[1.12.x] Heat Control - More radiators! (August 22, 2021)

[Streetwind]

I like the "arbitrary rating unit for relative comparison" that Fraz suggested. Sure, it's a unit that few will fully understand just from a glance (because it is arbitrary), but if you try to give their heat output capacity as "x kW per second at temperature y", then that is even less useful to players, because there's no way in the VAB to target a specific temperature. Even the launchpad isn't enough, due to convection getting in the way. You'd have to run trial and error by launching into space, and that isn't fun (nor really viable in career mode). So, better a relative performance rating.

Bonus points, perhabps, if you can actually call it "relative performance rating", so the player has a hint that this isn't actually a physics figure

As for the test release, I've only poked it very briefly yesterday night. It seems to work, with the disclaimer that I launched only one ship with one reactor (the MX-L) and timewarped around a bit. You can probably release something like that if you're happy with it.

[smjjames]

Should I be using the radiators from Heat Control or....?

Sometimes it seems like the stock ones aren't really working, or I'm not understanding them.

[SSMI]

Well, if it says 1.02 on the can and you're using 1.04, I'd wager that it has something to do with things.

Oops. Sorry I didn't even notice that. I thought I must have been doing something wrong.

I guess I'll use the stock radiators until this gets updated. Thank you.

[Fraz86]

Should I be using the radiators from Heat Control or....?

Sometimes it seems like the stock ones aren't really working, or I'm not understanding them.

No, there is no 1.04 release for Heat Control. You should be using stock radiators in the manner stated by the reactor part descriptions. If you have encountered situations where the recommended radiators aren't working, please provide more detailed information (screenshots might be helpful too).

[Starbuckminsterfullerton]

Porkjet just added some radiators of his own to Atomic Age, seems like you already have a plan here but if you want another example of stock integration might be worth a look. He doesn't have reactors to handle though.

Removes conformal radiators, tweaks reactor temperatures and masses a bit. Also stops reactor heat production at > 100X time warp. See if that helps (I have a worry here).

Is there some effective way to quantify radiation capacity of stock radiators at optimal temperatures? It would be good to place a descriptive field on them (for HC) for better intercomparison between parts. I can add a part description field easily enough.

Will the conformals come back? Or are they just going to NFE?

Second bit sounds like a question for Rover.

[smjjames]

No, there is no 1.04 release for Heat Control. You should be using stock radiators in the manner stated by the reactor part descriptions. If you have encountered situations where the recommended radiators aren't working, please provide more detailed information (screenshots might be helpful too).

Shouldn't the large one work as well? Because the large ones seem nonfunctional to me. Besides the fact that they have a heck of a lot less surface area. Or maybe I'm not understanding how to use it.

I'm using 8 on this one.

[Fraz86]

Shouldn't the large one work as well? Because the large ones seem nonfunctional to me. Besides the fact that they have a heck of a lot less surface area. Or maybe I'm not understanding how to use it.

This doesn't work for two reasons:

1. The static radiators receive heat from other parts by conduction alone; they lack the active heat transfer ability of the folding panels. Reactors are very well insulated, and therefore conduct very little heat.
   
2. Even if static radiators were able to actively transfer heat, they also have much less surface area than the larger folding panels recommended for an MX-2, and it would require a huge number of them to radiate its heat.
   

EDIT:

Upon further inspection, the surface area : mass ratio is actually reasonably consistent between static and folding radiators, but still, there is very little reason to ever use static radiators.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Fraz86

[smjjames]

This doesn't work for two reasons:

1. The static radiators receive heat from other parts by conduction alone; they lack the active heat transfer ability of the folding panels. Reactors are very well insulated, and therefore conduct very little heat to static radiators.
   
2. Even if static radiators were able to actively transfer heat, they also have much higher mass per unit surface area than the folding panels, and it would require a lot of them to radiate the heat produced by a reactor.
   

Basically, for whatever reason, Squad made static radiators pretty much useless relative to folding radiators. I suggest using folding radiators. Perhaps I will write a patch that brings static radiators in-line with folding radiators, if there is interest.

Oh, so basically they're passive rather than active, I didn't realize that.

[Fraz86]

For anyone who would like to use static radiators with NFE reactors, I wrote a ModuleManager patch that changes static panels from passive to active. The new heat parameters are identical to folding radiators. I also decreased static radiators' cost so there is a reason to consider using them. Nertea, you're welcome to include this as an optional patch for NFE if you like.

@PART[radPanelSm]
{
	@cost = 50
	@heatConductivity = 0.001
	%skinInternalConductionMult = 2000
	@radiatorHeadroom = 0.75
	@thermalMassModifier = 2.5
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleActiveRadiator
		maxEnergyTransfer = 500
	}
}
@PART[radPanelLg]
{
	@cost = 250
	@heatConductivity = 0.001
	%skinInternalConductionMult = 2000
	@radiatorHeadroom = 0.75
	@thermalMassModifier = 2.5
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleActiveRadiator
		maxEnergyTransfer = 2500
	}
}

Edited July 5, 2015 by Fraz86

[Murdabenne]

For anyone who would like to use static radiators with NFE reactors, I wrote a ModuleManager patch that changes static panels from passive to active. The new heat parameters are identical to folding radiators. I also decreased static radiators' cost so there is a reason to consider using them. Nertea, you're welcome to include this as an optional patch for NFE if you like.

@PART[radPanelSm]
{
    @cost = 50
    @heatConductivity = 0.001
    skinInternalConductionMult = 2000
    @radiatorHeadroom = 0.75
    @thermalMassModifier = 2.5
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleActiveRadiator
        maxEnergyTransfer = 500
    }
}
@PART[radPanelLg]
{
    @cost = 250
    @heatConductivity = 0.001
    skinInternalConductionMult = 2000
    @radiatorHeadroom = 0.75
    @thermalMassModifier = 2.5
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleActiveRadiator
        maxEnergyTransfer = 2500
    }
}

Thank you so much for this - it makes a lot more sense for potential "atmospheric use" parts to be active rather than passive. I mean, come on Squad, even my motherboard has active cooling available to it.

[RoverDude]

Upon further inspection, the surface area : mass ratio is actually reasonably consistent between static and folding radiators, but still, there is very little reason to ever use static radiators.

They have proven to be awesome for managing engine overheat during an ascent stage. Also don't blow off in atmo, and as you noted, they have appropriate mass/surface area ratios. And you can layer them.

[DerekL1963]

EDIT:

Upon further inspection, the surface area : mass ratio is actually reasonably consistent between static and folding radiators, but still, there is very little reason to ever use static radiators.

Spot cooling is still somewhat useful for LV-N powered designs.

[Daishi]

Nertea and Roverdude - how is heat dissipation actually calculated for these things (and the stock mechanics)? Based on the visible mesh and its interaction with shaders, or the simplified CM? Would the radiators need explicitly more surface area in their collision meshes to work properly?

Sorry to be a bother but i can't find any definitive dev data on surface area heat, either on the forums or on the wiki.

[Streetwind]

I don't know very much about it, but as far as I gathered, it's classic blackbody radiation based on the part's drag cube.

[Daishi]

I don't know very much about it, but as far as I gathered, it's classic blackbody radiation based on the part's drag cube.

That just raises more questions What's a drag cube? The approximation of the parts mesh again? Or boils down to the CM, or some other thing?

[Streetwind]

Drag cubes are computed automatically based on the mesh (I think), but don't represent it. For example, a radiator with a curved shape, like the GR-EXP, has a much bigger radiating ability than its size would suggest, because the curved shape generates a larger drag cube than you would get if you had the same surface area in a flat shape. All stock radiators as well as Heat Control's extensible XR series are also sightly better than they look, because they deploy into a flat zigzap shape instead of being completely flat. You can use the emissiveConstant field in each part config file to tune the exact amount of heat energy radiated at a specific radiator temperature.

You can find the drag cubes of all parts stored in PartDatabase.cfg in the KSP root directory. This file loves breaking horribly whenever you update KSP to a new version, or (somewhat less often) when you update a parts-containing mod to a new version. Parts get wrong drag cubes or lose them entirely, resulting in things like being unable to slow down on reentry or having zero heat emission capability. Because of this, ModuleManager simply deletes this file whenever it detects that something in the installation changed, and you can also delete it by hand if you suspect something is off. It will regenerate automatically on game startup with proper values.

This represents the entirety of my perceived knowledge about drag cubes

[MatterBeam]

Drag cubes are computed automatically based on the mesh (I think), but don't represent it. For example, a radiator with a curved shape, like the GR-EXP, has a much bigger radiating ability than its size would suggest, because the curved shape generates a larger drag cube than you would get if you had the same surface area in a flat shape. All stock radiators as well as Heat Control's extensible XR series are also sightly better than they look, because they deploy into a flat zigzap shape instead of being completely flat. You can use the emissiveConstant field in each part config file to tune the exact amount of heat energy radiated at a specific radiator temperature.

You can find the drag cubes of all parts stored in PartDatabase.cfg in the KSP root directory. This file loves breaking horribly whenever you update KSP to a new version, or (somewhat less often) when you update a parts-containing mod to a new version. Parts get wrong drag cubes or lose them entirely, resulting in things like being unable to slow down on reentry or having zero heat emission capability. Because of this, ModuleManager simply deletes this file whenever it detects that something in the installation changed, and you can also delete it by hand if you suspect something is off. It will regenerate automatically on game startup with proper values.

This represents the entirety of my perceived knowledge about drag cubes

Best read in a long while.

Now, if you have the time and knowledge, can you simply explain what Nertea has to do to remove the overheating problems from Near Future Propulsion engines?

[Streetwind]

What overheating problems?

Well, I suppose if you try to run the 1.0.2 version of the mod in 1.0.4, there might be heat issues. The way parts handle heat changed with 1.0.3/4, so NF Propulsion (like all part mods with heat sources) needs to be updated. It's already in the works and may or may not happen soon.

EDIT: And there we go, update is out. Try and see if you still encounter issues now.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Streetwind

[autumnalequinox]

Not sure if this is in the scope of this mod, but at work the other day I thought of a (possibly) nifty idea. A "coolant" resource that could be contained in a heat exchanger or other kind of power consuming module. The resource could slowly deplete (evaporation) but provide very efficient cooling when combined with a radiator. It could make for a nice active heat control system. Plus I was just reminded of the many, many RL missions and EVAs involving fixing "coolant" systems on Skylab and the ISS.

Would also make a fun target for the many part breaking mods out there ::evil grin::

Edit: Just spotted a mod that makes use of something like this. So def not an original idea on my part

Edited July 15, 2015 by autumnalequinox

[MaverickSawyer]

What overheating problems?

Well, I suppose if you try to run the 1.0.2 version of the mod in 1.0.4, there might be heat issues. The way parts handle heat changed with 1.0.3/4, so NF Propulsion (like all part mods with heat sources) needs to be updated. It's already in the works and may or may not happen soon.

EDIT: And there we go, update is out. Try and see if you still encounter issues now.

So, there is a 1.0.4-compatible build? Where?

[Drew Kerman]

So, there is a 1.0.4-compatible build? Where?

He was referring to NearFuture Electrical/Propulsion. Nertea has said he will return to this eventually but is right now focusing on his Mk4 spaceplane parts

[MaverickSawyer]

He was referring to NearFuture Electrical/Propulsion. Nertea has said he will return to this eventually but is right now focusing on his Mk4 spaceplane parts

Sooo... I have to suffer through the stock parts for now? :'(

Bummer. Gonna miss this in the meantime.

[Captain Sierra]

Sooo... I have to suffer through the stock parts for now? :'(

Bummer. Gonna miss this in the meantime.

Or suffer through 1.0.2. I'm trying to persuade Nertea to just recompile the pre-stock-radiator HC for 1.0.4 as a temp fix (just so something exists for people).

[bonesbro]

Yes, please, I can't upgrade to 1.0.4 because I am using the heat control radiators on some of my stations.

[JaredTheDragon]

For anyone interested, Nertea's Mk4 parts are up now for 1.04. I'm giving them a spin tonight, I missed them! And thanks so much for all your hard work around here. I'm certainly looking forward to an update of this set when you're ready.

[h=2][1.04] Mark IV Spaceplane System - The 'redo everything' update - bigger and better[/h]