DBowman

[1.2.2] Soylent - Life Support through Algae. [v0.06.1 2016.12.31 - big hellfire]

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Any chance this will support the USI LS mod in the future?

I did have the intention to also support other LS including USI. I've just not acted on it yet, avoiding thinking about the module manager HAS clauses etc.

For USI it looks simple enough - make the super critical water oxidation unit do Mulch -> Slurry and algae arrays -> Supplies. Though I'd want to be careful to preserve USI 'game balance'.

Do you know is USI LS part of MKS/OSK? or is it an optional 'mixin'?

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It is a stand alone mod which is supported by many of the parts from mks. I believe that LS is now fully closed loop in MKS/OKS, though I haven't actually played ksp in a while to check things out (to busy building a house).

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I second the idea of multiplicating soylent starter in lab modules... And require a level 4-5 scientist too ... :)

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A question - I have tweakscale installed and something that adds tweaking to the gigantor. It looks like these become tweakable too. Does the generator scale?

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Sorry I don't know how tweakscale will affect the generators, I imagine it won't since I've done nothing to make it tweakscale compatible. I think you could see what the effect is; if you looked in the .craft file of the tweaked up craft I think you can see the resulting tweaked generator module 'block' and compare it to the one in the parts folder.

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NASA just announced the winners of a challenge they ran http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-announces-winners-for-mars-challenge-on-achieving-earth-independence-0

It was a three way win, one was: Pierre Blosse, from Urbandale, Iowa, for his entry: Starch from the Micro-Algae Chlorella as the Main Food Source for a Self-Sustaining Martian Colony.

Go Algae!!

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It should be big and green 'out of the box'. It doesn't need TACLS, but if it's there it will do the LS stuff.

The green comes from re-texturing and uses a particular image file that has to be in a particular place relative to GameData. If the mod is 'in the wrong place' under GameData I'd expect it to not be green. You should see a file GameData\UberDyneAstronautics\Soylent\gigantorSoylentGreen\model000.g.dds If you installed as GameData\Soylent (for example) the parts would show up but not be red/green or have the.

Also check the small arrays, they should be solar arrays but with a 'decal' bio-tri-foil kind of thing - if that is missing there is a systematic re-texture problem.

Please let me know what you find.

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It should be big and green 'out of the box'. It doesn't need TACLS, but if it's there it will do the LS stuff.

The green comes from re-texturing and uses a particular image file that has to be in a particular place relative to GameData. If the mod is 'in the wrong place' under GameData I'd expect it to not be green. You should see a file GameData\UberDyneAstronautics\Soylent\gigantorSoylentGreen\model000.g.dds If you installed as GameData\Soylent (for example) the parts would show up but not be red/green or have the.

Also check the small arrays, they should be solar arrays but with a 'decal' bio-tri-foil kind of thing - if that is missing there is a systematic re-texture problem.

Please let me know what you find.

thanks, that was it. looks great

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Sorry I don't know how tweakscale will affect the generators, I imagine it won't since I've done nothing to make it tweakscale compatible. I think you could see what the effect is; if you looked in the .craft file of the tweaked up craft I think you can see the resulting tweaked generator module 'block' and compare it to the one in the parts folder.

Yeah it looks like TacGenericConverter doesn't store the conversion data in the craft file - it must use the data from the original cfg for the module. I'm going to try to use ModuleResourceConverter and see if that works differently. a 200% size "green" gigantor should be able to handle 4 kerbals :-).

If I get it working I will share my configs.

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Nice - be careful I think ModuleResourceConverter uses different units, also I'm not sure it correctly handles 'out of focus' / 'on rails' / 'high warp' / 'very low conversion rates like LS requires' ( not saying it doesn't, but TAC has the heritage ). Does tweakscale scale conversions by ModuleResourceConverter?

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Nice - be careful I think ModuleResourceConverter uses different units, also I'm not sure it correctly handles 'out of focus' / 'on rails' / 'high warp' / 'very low conversion rates like LS requires' ( not saying it doesn't, but TAC has the heritage ). Does tweakscale scale conversions by ModuleResourceConverter?

You can scale the EfficiencyBonus, which determines how fast the conversions happen.

When you scale up the green gigantor to 200%, it will process 4 kerbals worth of resources instead of 1. At 300%, it processes 9 kerbals worth. I had to override the default tweakscale which scales the converters as the volume scales instead of the surface area.

I created an example, as well as a large unit that uses the hitchhiker module and processes up to 9 kerbals worth of waste into slurry. Also holds 200 units of sterile organic slurry to help the processing "catch up" after returning to the vessel.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1731C32CC90F1274!649&authkey=!AL-1jKhqnuczTbU&ithint=folder%2ccfg

I figured I'd rather use the pessimistic mode - Soylent Green, and this tweak plus the converter hitchhiker does the trick.

One thing I was thinking of doing would be to make this interoperate with MKS and have a converter that converts "Minerals", "Chemicals", and "Polymers" into SoylentStarter.

Edited by westamastaflash

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You can scale the EfficiencyBonus, which determines how fast the conversions happen.

When you scale up the green gigantor to 200%, it will process 4 kerbals worth of resources instead of 1. At 300%, it processes 9 kerbals worth. I had to override the default tweakscale which scales the converters as the volume scales instead of the surface area.

Makes sense. My mass estimates are mostly surface area dependant also - mainly tubes full of water. Maybe even the hardware for pumping and slewing is mostly surface area dependant.

Oh - I guess this adds a tweak-scale dependency also? oops I see you've written the config so TweakScale can properly scale it and not clog the parts bins - nice. It's great that you shared the .cfg for any who want it. Next time I make a rev of the mod I could add your TweakableGigantor? Should be easy to make it only appear if TweakScale is present, if not maybe a couple of hand done larger ones.

I created an example, as well as a large unit that uses the hitchhiker module and processes up to 9 kerbals worth of waste into slurry. Also holds 200 units of sterile organic slurry to help the processing "catch up" after returning to the vessel.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1731C32CC90F1274!649&authkey=!AL-1jKhqnuczTbU&ithint=folder%2ccfg

I figured I'd rather use the pessimistic mode - Soylent Green, and this tweak plus the converter hitchhiker does the trick.

Nice, I wonder if the hitchhiker is easy to retexture / decal.
One thing I was thinking of doing would be to make this interoperate with MKS and have a converter that converts "Minerals", "Chemicals", and "Polymers" into SoylentStarter.
I'd been thinking to make it interoperate with MKS, but you know, other things came up. I'd not decided if it should allow manufacture of the 'magic limiting resource' - maybe it's fresh clean spores to re-boot a micro-biome gone wild, on the other hand in an MKS future they'd probably just 'print out a new copy of the genomes' to re-boot.

I put a ref to your .cfgs in the OP, to make them easy to find.

Edited by DBowman

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I guess this adds a tweak-scale dependency also? ... Next time I make a rev of the mod I could add your TweakableGigantor? Should be easy to make it only appear if TweakScale is present, if not maybe a couple of hand done larger ones.

Feel free to add the part, and a :NEEDS section that depends on TweakScale.

In addition - I would suggest refactoring the directory structure so it is in just one sub-directory, e.g. "GameData/Soylent" instead of the deeper subdirectory.

If someone wanted to release a mod that depended on soylent, right now it wouldn't work as ModuleManager only supports :NEEDS commands at one level up from the GameData folder (or use a DLL)

Nice, I wonder if the hitchhiker is easy to retexture / decal.

I'd been thinking to make it interoperate with MKS, but you know, other things came up. I'd not decided if it should allow manufacture of the 'magic limiting resource' - maybe it's fresh clean spores to re-boot a micro-biome gone wild, on the other hand in an MKS future they'd probably just 'print out a new copy of the genomes' to re-boot.

I put a ref to your .cfgs in the OP, to make them easy to find.

Thanks :-) If I have any time I will see about how it might integrate with MKS. My initial thought is that it could act as a super-charged version of the agricultural module (replacing the existing generator with one balanced for MKS resources), but perhaps make Kerbals less happy since they're eating goo.

Edited by westamastaflash

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I was thinking about adding "artificial light" to the arrays for far away trips and planets where nights are long. These can be powered by nuclear reactors, RTGs, or perhaps hydrogen fuel cells when the sun isn't shining.

I found a few interesting papers about algal bioreactors, plus the project rho link in the syolent file.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/elsc.200900003/pdf

http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9789400774933-c1.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1418516-p175367694

Anyway for gameplay purposes I figure a PPFD of 400 micromoles / (m^2*s) ( 0.4 mmol / m^2/s) ?

I can't tell for sure how much LED light energy we need for growing in the appropriate spectra. Some sources say 0.1 mmol / (m^2* s) and 1.5 mmol / J, the project rho link says 1.7 micromol/J.

It seems that the amount of energy needed for a bioreactor is pretty small in comparison to some of the larger generator capabilities, so a fuel cell might provide plenty of power during periods of night?

For 1 gigantor (13 square meters), worst case sounds like we'll need 3.25kW generating capacity (a small hydrogen fuel cell): 3.25 ec/s plus the pumps.

I was thinking of a separate no-flow resource "bulbs" that are slowly used up over time (25,000 hrs?) - or perhaps just make use of the "SpecializedParts" in MKS.

Thoughts?

Edited by westamastaflash

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I was thinking about adding "artificial light" to the arrays for far away trips and planets where nights are long. These can be powered by nuclear reactors, RTGs, or perhaps hydrogen fuel cells when the sun isn't shining...

Thanks for the reference, I'll take look.

I'd thought to add artificial light:

  • a positive - Apparently plants only use a small part of the spectrum & only a fraction of the 'earth normal ambient light' so an appropriate 'limited spectrum + appropriate intensity grow LED' would be much lower power than a 'reading lamp' - I don't have the docs to hand an cannot recall the exact figures. You could sure imagine the arrays being 'backlit' when required, I'm not sure how to add an 'active light texture'.
  • a negative - I gave up on the idea as I started looking at overcoming the stock behaviour of 'ah just don't bother generating e above a certain warp'. To get it to work properly it seemed like you'd have to 'fix' every other power source to generate under high warp and 'catch up after being on rails'. I'd originally wanted to use 'photon logic' to drive production, but on rails stock doesn't do any shadowing etc so that also would be a much larger scale / more intricate undertaking.
  • somewhere in between - some kind of 'stackable' bio-reactor is probably the natural solution too near/far from the sun - I'm not sure what would look 'interesting' for that kind of setup. I cannot see why it wouldn't look like a TAC converter or an Ore tank or something which is not so visually interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

Ping me if you want to discuss MKS integration, always nice to see other folks tie into it :)

Hey thanks - I've got some other things I have to get out of the way first. When I'd looked things over I'd thought to make it a 'workalike' for one of the agri modules (aeroponics maybe?)

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somewhere in between - some kind of 'stackable' bio-reactor is probably the natural solution too near/far from the sun - I'm not sure what would look 'interesting' for that kind of setup. I cannot see why it wouldn't look like a TAC converter or an Ore tank or something which is not so visually interesting.

Agreed - Basically a bunch of tubes and LEDs.

I'm not a graphics guy, but maybe it could be a crewable part with a neat IVA?

One of the advantages also of LEDs - how well does algae do under cosmic radiation? Plants appear to have lots of problems in the sun without any radiation shielding.

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I'm not a graphics guy, but maybe it could be a crewable part with a neat IVA?

One of the advantages also of LEDs - how well does algae do under cosmic radiation? Plants appear to have lots of problems in the sun without any radiation shielding.

IVA would deliver some 'candy' - that's beyond me at the moment though.

Re cosmic rays and such. I could not find (superficial look admittedly) any hard numbers, there seemed to be various research projects trying to find out though. Since we are mostly dealing with uni-cellular organisms I'd expect some attrition rate offsetting the growth from light. For multi-cellular I imagine one 'bad hit' could amplify the damage via cancer or some other critical failure making them much more vulnerable.

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Hey, awesome mod

 

I've been looking through a bunch of mods I could use to turn KSP into a space colonization game where you slowly build the tech up to have self sustaining colonies on every planet that mine and transport up fuel and rocket parts to the stations in orbit above them, that you can then ship back to kerbin for money while the stations produce science for you, and this is a great fit, can't wait to test it when KSP version 1.1 comes out with 64 bit and I can actually load half of my planned mods before the game crashes :P

 

I have a few questions. First, I heard that growing plants in space is pretty difficult, since the lack of gravity means plants, soil and water have issues staying together, probably among other things that are past my understanding. I don't know if this is a problem with algae, but it would be a cool extra challenge if the panels only work at a certain minimal gravity level (pretty much any planet or moon other than gilly), meaning you have to have the food shipped up from colony base "farms" and can't have "free" production in space, with it being optional of course

 

Besides that, I honestly don't really like the current trifold biohazard artwork on the algae panel housing (sorry :/, it looks threatening as hell for something your kerbals are supposed to be eating) I made you a "soylent green/red" logo that I think will look like it fits in pretty good on the stock parts, you might like it more :wink: (made it pretty high res just in case, so it's hidden in the spoiler. Background should be transparent)

Spoiler

qKD9dER.png

 

Edited by Tripod27

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17 hours ago, Tripod27 said:

Hey, awesome mod

Thanks for the kind words. Also thanks for the art work, very elegant! I know what you mean re the bio-hazard vs bio-num-num. I'll keep your idea in mind next time I'm tweaking things, I'd be inclined to see how the deco font in the OP looked though.

Re 'plants in space' I think they have a lot of problems in zero-G or under gravity:

  • Zero-g and plant growth, I'm sure they use gravity to set their/up down. So centrifuges for part of the lifecycle.
  • High plant density and ventilation work against each other
  • The 'root ball' would have to grow into some medium, which would have to be a recycle-able medium
  • The ideal CO2, O2, & humidity for plants is not what humans like => two life support regimes
  • There is significant 'wasted space' around the leaves to ensure light access and 'agri worker' access
  • Large proportion of plants are not edible => has to be recycled
  • So far it all looks very labor intensive

Thats why I like 'liquid medium micro-biomes' for space - algae, plankton, bacteria, sea monkeys, etc. It's all industrial and pumped around, any-g (just different plumbing), there is no need for a human to operate in the biome so it can be optimal (you like methane eaters or some sulfur eating hydrothermal vent native - no problem), and the lower down the food chain you eat the more efficient it is.

 

 

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Hello,

Borroqed the Koylent Maker idea from BIOMASS !?

BIOMASS also as an Algae Greenhouse, and in my opinion, for space survival, and reading what algae is best suited for in space, creating oxygen, not food !

BIOMASS algae greenhouse does this; altho I have not looked at the resource rates, the idea is already there.

BIOMASS idea for 'koylent' uses BIOMASS as a product to make food.

I have not looked at the idea of making food out of algae; does sound interesting tho and algae could have a double use here; maybe a secondary food source.

I also look at cryogenic storage of food; right now my long term food storage is MRE's; freeze-dried food.

I dont know the shelf life of freeze-dried (?) algae food.

Hmm I reread the post; methane-eating bacteria for high protein pellets for salmon food ?! I will take this idea of yours (I also think I read it some where as well I just forgot about it. Growing fish for food; I didnt think if this; DUH ! Maybe Kerbals eat goldfish ! LOL drill for gold and make goldfish, KSP Style !

Commander Zeta

Edited by Cdr_Zeta

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A couple of thoughts on USI-LS integration...  (Just ideas, for discussion.)

While you can of course just duplicate the greenhouses, I think it'd be more interesting to have a different set of trade-offs.  So I have a couple ideas for roles these panels could play in that system.  (And I don't know how hard they might be to do, so tell me if I'm suggesting to much work.)

First off would be a very high materials efficiency greenhouse (nearly 100% closed loop - a little water or minerals or both inputs if any, but no fertilizer), but have it increase homesickness slightly faster.  Basically, it supplies food much more effectively than the 'normal' cycle, but your Kerbals can tell it's not 'real' food, and they miss having real food.

The other idea would be that you could switch from 'food mode' to 'fertilizer mode' - so you could use these to produce fertilizer which you could then put into a more normal greenhouse to output real food.  (Which doesn't have the homesickness penalties.)

Of course you could combine the two.  ;)

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