerbin TWR of 2 with all the engines and reactors on, but usually I just stick with the MHD because it is more efficient and has enough TWR to lift off of minmus. This sucker is brutal and can create 10 very large stations in orbit before it needs to land again to resupply with metal. It has a 32 Kerbal work crew, 30 in workshops 2 in that EPL on the nose. It has a cost of 140 million monetary units (if I would not have built it with my EPL lander on minmus) and produces nearly 9 terawatts of power from it's reactors. Using welding I kept the part numbers down 107. I dont know if they are ready to have a mockery made this bad on them.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Profit-

[Admac]

Well I wrapped up my Civpop Grand Orbital Station!

Things I noticed about Civpop

Needing water around a planet with no water is brutal. The current USILS model uses lots of water for both modes, and gives none of it back. It's also Gainy, in that water+ substrate adds up to more mass of supplies than input materials. And mulch is generated quicker than it's consumed. I partially offset this by using US Aeroponics to supplement production, but another Civpop USILS balance pass might be called for.

My 80 part station ran smooth and perfect, but my 175 part station was weirdly laggy. The frame rate was lowish but fine (Like 15 fps) but there was massive 2-3 second lag on selection of a module or trying to access a menu. To be fair, no one really needs something that massive.

The VAB is a nightmare on the large station for that exact reason

The IVAs totally took me by surprise with their overwhelming awesomeness!

The giant landing gears are incredible! I used them wherever it made sense, mass well spent

Population growth was slowish, but that makes sense to me. The upcoming crew transporter is going to be appreciated

Awesome mod and a very positive experience!

Edited October 26, 2015 by Admac

[rabidninjawombat]

Well I wrapped up my Civpop Grand Orbital Station!

Things I noticed about Civpop

Needing water around a planet with no water is brutal. The current USILS model uses lots of water for both modes, and gives none of it back. It's also Gainy, in that water+ substrate adds up to more mass of supplies than input materials. And mulch is generated quicker than it's consumed. I partially offset this by using US Aeroponics to supplement production, but another Civpop USILS balance pass might be called for.

My 80 part station ran smooth and perfect, but my 175 part station was weirdly laggy. The frame rate was lowish but fine (Like 15 fps) but there was massive 2-3 second lag on selection of a module or trying to access a menu. To be fair, no one really needs something that massive.

The VAB is a nightmare on the large station for that exact reason

The IVAs totally took me by surprise with their overwhelming awesomeness!

The giant landing gears are incredible! I used them wherever it made sense, mass well spent

Population growth was slowish, but that makes sense to me. The upcoming crew transporter is going to be appreciated

Awesome mod and a very positive experience!

Nice looking station! Awesomeness!

Regarding the USI-LS balance, will defintly have a balance pass coming with the next patch ( if you have any input on numbers feel free to drop em either here or as a github issue)

Quick preview of the transport module (ive reused some textures to save me time, its work in progress) specifically the cold transport parts from the tiny house IVA as they made total sense, Holds 160 civilians (in cold storage stacked high) Will use a large amount of ElectricCharge to keep em frozen. If you ship runs out of charge they will start dieing off. So bring alot of panels or a reactor. Part is pretty much done, just have coding a custom module for it to work properly. Once docked or connected to a station or base, the electric charge requirement will go away (so you can thaw em out and transfer them to their accommodations. )

Edited October 26, 2015 by rabidninjawombat

[hab136]

Quick preview of the transport module (ive reused some textures to save me time, its work in progress) specifically the cold transport parts from the tiny house IVA as they made total sense, Holds 160 civilians (in cold storage stacked high) Will use a large amount of ElectricCharge to keep em frozen. If you ship runs out of charge they will start dieing off. So bring alot of panels or a reactor. Part is pretty much done, just have coding a custom module for it to work properly. Once docked or connected to a station or base, the electric charge requirement will go away (so you can thaw em out and transfer them to their accommodations. )

Oooh, DeepFreeze for CivPop

[csmicfool]

Regarding the USI-LS balance, will defintly have a balance pass coming with the next patch ( if you have any input on numbers feel free to drop em either here or as a github issue)

Quick preview of the transport module (ive reused some textures to save me time, its work in progress) specifically the cold transport parts from the tiny house IVA as they made total sense, Holds 160 civilians (in cold storage stacked high) Will use a large amount of ElectricCharge to keep em frozen. If you ship runs out of charge they will start dieing off. So bring alot of panels or a reactor. Part is pretty much done, just have coding a custom module for it to work properly. Once docked or connected to a station or base, the electric charge requirement will go away (so you can thaw em out and transfer them to their accommodations. )

Hello and Thanks again for this mod!

First, I agree regarding balancing. I didn't quite expect there to be a full 100% perfect reuse of water from liquidwaste, but the amount you need to mine or resupply is quite cumbersome and doesn't improve much by adding more water recycling per civilian. Ideally, technology of this scale should be engineered for near-perfect sustainability from launch. Alternative - have civilians generate fuel (methane gas?) from the lost mass and make it a closed-cycle w/ additional benefits. Pie in the sky.

Transport module looks amazing. I hope there's also a smaller versions cause I'd rather not use tweakscale for a heatshield. If I have to keep this in orbit, maybe a non-cryogenic civilian passenger part (even if identical to existing passegner parts for mk2/mk3 fuselage - re-use the exteriors and IVA) to shuttle from orbit to surface while kolonizing. Would probably need some life support resource storage of it's own (3 days??) since there are no existing small tanks which would be aerodynamic.

[namAehT]

would it be possible to get a notification in KSP when you get paid rent? Just saying what vessel, how much, and when the next one is would be nice.

[rabidninjawombat]

would it be possible to get a notification in KSP when you get paid rent? Just saying what vessel, how much, and when the next one is would be nice.

namAehT, rent accumulates per day for each target, so I wouldn't want to have a popup or notifications daily for every ship, would get quite spammy specially if you timewarp.

What i can do though is add a notification to come up every time you visit a civilian colony, with total rent earned. (added it for you as an enhancement request to github so i don't forget) Remember, you only receive rent whenever you visit your vessels, So its good to visit them every so often, you will received the accumulated rent.

The right click menu of Civilian Apartments will display your daily rent amount.

Also to other folks, Apologies for the delay on getting out the part, and patch i linked early, Birthday was over the weekend, so i've been away from the workstation for most of the week!

[namAehT]

namAehT, rent accumulates per day for each target, so I wouldn't want to have a popup or notifications daily for every ship, would get quite spammy specially if you timewarp.

What i can do though is add a notification to come up every time you visit a civilian colony, with total rent earned. (added it for you as an enhancement request to github so i don't forget) Remember, you only receive rent whenever you visit your vessels, So its good to visit them every so often, you will received the accumulated rent.

The right click menu of Civilian Apartments will display your daily rent amount.

Also to other folks, Apologies for the delay on getting out the part, and patch i linked early, Birthday was over the weekend, so i've been away from the workstation for most of the week!

Ah, thanks. Didn't realize it was per day, or that I had to go to the vessel to get the payment. Off to make a space resort then.

[entropy--]

rabidninjawombat, I love your population mod, it's what I was looking forward to for a long time! I have a question on mixing resource / life support systems.

I am basically trying to build a "current tech" Duna colony, based around the Civilian Population domes and habitats, since it makes things look like a real colony, rather than just a landed spaceship. Due to roleplay reasons, I want to do things in the "current tech" mind set, so I am excluding a few tech types from the get go:

* No magical in-situ construction of very large things (e.g., fly out a small extra-planetary launchpad, then poof, you have 3 giant domes with population 200 next to it).

* No mining lasers and tiny part that magically takes care of all industrial needs (shoot lasers at ground, have tiny industrial nano-factory create 10000 rocket parts used to build an entire dome).

So I tried combining the parts from your mod (for domes and habitation) with MKS parts (for industry). But I could not find a way to convert the Civilian Population mod to use the supplies / water system used in MKS, as opposed to Oxygen / Water / Food used in Civilian Population. The other way around also seems tricky, namely making MKS industrial chains work with the Community Resources resources.

Any ideas on how to get a common resource / life support system for my base, or should I stick to all-out MKS or all-out Civilian Population, and not combine them?

[Admac]

There are 2 life support systems being used, and it sounds like you might have zero installed.

Option 1) Install USI LifeSupport

There are baked in configs for Civpop to switch over to USI LS and then all you MKS food production will tie in with your Civpop farms/condos. The big drawback is the current USILS config for Civpop needs a lot of water, but that's a non issue if you have a surface base on a patch of water.

Option 2) Install TAC Lifesupport

There are baked in Configs for MKS to switch over to TACLS, and then all the Civpop production will tie in. The drawback to this way is there are no Kontainers for TACLS stuff, so you'll have to use the ones bundled in TACLS, which look different.

Totally not an Option) Install both. This will cause a hilariously huge number of problems, and be brutally buggy. DO NOT DO.

Iv'e done it both ways, either work fine, and I preferred USI LS since it was a bit less to keep track of in the resource panel. TAC would really shine if there were a way to easily suck in the thin Duna atmosphere of C02, and make fuel and breathable air but I haven't seen any part packs with that yet, but I haven't really looked.

A super realistic IRSU pack would be pretty fun for people that like more constraints on colonies!

Edited November 4, 2015 by Admac

[entropy--]

I had USI LS before (no TAC LS), and was not seeing the tie in. But, trying it out in a clean KSP install that only USI stuff + Civpop made it work. I guess I'll go through addons and remove whatever is conflicting in my main install.

Thanks Admac!

Edited November 5, 2015 by entropy--

[entropy--]

Played around with it a little. Are the numbers for supplies / second correct when using USI LS? It looked like all sizes of houses / agriculture modules consumed / produced the same 3 / 3.55 supplies per second (including the really huge ones). Let me know if you want to see any screenshots.

Also, are the masses of the dome bases correct? The ones with grass seem to have lower mass than similarly sized empty ones.

Sorry for all the detailed questions, I just want to built a very big city on Duna, and whatever initial domed base I start with will serve as a template for all the rest, so making a mistake will mean I need to undo everything.

Edited November 5, 2015 by entropy--

[Nansuchao]

A little question. I would like to use this mod that I never used. Someone knows if this works in 1.0.5?

[RoverDude]

If you're having any issues with the mks bits let me know. RNW ping me if you need help with interop.

[entropy--]

A little question. I would like to use this mod that I never used. Someone knows if this works in 1.0.5?

Works fine for me.