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[1.11.x] Heat Control - More radiators! (Jan 19, 2020)


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Well hmm, I gotta think about all of this quite heavily. Luckily I've got no time to mod until Saturday at the earliest, so by all means, keep discussing and I'll keep thinking too. The way I see it there's about four options at the moment:

A) Move HC/NFE completely to the stock system

B) Hide stock radiators and have HC/NFE continue as is

B1) Instead of hiding, rework stock radiators to work with HC/NFE modules

C) Some kind of horrific frankenstein hybrid? :P

IMO B is best, if only to unify the look of all the radiators.

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Can't say i am fond of the "Surprise!" moment where they reveal stock radiators in the 1.0.3 release... After mod makers dumped dozens of hours into fixing something that should have been in 1.0. Without even mentioning the fact that it was going to be in 1.0.3, so mod makers didn't waste their own time. Which is made even more confusing with rover recommending yours all while building his own. :huh:

With that said however, it is stock now...

If you go with B or B1 how will that affect other mods that add radiators/reactors/whatever that use stock?

Which will cause less headaches down the road?

I was waiting for 1.0.3 before starting a new save, so i honestly don't know the pro's/cons of both systems. I am just afraid of conflicts down the road.

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I say go with B1.

Hiding parts usually ends up increasing the thread post count with people screaming bloody murder when they cant find some parts. Just ask Roverdude about hiding ELP and all the missing parts questions he got. Most people installing NFP parts want the extra complexity so reconfiguring stock parts should not kill them.

You could also leave the stock radiators as is, im sure we can find a use for them lol...

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Can't say i am fond of the "Surprise!" moment where they reveal stock radiators in the 1.0.3 release... After mod makers dumped dozens of hours into fixing something that should have been in 1.0. Without even mentioning the fact that it was going to be in 1.0.3, so mod makers didn't waste their own time. Which is made even more confusing with rover recommending yours all while building his own. :huh:

Par for the course, it seems. I guess the trick is to expect no better, and keep backup installs.

Well hmm, I gotta think about all of this quite heavily. Luckily I've got no time to mod until Saturday at the earliest, so by all means, keep discussing and I'll keep thinking too. The way I see it there's about four options at the moment:

A) Move HC/NFE completely to the stock system

B) Hide stock radiators and have HC/NFE continue as is

B1) Instead of hiding, rework stock radiators to work with HC/NFE modules

C) Some kind of horrific frankenstein hybrid? :P

Just ignore most of... whatever it is Squad thinks they're doing. (Today. Whoops, spoke too soon. There's 1.0.4.) Use the new mechanics, if they work, toss the huge, ugly, and imprecise stock parts, and balance your stuff yourself, Nertea. I trust you. I've given up trying to guess what the next official episode of what Streetwind (too politely) called "bonkers" will bring.

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I would say B1 as well. You never know, Squad may want to move the stock system in line with yours, kinda how they moved the other heating characteristics in line with how Deadly Reentry works. You put a lot of work into Heat Control, I wouldn't toss it out.

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Well now.

Surprised at some of the hostility, insults, and veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations in this thread. More than a bit disappointing.

Radiators were in the works for a very long time (longer than Heat Control existed), but I'm also not at liberty to discuss what I am/am not working on, or when it gets green lighted (at least not before it officially gets blessed).

And for clarity... I planned on taking HC/NFE dependencies since at the time I had no idea when/if these would make it into stock (and I kinda need reactors too). I was pleasantly surprised to have it approved for 1.0.3.

Lastly. Believe it or not, I actually made certain design considerations specifically to make life easier for Nertea to integrate stuff (tho I was under zero obligation to do so).

That is all.

(edit)

Well not quite all. I'll still take a dependency on NFE, since in my chats with Nertea on launch day, it looks like his reactor mechanics will work with the stock radiators, which covers that dependency issue for my mods.

Edited by RoverDude
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Well hmm, I gotta think about all of this quite heavily. Luckily I've got no time to mod until Saturday at the earliest, so by all means, keep discussing and I'll keep thinking too. The way I see it there's about four options at the moment:

A) Move HC/NFE completely to the stock system

B) Hide stock radiators and have HC/NFE continue as is

B1) Instead of hiding, rework stock radiators to work with HC/NFE modules

C) Some kind of horrific frankenstein hybrid? :P

I would vote strongly against C. Radiators should be consistent in their basic functionality.

I'm seeing a lot of votes for B/B1, and I'm tempted to do so as well (after all, I was personally involved in the testing/development of the NearFuture radiators, and I think we arrived at a good system), but I think we should not dismiss A.

Hypothetically, option A is almost certainly what we would have done if 1.03's radiators and heat mechanics had been included back in 1.0. Thus, I worry that our gravitation toward option B reflects a fallacy of sunk costs, or simple resistance to change. NearFuture has never overwritten stock behavior in the past except when absolutely necessary (or as an optional add-on with the RTGs), and I'm not sure the issues with the stock radiators qualify as necessity.

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I would vote strongly against C. Radiators should be consistent in their basic functionality.

I'm seeing a lot of votes for B/B1, and I'm tempted to do so as well (after all, I was personally involved in the testing/development of the NearFuture radiators, and I think we arrived at a good system), but I think we should not dismiss A.

Hypothetically, option A is almost certainly what we would have done if 1.03's radiators and heat mechanics had been included back in 1.0. Thus, I worry that our gravitation toward option B reflects a fallacy of sunk costs, or simple resistance to change. NearFuture has never overwritten stock behavior in the past except when absolutely necessary (or as an optional add-on with the RTGs), and I'm not sure the issues with the stock radiators qualify as necessity.

I think the stock radiators reflect a basic KSP issue. Squad is constantly trying to balance initial playability versus realism, and they have messed that a few times. They come up with gameplay mechanisms like thermal loading, then they tweak everything so the only thing it really does is blow up a few batteries and solar panels. They add a lot of heat to a nuclear engine that WORKS BECAUSE OF ITS HIGH HEAT and people complain so much that they cut the heat back and back and back until basically you can just use it as a regular engine. They add a whole system for distributing heat all through the ship, and then when people get confused they add magic radiators to just let you completely ignore the heat system by sticking them anywhere. They keep trying to make re-entry deadly without actually being deadly, so they give this skin heating mechanism but then they up the heat tolerance of the parts so much that you can still drop a capsule straight down onto Kerbin from Munar altitudes and it will survive with no heat shield.

I want some mods that are more than just extra parts. I want them to add some interest. I think the NF stuff does that. I like the heat control system and don't want it abandoned just because Squad got wishywashy on the gameplay like they usually do.

Edited by mikegarrison
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Well now.

Surprised at some of the hostility, insults, and veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations in this thread. More than a bit disappointing.

Radiators were in the works for a very long time (longer than Heat Control existed), but I'm also not at liberty to discuss what I am/am not working on, or when it gets green lighted (at least not before it officially gets blessed).

And for clarity... I planned on taking HC/NFE dependencies since at the time I had no idea when/if these would make it into stock (and I kinda need reactors too). I was pleasantly surprised to have it approved for 1.0.3.

Lastly. Believe it or not, I actually made certain design considerations specifically to make life easier for Nertea to integrate stuff (tho I was under zero obligation to do so).

That is all.

(edit)

Well not quite all. I'll still take a dependency on NFE, since in my chats with Nertea on launch day, it looks like his reactor mechanics will work with the stock radiators, which covers that dependency issue for my mods.

Sorry if I accidentally contributed to the hostility. I hope, I didn't. On contrary, I'm glad that stock heat mechanics is evolving.

I would gladly change my vote to A, but as it was said, global cooling simplifies gameplay compared to HC.

I wonder if radiators have any other cfg parameters except those that actually used in stock configs? And what does radiatorHeadroom do?

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Surprised at some of the hostility, insults, and veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations in this thread. More than a bit disappointing.

Just you wait until they find the torches and pitchforks. That's what happens when you're "official" ;)

Radiators were in the works for a very long time

Out of curiosity, were radiators planned before 1.0? (if you can talk about it now)

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Surprised at some of the hostility, insults, and veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations in this thread. More than a bit disappointing.

Really? Why? Maybe you're in so deep you can't see what it looks like to regular players. Here's what it looks like to me:

Squad introduces a problem (overheating) without the minimal foresight to give players a way to deal with it. Randazzo and Nertea work hard to solve the problem, and they both do so very well, in ways that complement each other. They both deliberately avoid stepping on each others' toes.

Then Squad tells us we should be super-excited about a "brilliant" new feature from you. That feature turns out to be worse in all aspects - aesthetics, gameplay, and balancing - than what Randazzo and Nertea gave us weeks ago, stomps all over their toes with blithe insouciance, and introduces more headaches for them.

Still surprised?

Now, maybe there are justifications for every step along the way and everything was done in good faith with no intention to undercut anyone. I'm perfectly willing to believe that, and I have no particular interest in insulting you (or further derailing the HC thread).

But the result, from my perspective, remains as you see above.

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*snip*

While I appreciate your support, I don't think Roverdude did anything untoward here. I can't claim to know Nertea personally, but I doubt he's taken it that way either.

I for one was glad to see I could just swap over to the Radiator panel deploy module instead of the solar panel module without having to re-do any animations. He may not have been specifically thinking of me while doing it, but it has made a certain aspect of my mod easier for me to manage.

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Of course, I didn't mean to imply that either you or Nertea shared my take on things to any extent, and I'm not accusing RoverDude of stealing anything. I apologize if that was unclear in my previous posts.

Glad to hear there's some part of this that will be useful. :)

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Really? Why? Maybe you're in so deep you can't see what it looks like to regular players. Here's what it looks like to me:

Squad introduces a problem (overheating) without the minimal foresight to give players a way to deal with it. Randazzo and Nertea work hard to solve the problem, and they both do so very well, in ways that complement each other. They both deliberately avoid stepping on each others' toes.

Then Squad tells us we should be super-excited about a "brilliant" new feature from you. That feature turns out to be worse in all aspects - aesthetics, gameplay, and balancing - than what Randazzo and Nertea gave us weeks ago, stomps all over their toes with blithe insouciance, and introduces more headaches for them.

Still surprised?

Now, maybe there are justifications for every step along the way and everything was done in good faith with no intention to undercut anyone. I'm perfectly willing to believe that, and I have no particular interest in insulting you (or further derailing the HC thread).

But the result, from my perspective, remains as you see above.

Please remain civil in this thread. You claim that what you're posting is from your perspective but the rest of the post is written as though you're stating fact. Please be aware that your perspective is rather limited, since I assume you haven't discussed this with Nertea and Randazzo, and Roverdude is not at liberty to discuss all aspects of the process. I'm sure you mean no harm but it's often very important to take a look at how we phrase things.

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Ah hell no guys. Don't be hostile towards RoverDude or Squad or anything. This is not an argument thread, this is not a complaint thread, this is a supposed to be a nice, civil discussion about how best to handle a change that is a step forward in the base game.

Me and RoverDude had been chatting about this during experimentals too. I was well aware that this was coming, and I was resultingly aware that there were going to be some conflicts to resolve, particularly with the changes from a localized heat system to a global heat system.

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Argument:

Civil me:

I appreciate the stock game trying to deal with the problems it creates. That's progress after all. I just think the implementation the stock game lacks too many things that are integral to this mod's functionality and converting to the stock system would feel like a step backwards to those of us already acquainted with it. I am, and will continue to be, preferential to HC's methods because I got to work with experimentals and have become adept with it. I prefer that extra precision with my heat management.

Not so civil me:

I originally said this:

Nertea just finished the update on NF Electrical, also splittng off the universal radiators into a new mod, Heat Control, which literally does everything your talking about.

Following that release, Roverdude actually said in the NF thread he planned to take that as a dependency (no point reinventing the wheel). For the above reason I highly doubt that he's pushing it into stock (more importantly, that'd be highly unethical between modders; I dare to assume Roverdude is not the kind of person to do that).

Then 1.0.3 came out and made a liar out of me.

...

Lastly. Believe it or not, I actually made certain design considerations specifically to make life easier for Nertea to integrate stuff (tho I was under zero obligation to do so).

Ignoring the overall modestly hostile tone, that parentheses comment was wholly unnecessary and is salt to the wounds for us defending Nertea. And I was trying to defend you both.

Please remain civil in this thread. You claim that what you're posting is from your perspective but the rest of the post is written as though you're stating fact.

Lots of the people in this thread, myself included, have already put the stock radiators through rigorous testing (Streetwind definitely being the most thorough). Most of the same people also experimental'd HC and have extensive experience there. THe assertions we are making about stock radiator system vs this are not based on opinion. They are very much rooted in empirical evidence.

Kasper, you come down here and your statement sounds as though you expect we know the truth, but are ignoring it. This is not true. We're working with the best picture we can develop, but when you, Squad, and everyone involved with 1.0+ is being unnecessarily cryptic.

and Roverdude is not at liberty to discuss all aspects of the process. I'm sure you mean no harm but it's often very important to take a look at how we phrase things.

THe information denial has to stop. Here's what I see:

1.0.3 comes out with radiators to fix the problem of NTR heating, patch solution to a poorly planned problem, while also stepping on the functionality of this mod.Then, after the angry mob forms, are we told these have been in the works since pre-1.0.

Its crap like this which has to stop. There needs to be some transparency in the development process, that is assume you want people to not react adversely when the empirical evidence available to us does not line up with whatever the truth may be. We shouldn't have to be analyzing the linguistic details of your phrasing. If you want us to know or assume something, you need to come out and say it. I imagine yall get tired of putting out the fires created by the lack of info. Why it continues boggles my mind.

Nertea, I apologize for being this scathing, but I'm really starting to get tired of Squad and associates fighting fires like we're the only ones in the wrong when the whole thing could be eased by sharing some insight into some of the development process.

Progress:

If you had been aware of this, what would be your plan for moving to a global heat system? If there's a shell of a plan here, knowing it might make some of us consider option A acceptable.

it looks like his reactor mechanics will work with the stock radiators, which covers that dependency issue for my mods.

While it covers your needs, stock radiators definitely will not work well with the Near Future package as a whole and that that will inherently take priority. Radiators have to keep the reactors below nominal temp (which we expect stock radiators to struggle with due to lack of refrigeration). THey also have to cool the engine(s) too. Since the engine can be allowed to run hotter than the reactor, and the stock radiators don't multi-task fantastically well (they cope with NTRs but when ur running 3 reactors and 3 MPDTs . . .) I expect there to be problems. Obviously I cant confirm any of this until there's a working build of NFE for 1.0.3.

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Well now.

Surprised at some of the hostility, insults, and veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations in this thread. More than a bit disappointing.

Radiators were in the works for a very long time (longer than Heat Control existed), but I'm also not at liberty to discuss what I am/am not working on, or when it gets green lighted (at least not before it officially gets blessed).

And for clarity... I planned on taking HC/NFE dependencies since at the time I had no idea when/if these would make it into stock (and I kinda need reactors too). I was pleasantly surprised to have it approved for 1.0.3.

Lastly. Believe it or not, I actually made certain design considerations specifically to make life easier for Nertea to integrate stuff (tho I was under zero obligation to do so).

That is all.

(edit)

Well not quite all. I'll still take a dependency on NFE, since in my chats with Nertea on launch day, it looks like his reactor mechanics will work with the stock radiators, which covers that dependency issue for my mods.

I hope me expressing my disappointment didn't come across as insulting... It's an unfortunate truth that you just can't please everyone. At some point you have to make the call and decide how you want to do stuff. You made your call, and I just happen to be in the not-pleased camp this time (I'll deal). Besides, I'm putting this ball as much (if not more) in Squad's court. You work on the game, but ultimately the decision of what mechanics to implement and what to do with them lies with a higher power. It's Harvester and Maxmaps and co. who need to decide what they want - an abstract representation of thermodynamics, in which case the current stock heat system is (in my opinion) vastly overcomplicated, or a detailed representation, in which case they need to actually start giving the player details and let them do something with the heat system. Doing this whole skin heat thing that ratchets the complexity up another two notches while simultaneously saying it's okay to greenlight a set of radiators intentionally built to be abstract, all in the same patch... I'm sorry, but as much as I try to put myself into their shoes, I just don't understand the intent from my vantage point as a player-slash-amateur-mod-dabbler. Maybe there's "future plans", who knows, but I have to base my opinion on what I can see.

I appreciate that you went the extra mile to set things up for Nertea to come and take advantage of, I really do (though I won't pretend I understand how, I'm not as good with the under-the-hood stuff as the two of you), but please note that it's not the technical side that has us worried or disappointed. It's the conceptual side, because these radiators have invalidated the reason for this mod's existence from a conceptual standpoint. Heat Control is all about routing heat around the vessel, but the new radiators don't care where the heat is. So for those of us who like the idea of purposefully routing heat around the vessel, having these parts in stock is akin to a death sentence to any sort of depth in this regard. If Heat Control wants to continue existing and offer this kind of gameplay and have it make sense ingame, it needs to nerf or remove your radiators. Either that, or Heat Control completely changes what it is and does. That's just the consequence of things.

Near Future Electrical may work well with the stock radiators. I say "may", because as mentioned, NFE's balancing is really quite sensitive to radiator mass, and without a test build of the mod, there's no telling of how many stock radiators you actually need to mount to achieve 12 MW of radiation flux without exceeding 900K reactor temperature (the high watermark test for NFE). But this is the Heat Control thread, and we're largely disappointed about losing Heat Control.

EDIT: woops, a lot of people have posted since I started typing this. Sorry, Nertea, I'll let this be the last thing I say on this topic in this thread. I just wanted my thought processes to be clear.

Edited by Streetwind
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Some questions regarding Stock radiators versus Heat Control radiators, which one is...

  1. More or less difficult to manage? Or does it vary by situation?
  2. More or less realistic? Would real radiators only have access to the heat they immediately attach to, or is it also realistic to assume you could have a network of cooling pipes that can bring heat from any part of the ship to the radiator? Are both realistic, but just different?
  3. Which is more powerful in terms of raw heat-removal? Is there even a significant difference? Or do they both prevent explosions equally well in practice?

I ask all this because I think it provides some much needed perspective on the whole A,B,B1,C question. Also if both are merely different, yet equally realistic and powerful, then I think it might slap some perspective into people who are getting too invested in the stock-vs-HC debate. It might not be as big a deal as some are making it out to be. How significant are the in-practice consequences of one system versus the other?

Also, I think answering these questions would help some players figure out if they even need/want to use HC given the stock options now. A lot of us were brought to HC by sheer necessity to avoid engines exploding. And some people try to balance their functional needs with RAM consumption. Nertea's models are great, and I love the insulator parts and heat pipes, but if stock radiators prevent explosions just as effectively, it would be nice to know.

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Entropius,

1) Stock radiators are generally easier to manage.

2) Realism is highly dependent on how accepting you are of abstractions.

3) Nertea's radiators are currently better in terms of heat rejection/area, while stock radiators are better in terms of heat rejection/mass.

Ultimately, conclusive tests cannot be run until we can work with Near Future Electrical, which means we're waiting until Sat/Sun for Nertea to get a hotfix out.

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I can answer for what stock does.

Regarding management - passive panels conduct heat and radiate it - no code, just static parts.

The active panels will look for parts across the entire ship and identify those past their individual heat threshold (which can be configured at the part level). They then attempt to distribute this energy across all active, deployed radiators (similar to RCS, heat transfer is all-vessel). The amount of transfer is configurable, and the saturation point of the radiators are configurable.

In both cases, heat is dissipated through stock radiative mechanics.

So to answer specific questions (regarding stock):

1. For active radiators, attach and go. Location does not matter. Also the deployable active radiators are assumed to have insluated bases so as to not heat up what they are directly attached to.

2. Passive panels are direct attach, active panels work with the assumption/abstraction that there is a network of heat pipes throughout the vessel for heat transfer. There are no separate heat pipe parts.

3. Stock just moves it around from part to part and depends on stock mechanics for dissipation, so nothing like dumping coolant, etc. (not sure what all mechanics HC uses).

With sufficient panels you can run clusters of Nerv engines indefinitely. Well, pretty much any heat problem is solvable with enough of the stock radiators - if you're willing to pay the cost in terms of added mass.

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-snip-

What I want to test is how it interacts with a reactor, which needs to be kept below a certain nominal temperature, and an engine which can run way hotter and be safe. Is the heat threshold defined as relative to the overheating state or is it defined as a discrete value within the config? In the case of the latter, the potential for problematic interaction for reactor-powered NF craft is mitigated with proper config setup.

What HC does differently in terms of radiators is a) different balancing for mass/area/heat rejection, B) radiators can be hotter than the parent part (necessary for proper reactor cooling), and c) no global heat pull, allowing for heat-generating components to have their heat piped to a dedicated ship section used as a radiator bank.

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The temperature at which a radiator begins pulling from a part is configurable at the part level. It's a property of the part itself (the Nerv being the only stock part with this property right now).

Does that mean only Nervs are cooled by active radiators? Or is there a default property that all the other stock parts use?

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