[1.12.x] Heat Control - More radiators! (August 22, 2021)

[Nertea]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:53 PM, SciMan said:

So, I've been frustrated at just how many radiators I need to put on my craft when using multiple of the high-tech "torch" type engines in FFT, so I've been trying to make a double (or even 4x) scale static rectangular microchannel radiator so that I can reduce the part count of my craft (I'm holding the physical stats of the things in-line with the scaling, so mass, power consumption, and heat rejection are all being increased proportionally, no free lunches here).

However, I seem to be unable to do so using just a ModuleManager patch. Looking into it, it appears that I'd have to have my patch run AFTER the SystemHeat patch that makes all these nice radiators play nice with the FFT engines, and I'm aware of how to do that.

However, what I'm not aware of how to do is how to edit the values of the fixed microchannel radiator variants that are available thru B9 part switching. It seems to me that I'd have to delete and re-write the entire B9 part switch section of the config file, which seems like a chore when I'm only interested in changing the numbers on maybe 5 lines of the patch.

I thought I had a good handle on how to make MM patches, but apparently my knowledge (or the features of MM itself) fall short on this kind of thing where the value you actually want to edit is deeply buried inside a sub-node of an actual PartModule.

Any thoughts? I want to basically be able to say "Okay, in the B9PartSwitch part module, for all these "subtype" nodes, I want to take the temperatureCurve inside that subtype and edit the 2nd value of the 2nd key to be 4x as much as it is right now" but I don't want to have to re-write the whole dang thing to do that, if that's possible.

I'm going off of the ModuleManager guidelines and nothing in them says anything about editing things that are several sub-nodes deep inside the part module itself.

This is generally correct below - if you need more go to the MM thread. There is technically syntax to edit FloatCurves but I find it more trouble than it's worth.

@PART[name]:AFTER[YourDirectives]
{

  @MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch]
  {
  	@SUBTYPE[theSubtypeName]
	{
	  @MODULE
      {
		@DATA
		{ your stuff}
	  }
	}
  }
}

 

18 hours ago, Mossconfig said:

No, I'm not blaming you, I'm just complaining generally. Nertea likes to do their own thing, write a new mod that does exactly what is needed, which is probably great for that specific use case but compatibility with others isn't really a priority.

It's more accurate to say I specifically exclude tweakscale from compatibility work.

 

 

[SciMan]

Thanks for that, but I ended up going at it via a different approach (I made the bigger radiators the regular way with MM, then I used the SystemHeat patches for HeatControl as a basis for my own similar patches that only change the parts I made).

I guess what I'm saying is that I got tired of waiting and did it the way I didn't want to have to do it, but it works now so I'm happy!

One small problem I noticed (and fixed) is that the low value for breakingForce and breakingTorque in the rescaled parts' configs made for some radiators that were very wobbly on their mounts, and no amount of struts (auto strut or manually placed) could make them stop wobbling. I fixed this by scaling the values for those two lines in the config by the same factor I scaled everything else.

Now i have a 2x and a 4x scale version of the fixed square micro-channel heat radiator, which helps massively with reducing the part count of my drive sections for my motherships.
For the 2x size radiator, since it's scaled up by 2x in only 2 dimensions (not thickness) I scaled the heat rejection capacity and mass by a factor of 4x (so one 2x size radiator replaces the 4 of the same configuration of normal size radiators, but doesn't save any mass).
For the 4x size radiator, size went up by a factor of 2x over the 2x size version (total of 4x bigger) and heat rejection capacity and mass were scaled up by a factor of 4x over the double-size version, for a total of 16x over the normal sized version.

That's how these things should scale, right?

[flart]

On 11/21/2021 at 12:01 AM, SciMan said:

That's how these things should scale, right?

That depends...
Probably there is not enough strength to to have 16x area radiator without scaling thickness,
so instead of 4x4x1 size, x16 heat xfer, x16 mass, you need to have
4x4x2 size, x16 heat xfer, x32 mass.

Also not all cost of the radiator is just raw materials, the initial R&D aren't needed for the scaled part, so cost will not be scaled the same as the mass. 
We need to ask someone from Post Kerbin Mining Corporation about the ratio of the R&D cost and raw material cost.
 

[coredumpster]

Is it possible to manipulate any of these radiators in 'Engineer Mode'?

Are there limits on Engineer level ( like Level 5 needed to repair reactors with Repair Kits )?

I have some radiators that I'm trying to move / add to a craft and can't seem to get the Radiators to be moveable.

Have tried the XR-175, XR-500, Beta Fin, Alpha Fin.  Added extra Kerbals nearby, and still no go.  Can move around ISRUs, drills, engines, and other really heavy things, so shouldn't be a weight limit afaict.

[coredumpster]

Following-up myself.

Discovered that this hasn't been setup yet in the mod, so I have tested what's needed to enable this, and I have submitted a pull request to @Nertea's Dev branch.

Fairly straightforward, just needs a block added to the .cfg file for each part.  Here's the values I used for the volume ( taken from the Pull Req description ):

Adding Cargo capabilities to Heat Control radiator parts.

Modeled the volume values to align close to the Stock Radiator parts from a balance standpoint.

As Heat Control parts are slightly smaller than the similar Stock sized parts, I took the 'packedVolume' from the closest sized Stock parts and reduced slightly for the HC parts. The larger parts I set the volume to -1, which enables manipulation by an Engineer in the field, but does not allow it to be stored in a Cargo Container ( IE, too big ).

I left the micro-channel and surface mount-curved radiators alone for now, as my thoughts are those require specialized skills to install and should likely be limited to VAB.

Fixed-1 Beta = 200L
Fixed-2 Alpha = 75L
Fixed-3 Gamma = -1
Fixed-4 Delta = -1

Conformal-1 = 100L
Conformal-2 = 200L
Conformal-3 = -1

Universal-1 = 75L ( I think this is a bit low, but is balanced with the Stock Small Radiator )
Universal-2 = 600L
Universal-3 = -1

[Nertea]

I could have sworn I did that... thanks.

[Sennalen]

Is there something that can generate electricity off of the gradient between heat loops?

[SpudNutimus]

Sorry to bother you, but is this mod compatible with Kerbalism's heating system?

[mikegarrison]

4 hours ago, SpudNutimus said:

Sorry to bother you, but is this mod compatible with Kerbalism's heating system?

Doubt it. Nertea's mods tend to all work as a system, and Kerbalism is mostly incompatible with that system.

[Rakete]

--- post obsolete ---

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Rakete

[t968rs]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:01 PM, SciMan said:

Thanks for that, but I ended up going at it via a different approach (I made the bigger radiators the regular way with MM, then I used the SystemHeat patches for HeatControl as a basis for my own similar patches that only change the parts I made).

I guess what I'm saying is that I got tired of waiting and did it the way I didn't want to have to do it, but it works now so I'm happy!

One small problem I noticed (and fixed) is that the low value for breakingForce and breakingTorque in the rescaled parts' configs made for some radiators that were very wobbly on their mounts, and no amount of struts (auto strut or manually placed) could make them stop wobbling. I fixed this by scaling the values for those two lines in the config by the same factor I scaled everything else.

Now i have a 2x and a 4x scale version of the fixed square micro-channel heat radiator, which helps massively with reducing the part count of my drive sections for my motherships.
For the 2x size radiator, since it's scaled up by 2x in only 2 dimensions (not thickness) I scaled the heat rejection capacity and mass by a factor of 4x (so one 2x size radiator replaces the 4 of the same configuration of normal size radiators, but doesn't save any mass).
For the 4x size radiator, size went up by a factor of 2x over the 2x size version (total of 4x bigger) and heat rejection capacity and mass were scaled up by a factor of 4x over the double-size version, for a total of 16x over the normal sized version.

That's how these things should scale, right?

@SciMan Would you be able to share the "CFG suite" for your engorged fixed radiators? I would also love to create large radiators based on the HeatControl parts, but it's definitely a bit more complex than tweaking tanks. My current understanding is that we edit:

1. SystemHeat patch for HeatControl parts
2. Add B9 MOdule Manager section with subtypes for desired part sub-types.

 

I thought I did this well enough, but it seems actually that I cannot just *edit* the patch, but need to create a new one...? I am not sure.