[1.12.x] Heat Control - More radiators! (August 22, 2021)

[Nertea]

Heat Control 0.4.0

• KSP 1.3
•  Converted to KSP 1.3 localization
•  Updated included MM to 2.8.0
•  Updated MiniAVC to 1.0.3.3
•  Normalized radiator naming - retractable radiators are xxR and fixed are xxF
•  Added EBR-1000 and EBR-250 Heat Exchangers: pseudo-radiators that pull (non-core) heat to themselves for low electricity costs. High thermal masses.
•  Added DR-8K Microchannel Graphene Heat Radiator: advanced heat radiator with great power to mass ratios. Does not rotate, not retractable
•  Added DR-4K Microchannel Graphene Heat Radiator: half-sized DR-8K
•  Added DF-2K Microchannel Graphene Heat Radiator Panel: Static heat radiator panel, surface attachable
• Added DF-1K Microchannel Graphene Heat Radiator Panel: similar to DF-2K but cut at a 45 degree angle
•  Normalized High Temperature radiator surface area ratios: dissipated heat now more accurately conforms to surface area ratio
•  Rebalanced mass and cost of all radiators to be consistent with new balance numbers from NFE
•  Renamed all radiators to reflect their new heat transfer numbers

[Spaceception]

Sweetness, I can't wait to play around with the new parts! Thanks

[HoveringKiller]

I'm getting a crash when trying to load in the game. The game crashes when trying to load from heatcontrol/parts/support/heat-exchanger/heat-exchanger-25-1/heat-exchanger-25-1. What all do you need from the crash reports? I'm going to try removing this file and if that doesn't work then I'll try uninstalling the mod, which I don't want to do because I love it so much lol.

Error Log:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak8xxGyCFaNNyF4Da9O7xUkBJHMX

Output_log:

https://1drv.ms/t/s!Ak8xxGyCFaNNyF9Q1D6FxToMruBm

I'll hopefully have more information for you tomorrow Nertea, but keep up the great work!

 

Edit: Also if it helps, it happens after the module manager patches.

Edit 2: Going through and deleting the individuals files, I've noticed that each time I delete one, the next file causes a crash as well. I've uninstalled the mod, as well as some others I had that weren't update for 1.3 yet, and will check back in.

Edit 3: I'm just going to start with a fresh install, adding mods on starting with Nertea's mods.

Edited June 17, 2017 by HoveringKiller

[Spaceception]

@Nertea Small error with the EF-1k graphene radiator panel, it has the same description as the VF-25 Alpha radiator fin, that's all I noticed

[Nertea]

On 6/17/2017 at 8:56 AM, HoveringKiller said:

I'm getting a crash when trying to load in the game. The game crashes when trying to load from heatcontrol/parts/support/heat-exchanger/heat-exchanger-25-1/heat-exchanger-25-1. What all do you need from the crash reports? I'm going to try removing this file and if that doesn't work then I'll try uninstalling the mod, which I don't want to do because I love it so much lol.

Error Log:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak8xxGyCFaNNyF4Da9O7xUkBJHMX

Output_log:

https://1drv.ms/t/s!Ak8xxGyCFaNNyF9Q1D6FxToMruBm

I'll hopefully have more information for you tomorrow Nertea, but keep up the great work!

 

Edit: Also if it helps, it happens after the module manager patches.

Edit 2: Going through and deleting the individuals files, I've noticed that each time I delete one, the next file causes a crash as well. I've uninstalled the mod, as well as some others I had that weren't update for 1.3 yet, and will check back in.

Edit 3: I'm just going to start with a fresh install, adding mods on starting with Nertea's mods.

Your install appears to die on the part after that, which is 

PartLoader: Compiling Part 'JSI/RasterPropMonitor/Library/Parts/ExternalCameraPart/external-camera/JSIPrimitiveExternalCamera'

I'd look into removing RPM first...

2 hours ago, Spaceception said:

@Nertea Small error with the EF-1k graphene radiator panel, it has the same description as the VF-25 Alpha radiator fin, that's all I noticed

Noted.

[HoveringKiller]

4 hours ago, Nertea said:

Your install appears to die on the part after that, which is 

PartLoader: Compiling Part 'JSI/RasterPropMonitor/Library/Parts/ExternalCameraPart/external-camera/JSIPrimitiveExternalCamera'

I'd look into removing RPM first...

That has fixed it! Thank you haha. Just out of curiosity, what do you look at when looking at those reports to see what is causing the issue?

[Nertea]

Well, I go up the file from the crash report and see what's there. In this case the last thing before the report stops is that line.

[Nertea]

A minor update with only one fix.

Heat Control 0.4.1

•  Fix description of EF-1K Microchannel Graphene Heat Radiator Panel
   

[KSPrynk]

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I love the realism that Heat Control and the rest of the NFT parts bring to KSP.

With the new heat exchanger parts out, I’d like to propose a variation to achieve what I consider to be the Holy Grail of KSP thermal management – a “thermostat” for hab parts.  It’s always bugged me that Kerbals don’t boil or freeze to death when cabin temps are wildly all over the map.  I recognize that the thermal transfer code and time warping make for an almost impossible situation, but Heat Control and NFE seem to have the bits and pieces (and knowledge base) to make for a crude approximation.

I propose a part (or family), tiny enough for Mk1 pods up through 3.75 Station parts and command modules, that utilizes EC to transfer heat between the part(s) they’re attached to, such as a habitable module, and either the existing or alternate heat exchanger parts to maintain an internal temp of 293K on that attached-to part (note: may warrant a tinier heat exchanger and radiator part set for small craft).  Transferred internal part heat and waste heat from the process could be built up as exchanger core heat and removed from the heat exchanger utilizing the existing heat management parts that reach out to the whole vessel.

For shadowed or outer solar system use, the “thermostat” would expend EC to heat the hab part.  This may be necessary for solar powered craft only as anything with a reactor should have waste heat to spare, or perhaps not at all in the inner system if there’s plenty of stored core heat from cooling solar loaded hab parts.

Ideally, this “thermostat” part would also regulate one level of adjacently attached parts, as the stock conformal radiators do, but that might make for too hard a balancing act/feedback loop, which would suggest an unobtrusive tiny part to radially attach to each hab part.  Rather than put the author on the hook for balancing the tech parameters (aside from maybe efficiency), I’d recommend an inflight and VAB GUI similar to the NFE engines, where max EC usage can be adjusted by the user, as well as acceptable variation in cabin temp (say up to +/- 10K) to buffer any unforeseen feedback loops.  Without knowing the trade space on solar loading rates and conduction from the rest of the vessel vs overall cooled part size, it may be best to have a logarithmic type EC slider, allowing anything from say 0.01 to 1000 EC/sec to be expended in cooling and heating.

Lastly, the heat exchangers may need a core heat temp limiting “circuit breaker” that keeps the exchanger from “popping” with excessive heating under crazy warp physics and temporarily turns off the “thermostat’s” heat transfer functions, at least until the radiators get things back under control.  Based on previous experience playing with the DeepFreeze cryosleep mod, ambient parts in the sun at Kerbin can exceed 460K when warp effects and/or reactor heat conduction gets wonky.  I currently set my cryopods to still operate at 500K, then baste the crew while they have a good crust going….

In summary, this may still fail when going into or coming out of non-physics warp, but at least the habs would eventually get comfy again, faster than they would with just passive conduction and radiation.  I’ll log this as a GitHub part request and probably link to the post rather than paste it all in.

[Wyzard]

1 hour ago, KSPrynk said:

It’s always bugged me that Kerbals don’t boil or freeze to death when cabin temps are wildly all over the map.  I recognize that the thermal transfer code and time warping make for an almost impossible situation, but Heat Control and NFE seem to have the bits and pieces (and knowledge base) to make for a crude approximation.

This makes sense, but it seems like more of a life-support function, so it might be better to propose it in a life-support mod.  I'm not familiar with TAC-LS, but USI-LS does add EC usage to crewed parts, presumably for implied environmental control (among other things).  It just doesn't actually do any heat transfer AFAIK, probably because of the implementation challenges you described.

[KSPrynk]

51 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

This makes sense, but it seems like more of a life-support function, so it might be better to propose it in a life-support mod.  I'm not familiar with TAC-LS, but USI-LS does add EC usage to crewed parts, presumably for implied environmental control (among other things).  It just doesn't actually do any heat transfer AFAIK, probably because of the implementation challenges you described.

True enough, but what I'm proposing actually affects the vessel physically, beyond consuming EC.  And as previously noted, I think some of the necessary parts (like the heat exchanger, not found in Stock or USI-LS; don't know about TAC-LS) and required level of expertise in their interaction is resident here.  Not to say RD couldn't crack it, what with his reactors and resource harvesting parts.

Where I think it would really start crossing into being a true life support mod would be throwing in an option to have Kerbals go dormant (easy mode) or even die (hardcore mode) if their hab exceeds a certain temp range for a specified period (can't stay zipped in a suit the whole trip).  This would be more analogous to USI hab or supply timers running out.  Such functionality probably would be a good RD task as he's beaten timers to death....

PS: Best reason to do it here - it truly is Heat Control that I'm looking for.

Edited July 4, 2017 by KSPrynk
Added PS

[KSPrynk]

12 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

Where I think it would really start crossing into being a true life support mod would be throwing in an option to have Kerbals go dormant (easy mode) or even die (hardcore mode) if their hab exceeds a certain temp range for a specified period (can't stay zipped in a suit the whole trip).

On further reflection, adding life support functionality to the thermostat capability may be better handled as a separate mod.  Mods life USI-LS just track whether the crew is on a vessel, or in the vicinity of one, that has things like supplies.  DeepFreeze is the only temperature dependent life support mod that I'm aware of (but I haven't tried out TAC-LS yet).

A "Kerbal Komfort Zone" mod would need to track individual Kerbals and how long they've been out of bounds (i.e., helmet closed).  Making "KKZ" stand-alone would also make it agnostic to the the thermal management system, so if someone comes up with a better mousetrap to keep habs at room temp (e.g., Squad or USI adds built-in thermal control to hab parts), there wouldn't have to be fights between competing thermal management components.

[Nertea]

22 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I love the realism that Heat Control and the rest of the NFT parts bring to KSP.

*snip*

So one thing you must understand is that the thermal system in KSP is very unstable and basically unfit to be used in the way you describe. There's a fairly simple killer thing - at 1000x+ timewarp, all heat in the vessel is redistributed and recomputed to ease calculations. This means that a crew pod with a temperature of 330K will be merged with an engine which has completed a burn at a temperature of 2000K. This fairly unpredictable merging essentially kills most complex uses of the thermal system, particularly in applications that require more than physics timewarp.

Such a system would have to be implemented completely within the Core heat paradigm, which has it's own problems.

However, throwing aside implementation details, I can't really fit this into the mandate of HC, which is to provide tools to manage heat in the useable context of KSP... which is more or less limited to cooling devices that produce heat. Limiting and adjusting the temperatures of crewed spaces isn't something that either KSP or the rest of my mods deal with so it's pretty strongly out of scope. Really, what I think you want is a whole new mod (It is very cold in space?) to manage the temperature of crewed spaces as a life support consideration. This could be quite a complex challenge if you are up to it, I don't think it has ever been really handled by any mod. I mean, you'd ideally create some kind of separation between the stock heat system (let's call it high flux heat) and the LS heat system (low flux heat), which is important for not dumping reactor heat into crew quarters. I can see how this would be architected, I just don't have time :P.

 

[Chimichanga]

On 7/4/2017 at 4:33 PM, Nertea said:

at 1000x+ timewarp, all heat in the vessel is redistributed and recomputed to ease calculations

Wow, I had no idea why my near-solar vessels would overheat randomly after warping - thanks for this tidbit (and everything else you've done for my KSP experiences over the years!)

[KSPNoob]

Love the mod but it seems in 1.3 (atleast for me) that the radiators status is always aligned to the sun. Does this matter for the cooling or is it a bug?

[Nertea]

On 7/13/2017 at 9:13 PM, KSPNoob said:

Love the mod but it seems in 1.3 (atleast for me) that the radiators status is always aligned to the sun. Does this matter for the cooling or is it a bug?

This means nothing, I'm not sure why stock has a field for this.

[trias702]

Quick question about how it is that HC allows vessel-wide core xfer cooling: is it because all entries for ModuleActiveRadiator do NOT specify an entry for maxLinksAway?

Put it another way, if a part specifies a ModuleActiveRadiator, but does not specify an entry for maxLinksAway, does that mean that that part will perform core cooling vessel-wide?

[Nertea]

4 hours ago, trias702 said:

Put it another way, if a part specifies a ModuleActiveRadiator, but does not specify an entry for maxLinksAway, does that mean that that part will perform core cooling vessel-wide?

Yes.

[Ruedii]

Could we get some pics in the OP?

I know they won't cover functionality, but it would be nice to know what the parts look like.

 

[nickicool]

Is this compatible with Interstellar Extended mod? Can I use this radiators with Interstellar reactors?

[LatiMacciato]

Question: Does the "VF-150 'Beta' High Temperature Heat Radiator" (aka radiator-fixed-1) have

TechRequired = highPowerElectrics

on purpose?

I assume highPowerElectrics is only available through CTT or depreciated or else and really should have

TechRequired = largeElectrics

or to ease up make it

TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion

.. reason why I ask is I found the part in my sandbox game but not in my career save

Regards

[Nertea]

14 hours ago, LatiMacciato said:

Question: Does the "VF-150 'Beta' High Temperature Heat Radiator" (aka radiator-fixed-1) have

TechRequired = highPowerElectrics

on purpose?

I assume highPowerElectrics is only available through CTT or depreciated or else and really should have

TechRequired = largeElectrics

or to ease up make it

TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion

.. reason why I ask is I found the part in my sandbox game but not in my career save

Regards

mm I think that dates from a few KSP versions ago when they rearranged the tree. I'll make sure it's addressed.

[LatiMacciato]

1 minute ago, Nertea said:

mm I think that dates from a few KSP versions ago when they rearranged the tree. I'll make sure it's addressed.

very cool! I have this set to largeElectrics and it works flawless (I woul also not mind having it at nuclearPropulsion too)

ty for your work!

[Nertea]

Heat Control 0.4.4

• Fixed TechRequired of small fixed radiator
• KSP 1.3.1
• Dependency updates

[Saltshaker]

Is 0.4.4 backwards compatible with 1.3 or only 1.3.1? Same question for the NF Tech mods