[1.12.x] DeepFreeze (v0.31.0) 12th Sep 2021

[JPLRepo]

39 minutes ago, Deimos Rast said:

Here are some guidelines I think might be worth keeping in mind (as caps on ratios):

• Large Ore Tank = 1500
• Large XenonGas Tank = 5250
• Large Water Container (TACLS) = 2200 (considered as minimum)
• Gigantor Solar XL = 24.4 (x1 min for standard x2 min for turbo)
• Fuel Cell Array = 18 (bit disappointed by this, devs plz fix)
• Large Radiator Panel = 0.025 EC/s
• Large Folding Radiator = 0.5 EC/s

I made a spreadsheet where I worked out what the ratios should be with the above rough guidelines as caps on ratios/inputs. It's vastly simplified the process, except for the minor problem that ingame results don't match up with the expected ones. But as I learned in high school chemistry, if the data doesn't match the hypothesis, the data must be changed!

Current Formula in testing*:

• Glykerol (Standard): 13.2 Water + 6 XenonGas + 24.4 EC/s = 0.006 Glykerol
  • (Normalized x1): 2200 Water + 1000 XenonGas + 4067 EC = 1.0 Glykerol
  • (Normalized x5): 11000 Water + 5000 XenonGas + 20333 EC = 5.0 Glykerol
• Glykerol (Turbo): 13.2 Water + 6 XenonGas + 90 Ore + 73.2 EC/s = 0.06 Glykerol
  • (Normalized x1): 220 Water + 100 XenonGas + 1500 Ore + 1220 EC = 1 Glykerol
  • (Normalized x5): 1100 Water + 500 XenonGas + 7500 Ore + 6100 EC = 5 Glykerol

Goal is 1day or 6hrs for 1 Glykerol (or 5days or 30hrs for 5 Glykerol).

Note on the above "Normalized" quantities: those are total quantities, not rate. The first line of each formula is rate (per second I believe).

How Turbo mode works (I'm not entirely content with it's current incarnation): You're basically burning Ore to expedite the process. ElectricCharge is used at three times the rate, but because it's happening ten times faster (0.006 -> 0.06) less total EC is expended. It doesn't necessarily have to be ten times faster, but I think it needs to be significant to warrant the hassle of adding in an entire new resource into the supply chain. If we wanted to keep it at the same total EC cost expended...well EC/s would need to be something like 244 which is equivalent to ten Gigantor's which seems a tad high. Personally, I would just as soon this ISRU converter require the player to run it on a reactor (a la USI's Reactor Pack or NFE's Fission Reactors), but I can understand some people being hesitant about such things.

So, do we like this formula? Burning Ore seems a bit weird here. "Combustion" maybe, but that seems an odd word to associate with a gelatinous freezing process. I'd prefer it if the roles of XenonGas and Ore were switched, but then we'd have a Water + Ore reaction (essentially splashing rocks with water), which magically yields Glykerol, which I am even less fond of.

There are other resources to consider in place of Ore: some combination of Uraninite/Substrate/Minerals might not be too bad. But that would just be radioactive pitch clay, no?

Going to cut this wall short.

Fantastic @Deimos Rast.
But - I am still thinking a third item on top of the water and XenonGas. Water and XenonGas can be found in atmosphere and in oceans. (check out the CRP configs). I like the addition of Ore for turbo mode. Need to see these numbers in testing though to confirm the times and roughly times to harvest the inputs as well.
What do others think?
 

[Itsdavyjones]

If you want a third item on top of water and xenon, perhaps minerals would be a good idea, but not many, say 100 per glykerol.  Perhaps that could be a constant with both formula's, essentially containing things that ore doesn't have in it.

[Deimos Rast]

2 hours ago, Itsdavyjones said:

If you want a third item on top of water and xenon, perhaps minerals would be a good idea, but not many, say 100 per glykerol.  Perhaps that could be a constant with both formula's, essentially containing things that ore doesn't have in it.

a sort of "trace Minerals" sort of like we need in our multivitamins? And the Ore approach could represent a "if a little is good then a lot must be better" mentality frequent to kerbals? No idea where to even find a mineral container to peg it to, so sure, 100 sounds good. I'll root around to see if I can come up with a container from a reputable (respects CRP) mod for them so we have something to recommend (we could just make patches, meh). I'm sure WBI or USI probably has one.

As a mental note, someone remind me, or someone else, to check unit costs at the end of all this, to make sure those are factored somewhat. Right now I'm mainly judging costs based on container costs, assuming the player provides the resources, but containers costs don't always balance out the best.

I don't think I mentioned it, but I temporarily removed core heat from my testing rig till I get the ratios right, since that should just flat scale things based on thermal efficiency. Same with Scientist bonuses (which @Itsdavyjones are the exact same as you would find in the stock ISRU; I believe it's just a flat % bonus to production and another to do with heating some how - only thing changed is which class is required).

[JPLRepo]

On 17/06/2016 at 5:54 AM, Deimos Rast said:

a sort of "trace Minerals" sort of like we need in our multivitamins? And the Ore approach could represent a "if a little is good then a lot must be better" mentality frequent to kerbals? No idea where to even find a mineral container to peg it to, so sure, 100 sounds good. I'll root around to see if I can come up with a container from a reputable (respects CRP) mod for them so we have something to recommend (we could just make patches, meh). I'm sure WBI or USI probably has one.

As a mental note, someone remind me, or someone else, to check unit costs at the end of all this, to make sure those are factored somewhat. Right now I'm mainly judging costs based on container costs, assuming the player provides the resources, but containers costs don't always balance out the best.

I don't think I mentioned it, but I temporarily removed core heat from my testing rig till I get the ratios right, since that should just flat scale things based on thermal efficiency. Same with Scientist bonuses (which @Itsdavyjones are the exact same as you would find in the stock ISRU; I believe it's just a flat % bonus to production and another to do with heating some how - only thing changed is which class is required).

Thanks. Did you find a container? Otherwise I can always create one. Are there any mods using Minerals from CRP? Reading through the CRP thread it would appear MKS/OKS might? or did at one stage if it doesn't now. but I am pretty sure ExtraPlanetary Launchpads used to use it as well, it it doesn't still.

Let me know when you have numbers you are happy with to share with us all to go over. Oh, and thanks heaps for doing this.

[Deimos Rast]

TLDR: Yes, but in wildly varying quantities. Probably around 1250 - 2500 is a "standard volume."

Boy did I ever, but not as clearly defined as I would like. Basically, the two juggernauts in the ISRU field are Umbra Space Industries and Wild Blue Industries.

In the USI suite of mods, by RoverDude, we have Asteroid Mining Technologies, Asteroid Recycling Technologies, Freight Transport Tech, Karibou Rover, Kontainers, and UKS (and probably UKS-Lite, but I didn't have access to it). Problem with the Mineral quantities in these packs is they either require the tank to be an Asteroid (ART), or are in the 3.75m or 5.0m form factor and at nearly 50,000 units (FTT). The Kontainers pack is the best bet, and it shows a 1250 and a 2500. UKS is mainly ISRU converters. You can find containers for Ore, XenonGas, Minerals, and Water.

WBI has a lot of unique resources that you don't see other places, ones not in the CRP (Coolant I believe is not in the CRP). Angel-125's Pathfinder mod is heavily focused on geoscience and ISRU. You can find containers for Ore, XenonGas, Minerals, and Water. Water and Minerals both clock in at 5600.

I've played with both for a while, and I would recommend recommending both or either of them, if for no other reason than they're only ones in the room. They both also happen to be pretty damn cool.

--

ExtraPlanetary Launchpads does not use Minerals, using instead Metal, Ore, and RocketParts. It also favors Kethane over the more CRP-aligned Karbonite. On a slightly related note, and something I have been working on, EPL/Kethane has some seriously cool toys, such as BahaD's Augers. They're ancient (0.23 era) and use Kethane modules, but I've set about trying to get them to work as dedicated Water/Ice drills, since I haven't found a good water specific drill yet. I seem to remember getting them to work in 1.0.5, and I have the files still, so we'll see how it goes.

Regarding the actual point of all this, have I made any progress? Not really, although KSP is behaving a little better. Honestly, I took the day off, and played with a new kitten (8 weeks old).

Although, I've been looking at the OSE Workshop mod, and it's real slick. It allows you to do off world VAB like building. Print your own Glykerol on site, eh eh?

OSE_ResourceRecipe
{
	name = Glykerol
	RESOURCES
	{
		Ore = 1
	}	
}

 

[panarchist]

On 6/16/2016 at 2:52 AM, Deimos Rast said:

So, do we like this formula? Burning Ore seems a bit weird here. "Combustion" maybe, but that seems an odd word to associate with a gelatinous freezing process. I'd prefer it if the roles of XenonGas and Ore were switched, but then we'd have a Water + Ore reaction (essentially splashing rocks with water), which magically yields Glykerol, which I am even less fond of.

Not necessarily "burning".  It's using ore.  It could be a catalyst, like platinum in catalytic converters, or it could be used for another part of a chemical reaction, like sacrificial anodes in pipes.  It merely means that you need to use a specific amount of ore to obtain some material needed in the process.  Probably some sort of rare metal like platinum or iridium, or whatever, but the chemical reaction used to create Glykerol would be using some sort of catalyst in turbo mode to speed things up, and obtaining it requires enough ore to get the tiny amount of the catalyst required.

When I say "catalyst", I'm being fuzzy with the definition, because a true catalyst isn't consumed in the reaction.  However, catalysts do degrade in their process most of the time through other factors like thermal expansion / contraction.  Platinum in a catalytic converter isn't chemically consumed, but over the life of the converter half the platinum is lost, presumably by flaking off the elements and leaving the converter through the car's exhaust.

[Deimos Rast]

@panarchist

That's a fair point. I guess my issue is Ore is just such a generic term. (Slight aside, but this might be a personality thing: it's interesting that when I said "uses Ore" way back when, I had in mind more of a Glykerol (as some type of gelatinous bacteria) feeding on the Ore, in the here and now, in a literal sense of a "rocky fertilizer" or more recently, a lump of coal, if you will. You took it at a more abstract level, seeing more it's a potential representative of precious resources pulled from the ground. Your view is probably the better approach - mine is admittedly intellectually & creatively lazy, although in my defense, I have habit of posting at 5am before bed, and usually half tongue-in-cheek.)

----

I got the drills to work. Turns out having the models and textures in the proper folders helps. Not saying we need to use them, but I think they're spiffy, the license is very good, and they've been abandoned since 0.23. BahaD seems to be otherwise occupied these days, but if we decide to go ahead with them, I know he's active on YouTube (although I don't really want to be that guy, as I'm sure he gets hounded a lot), assuming we want to ask for permission (couldn't hurt). I also converted everything to .dds (in the past I got almost everything updated to 1.0.5).

Alright, that's enough of side projects. Off to go see about actually getting proper ratios for the ISRU.

[Deimos Rast]

Well, bad news boys: I got out my abacus and slide rule and did some math and my numbers didn't work out. I know you're all disappointed. Below is what I managed to get though, let me know if it's adequate:

• Standard mode: 1.01 Glykerol produced in exactly 1 hour and 13.5 seconds. I know, it's terrible, don't look at me! (SEE EDIT BELOW)
  • Didn't help that I originally balanced it to work out to 1 day per 1 Glykerol, as outlined in a few posts above, but no one bothered to correct me.
• Tubro mode: Don't ask. I put it aside for the time being. Xenon/Water have been balanced perfectly for a while, but Ore will not behave. Last record was 1 Glykerol in 20 seconds. And that was when I was balancing it for 1 per day. It needs another look.
• I also made a few tweaks to the part itself (don't be scared); for example, while you can no longer surface attach the ISRU (which seemed silly), you can now surface attach things to it, like radiators. Also added some non-tweakable storage for QoL. And I might have increased its explosion potential.
• Current Standard formula is:
  • 0.60867 Water + 0.2767 XenonGas + 24.4 ElectricCharge = 0.0002766667 Glykerol
  • 2200 Water + 1000 XenonGas + 4067 ElectricCharge = 1 Glykerol
  • 11000 Water + 5000 XenonGas + 20333 ElectricCharge = 5 Glykerol
    • Note: Large Container of Water from TACLS is 2200 Units
    • Note: Large XenonGas Container (Stock) is 5250 Units
    • Note: Gigantor Solar XL produces 24.4 EC/s optimal conditions

@JPLRepo I'll give the part module a once over and send it to you so you can give it a whirl. Obviously, it's not done (see comments about Turbo/Infused mode), but I'd consider it "playable alpha/beta" material

 

Edit:

Just realized....producing 1 an hour means 5 hours, not 6 hours (i.e. a full kerbin day). I'll correct that and send it over.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Deimos Rast

[JPLRepo]

28 minutes ago, Deimos Rast said:

 

@JPLRepo I'll give the part module a once over and send it to you so you can give it a whirl. Obviously, it's not done (see comments about Turbo/Infused mode), but I'd consider it "playable alpha/beta" material

Great! I'm sure we can tweak it some more. Send it over via PM and your spreadsheet.
I want to work a configuration for RSS as well. Seeing that's what I personally usually play... and that has a 24 hour day.
Sounds like with these numbers (which sound pretty reasonable) we probably don't need the turbo mode just yet.
 

Edited June 20, 2016 by JPLRepo

[Deimos Rast]

Damn you quoted me before I could erase the second set of numbers, haha. I multiplied those instead of divided. I think. 5 am here, about ready to call it.

I'm just going to revert the changes and send over the 1hr per 1 Gly set, and I'll look at it again in the AM.

[JPLRepo]

I removed the quote.  No rush. GettIng late here and long day of real work tomorrow. I won't look at it for at least another 24 hours. Take your time.

Edited June 20, 2016 by JPLRepo

[Deimos Rast]

I like turbo mode mainly because it adds in Ore, which vicariously adds in a means for people to switch it out with Karbonite/Kethane/etc.

But 1hr isn't bad. Personally I think it's a bit light, but it works out neatly and we have to consider, as you mentioned, Life Support mods, or more importantly, attention spans

It also makes the conversion to RO or any other time scale very easy.

We could burn the third ingredient in place of some EC, and shave a little less time off? Originally I picked x10 as fast, but that's way too fast for a 1hr production time already.

Something to sit on for a while maybe, see if any one else has some more opinions on it.

Sent the config over.

Pretty much everything is equal to the stock ISRU. Probably could increase the cost.

[Deimos Rast]

Alright, 1.1.3 has been out for a total of 1 hour, so I get to be the first to ask: "Does this mod work with 1.1.3?"

Good, now that's out of the way, no one else can ask (I'm actually checking at the moment).

---

The reason I'm actually here is this. What if...we required the ISRU to be below ambient temperature (or even at near absolute zero) to function at all? This is a Freezing mod, we need to be chilling the Glykerol, right? It could have neat side effects like encouraging the player to play in the shade (dark side of the moon refineries or something). Which of course would mean no solar power. Trade offs. I think it has potential.

Especially considering the ISRU itself is creating heat, making it harder to cool. Fun fun.

I created a prototype cooling engine and fuel cell as a mockup to see how it works, but 1.1.3 hit before I could test it.

[JPLRepo]

Yes 1.1.3 has been out for a whole hour. I have a lot of RL going on this week. I'll get to it as soon as I can. So no one else needs to ask.

On another note Roverdude just updated CRP to include Glykerol. So going forward I'll be removing it from Deepfreeze and including CRP as a dependency. First step for the ISRU.

[Deimos Rast]

That was supposed to be a joke, but I suppose if you hear that day in and day out, it stops being funny.

Anyway, small report:

• I successfully froze and thawed a Kerbal.
• UI is intact and fully functional.
• AdvTP seemed fine, but wasn't testing it.
• KAC integration I couldn't test as KAC is dead at the moment.

DF did throw a couple errors. They seem pretty minor.

I'm reporting the errors so that others don't, and in case you were wondering. (Not a support request!)

 

160621T191712.962 [EXCEPTION] [DF.DeepFreezer.onceoffSetup] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
   at DF.DeepFreezer.onceoffSetup ()
   at DF.DeepFreezer.Update ()

160621T190752.007 [ERROR] [PDebug.Error] Invalid integer value! Field GlykerolRequired, value 2.5 on object of type DF.DeepFreezer

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Deimos Rast

[JPLRepo]

4 minutes ago, Deimos Rast said:

That was supposed to be a joke, but I suppose if you hear that day in and day out, it stops being funny.

Anyway, small report:

• I successfully froze and thawed a Kerbal.
• UI is intact and fully functional.
• AdvTP seemed fine, but wasn't testing it.
• KAC integration I couldn't test as KAC is dead at the moment.

DF did throw a couple errors. They seem pretty minor.

I'm reporting the errors so that others don't, and in case you were wondering.

 

160621T191712.962 [EXCEPTION] [DF.DeepFreezer.onceoffSetup] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
   at DF.DeepFreezer.onceoffSetup ()
   at DF.DeepFreezer.Update ()

160621T190752.007 [ERROR] [PDebug.Error] Invalid integer value! Field GlykerolRequired, value 2.5 on object of type DF.DeepFreezer

 

I'll look at it when I can. First error, could be just a timing issue on scene change, but also could be something more insidious.
Second error, that to me looks like you have modified your own version of the part config files to have a non integer value in the GlykerolRequired field of a DeepFreeezer part. (all the parts in the distribution zip  have integer values in this field, as it can only be an integer).

[Deimos Rast]

3 minutes ago, JPLRepo said:

I'll look at it when I can. First error, could be just a timing issue on scene change, but also could be something more insidious.
Second error, that to me looks like you have modified your own version of the part config files to have a non integer value in the GlykerolRequired field of a DeepFreeezer part. (all the parts in the distribution zip  have integer values in this field, as it can only be an integer).

Possible, but I've never seen it before.

Ah, that was an error to a different Freezer it seems. I made the Radial Freezer into a "high efficiency" model. Normally, I only post bug reports if I can replicate them from your freezers for this very reason. Your analysis is exactly correct.

[JPLRepo]

V0.22.3.0 released for KSP 1.1.3 - Note the CRP dependency now. See the OP for the full changelog.

[Kowgan]

Thank you for the effort, @JPLRepo! It's much appreciated.

[JPLRepo]

I've put out an updated BackgroundProcessing (for KSP 1.1.3) on my fork on github for those that use it. Links in the OP.

[Hadleyz]

Hey! Sorry for asking this (if it were already in the last 20 pages somewhere) But how's the TACLS fix going on? Can you give me an update? Did you found danfarnsy the current keeper of TACLS?

[JPLRepo]

3 hours ago, Hadleyz said:

Hey! Sorry for asking this (if it were already in the last 20 pages somewhere) But how's the TACLS fix going on? Can you give me an update? Did you found danfarnsy the current keeper of TACLS?

It's linked  in the OP, which means it works and in the change log. DeepFreeze works fine with the new release of TACLS

and the link / post about it is only about 5 pages back. Thread search feature works too.

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by JPLRepo

[Hadleyz]

I just asked this becouse kerbals still consuming life support resources while in deep freeze.

[JPLRepo]

Well then that sounds like a bug. Can you reproduce and Can you provide a log please?

Edited July 8, 2016 by JPLRepo

[Deimos Rast]

To save you typing:

Quote

When I ask for a LOG I mean this LOG:

1. The Logs
   These are text files that the game spits out for debugging purposes as it runs; if something broke horribly in-game, there will be something in here about it. You should upload the entire log as a file (i.e. not to pastebin); you can use dropbox or an equivalent host to upload the file. Make sure the entire file gets uploaded; you may have to zip it first, as logs can be very long. Here is where you can find the log:
   • Windows: KSP_win\KSP_Data\output_log.txt (32bit) or KSP_win64\KSP_x64_Data\output_log.txt (64bit)
   • Mac OS X: Open Console, on the left side of the window there is a menu that says 'files'. Scroll down the list and find the Unity drop down, under Unity there will be Player.log ( Files>~/Library/Logs>Unity>Player.log )
   • Linux: ~/.config/unity3d/Squad/Kerbal\ Space\ Program/Player.log