[1.8.1] ETT - Engineering Tech Tree - May 4, 2020

[inigma]

fresh new install on a new computer. ckan is not showing the latest ETT. you might want to raise a support issue with the CKAN folks if you haven't already.

[inigma]

@Probus 

Ok, on to the Sounding Rockets side of the my balance pass.  This is a doozy. I'll revisit aircraft parts in another post at another time.

Essentially I've discovered the ETT starting techs are a bit illogical. You've got players unable to research airplanes without having to do a rocket mission - which invalidates ETT's stated mandate to allow a player to choose which path they can take. In short, ETT's mandate practically demands no other starting technologies except for that to make a basic science golf cart, manned or unmanned. I worked on modifying my own ETT and tested how it looks. So here are the changes I made, and here are my recommendations:

 

 

These ideas are based on a theory that wheels and a basic chassis is already available to the player at the start - that the first means to gather science to a stock or modded player is by driving around. This is also the theory behind GAP and is consistent with the CCF framework. It only gives the starting player small and unreliable rover wheels at the start, a battery, and a cubic strut for building a small car chassis.

 

RoveMax Model S2 from Field Science to Starting Technology

roverWheel2 to start

 

Small Battery Pack from Electrics to Starting Technology

batteryPack to start

 

Cubic Strut from Meta-Materials to Starting Technology

strutCube to start

 

Now with the starting technology for a basic car out of the way, construction materials should follow smallest to largest in progression:

 

Octagonal Strut from Meta-Materials to General Construction

strutOcto to generalConstruction

 

Mini I Beam from Meta-Materials to General Construction

structuralIBeam3 to generalConstruction

 

I Beam from Meta-Materials to Advanced Metal Works

structuralIBeam2 to advMetalworks

 

Running around with a car to gather some science should really be the only starting option available to players unless players opt in to start their games with science points to spend. Starting with a car gives players a reliable non-rocket option to grinding the science to start planes, or rockets, as is your intent with ETT for players to choose either or.

 

That said, for starters, I think the thermometer should come before a barometer:

 

2HOT Thermometer from Basic Science to Starting Technology

sensorThermometer to start

 

PresMat Barometer from Starting Technology to Basic Science

sensorBarometer to basicScience

 

and because of the ETT’s intent to provide a player the opportunity to choose aviation or rockets first, this is why I propose moving the Flea Solid Rocket Booster to Solid Rockets:

 

RT-5 "Flea" Solid Fuel Booster from Starting Technology to Solid Rockets

solidBooster_sm to solidRockets

 

If a player wants to start flying solid rockets, they are welcome to science grind to it...through two nodes I propose before Solid Rockets which make for logical technical progression:

 

Model Rockets (modelRockets) 1 science

 

and then

 

Sounding Rockets (soundingRockets) 5 science

 

Model Rockets node should contain the stock sepratron since it’s the closest equivalent in the stock game to a solid fuel sounding rocket per se (and makes early gliders a possibility by giving players an early game boost - literally - which is way lighter than attaching the lead weight of a Flea), and USi’s Sounding Rocket’s most basic motor and parts:

 

Sepratron I from Ullage Motors to Solid Motors

sepMotor1 to soundingRockets

 

USi Sounding Rockets SRM-S Sounding Rocket Motor from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_Rocket_35_01 to modelRockets

 

USi Sounding Rockets Nosecone Parachute (0.35m) from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_Nosecone_35 to modelRockets

 

USi Sounding Rockets Launch Stick from Starting Technology to Solid Motors

SR_LaunchStick to modelRockets

 

USi Sounding Rockets Payload Fairing (0.35m) from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_PayloadFairing_35 to modelRockets

 

USi Sounding Rockets Payload Truss (0.35m) from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_PayloadTruss_35

 

USi Sounding Rockets Rocket fin (small) from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_Wing_03

 

USi Sounding Rockets Avionics Package from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_ProbeCore

 

USi Sounding Rockets Materials Study Mini-Lab from Starting Technology to Model Rockets

SR_Payload_01

 

Sounding Rockets node should contain:

 

SR_Rocket_35_02

SR_Payload_02

SR_Payload_03

SR_Payload_04

SR_Wing_02

 

Also, Sounding Rockets tends to have its simple parts spreading to other nodes on ETT that just don’t make sense. I recommend putting all other Sounding Rocket parts not listed above in an Advanced Sounding Rockets node that branches off from the Sounding Rockets node above.

 

Advanced Sounding Rockets (advSoundingRockets) 10 science

 

Advanced Sounding Rockets nodes should contain:

 

all other USi Sounding Rocket parts not listed above

 

Furthermore you might want to move the radial parachute from Starting Technology to Survivability, as golf carts don’t need parachutes… yet.

 

Finally I recommend changing the name Propulsion Systems to Liquid Rockets as it is more description of the intent of that tree. The science cost for Liquid Rockets should be equal to Aviation (since it’s the choice in ETT right?) so make it 15 from the current 1, and boost Basic Rocketry to 25 from the current 10.

 

Edit: I should also mention that a basic fin does not seem to fit a car, unless one uses it for a hood covering, haha. But seriously, I was thinking about including it my aviation recommendations. I think aviation still needs a serious node redesign to include aerodynamics, flight control, engines, and other reorganiztion, but that's for later.

 

Has anyone come up with a GUI based tree editor?

Edited February 7, 2016 by inigma

[SpaceNomad]

9 hours ago, inigma said:

fresh new install on a new computer. ckan is not showing the latest ETT. you might want to raise a support issue with the CKAN folks if you haven't already.

@Probus

If I'm not mistaken, the version string format changed between 20160112 and 2016-01-15, note the added dashes. I assume, CKAN considers dashes to be lower than the numerics and thus considers the 20160112 version to be the highest in this year.

It seems, CKAN has the epoch field  which can be increased to tell it "we have changed the versioning scheme and consider all versions with higher epoch newer than those with lower epoch". There is also the related x-netkan-epoch field, I'm not sure how CKAN and NetKAN interact exactly.

In general, it's better to keep the versioning scheme stable to avoid trouble.

[Probus]

On 2/7/2016 at 6:48 AM, SpaceNomad said:

@Probus

If I'm not mistaken, the version string format changed between 20160112 and 2016-01-15, note the added dashes. I assume, CKAN considers dashes to be lower than the numerics and thus considers the 20160112 version to be the highest in this year.

It seems, CKAN has the epoch field  which can be increased to tell it "we have changed the versioning scheme and consider all versions with higher epoch newer than those with lower epoch". There is also the related x-netkan-epoch field, I'm not sure how CKAN and NetKAN interact exactly.

In general, it's better to keep the versioning scheme stable to avoid trouble.

Thanks @SpaceNomad.  Didn't notice I'd done that.

 

@inigma, I like it!  But alas, I talked to the Kerbal engineers.  No can do on the rovers.  They need a bit of science before they can research those parts.

I've added support for USI's Sounding Rockets to the next release of ETT.  Also a new node, Model Rockets, and a new branch accessible from the start: Rovers.  This is based on the USSR's early Lunokhod program.

Also shifted some parts around to make it easier to build a primitive glider and rocket at the start.

[inigma]

Just now, Probus said:

Thanks @SpaceNomad.  Didn't notice I'd done that.

 

@inigma, I like it!  But alas, I talked to the Kerbal engineers.  No can do on the rovers.  They need a bit of science before they can research those parts.

I've added support for USI's Sounding Rockets to the next release of ETT.  Also a new node, Model Rockets, and a new branch accessible from the start: Rovers.  This is based on the USSR's early Lunokhod program.

Also shifted some parts around to make it easier to build a primitive glider and rocket at the start.

@Probus Awesome! Agreed on the rover wheels. I sent you a pm - wanted to know what you think about the LY-05 alternative instead. less rover wheely, and gets the job done to allow players to start building cars first (not rovers).  

[legoclone09]

30 minutes ago, inigma said:

@Probus Awesome! Agreed on the rover wheels. I sent you a pm - wanted to know what you think about the LY-05 alternative instead. less rover wheely, and gets the job done to allow players to start building cars first (not rovers).  

Why not a modified (via MM) TR-2L wheel to be like a car wheel?

[Adik3714]

Is there a plan to implement the USI kolonization or station science to the right nodes?

Edited February 9, 2016 by Adik3714

[Probus]

1 hour ago, Adik3714 said:

Is there a plan to implement the USI kolonization or station science to the right nodes?

Yes.  Both of them were in there ages ago.  I have not updated them in a while.  I will give them a quick pass and see what needs to be done to get them up to date.

[panzerwaffe044]

Maybe that would be helpful:

- moved thermometer and barometer from AIES mod to the different locations in the tech tree to match the stock parts' locations;

Spoiler

@PART[Thermometermt1]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = basicScience
}

@PART[PAPBarometer]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = start
}

- added kOS mod, I decided to add the first kOS unit to basic science. I think that people who use this mod in career want to start using it as soon as possible. 95 science points is too far;

Spoiler

@PART[kOSMachine1m]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = basicScience
}
@PART[kOSMachine0m]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = electronics
}
@PART[kOSMachineRad]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = mechatronics
}

- added Procedural Fairings for Everything support. By default all the additional fairings appear in the aviation node. I moved them to specializedConstruction to match basic Procedural Fairings parts;

Spoiler

@PART[KzProcFairingAtlas]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingConeEgg]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingDelta]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingJupiter]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingLongMarch]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingLongMarch2]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingProton]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingGryphonSoyuz]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingTitan]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}
@PART[KzProcFairingGryphonTsyklon]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = specializedConstruction
}    

- moved the GoreSat part from Universal storage to proper location.

Spoiler

@PART[dmUSGoreSat]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = engineering101
}

[FreeThinker]

Have you made the Engenering tehtree compatible with CTT  2.3 already ? KSPI-E 2.6.5 now makes use of several of the new Technodes added by CTT 2.3

Edited February 11, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Kyrt Malthorn]

Probus, I love this mod.   Thank you for sharing the project with us all.  I just made a new copy of KSP and ETT was the first thing on it, so I could have a look at the tech layout.  Loved it, and all the empty nodes got me thinking, "Hmm, I bet I know what mod has some good parts for that...  And for that!  And that!!!"  I'm now hip-deep in mods, perhaps too many even with OpenGL and Dynamic Texture Management.  But I love it, and if it turns out to be unstable, I'll be on the edge of my seat for 1.1 w/ ETT and many more.  (I think I love tinkering with the game as much as I love playing it...).

Once again, thank you!

[inigma]

@Probus hey good buddy, have you figured out a way to convert a saved YongeTech tech tree to MM? 

[Probus]

On 2/10/2016 at 0:18 AM, panzerwaffe044 said:

Maybe that would be helpful:

- moved thermometer and barometer from AIES mod to the different locations in the tech tree to match the stock parts' locations;

- added kOS mod, I decided to add the first kOS unit to basic science. I think that people who use this mod in career want to start using it as soon as possible. 95 science points is too far;

- added Procedural Fairings for Everything support. By default all the additional fairings appear in the aviation node. I moved them to specializedConstruction to match basic Procedural Fairings parts;

- moved the GoreSat part from Universal storage to proper location.

@PART[dmUSGoreSat]:NEEDS[zETT]:FINAL
{
    @TechRequired = engineering101
}

Thanks a bunch @panzerwaffe044, I will get these integrated in my next release this weekend.

On 2/10/2016 at 0:39 AM, FreeThinker said:

Have you made the Engenering tehtree compatible with CTT  2.3 already ? KSPI-E 2.6.5 now makes use of several of the new Technodes added by CTT 2.3

Yes @FreeThinker. Interstellar was the original mod I made this tree for back with treeloader.  I haven't updated it to 2.6.5 though so I will check that for the next release.

[Probus]

15 hours ago, Kyrt Malthorn said:

Probus, I love this mod.   Thank you for sharing the project with us all.  I just made a new copy of KSP and ETT was the first thing on it, so I could have a look at the tech layout.  Loved it, and all the empty nodes got me thinking, "Hmm, I bet I know what mod has some good parts for that...  And for that!  And that!!!"  I'm now hip-deep in mods, perhaps too many even with OpenGL and Dynamic Texture Management.  But I love it, and if it turns out to be unstable, I'll be on the edge of my seat for 1.1 w/ ETT and many more.  (I think I love tinkering with the game as much as I love playing it...).

Once again, thank you!

Thanks @Kyrt Malthorn!  I really appreciate your feedback.   I enjoy working on this mod almost as much as playing the game.  Much more to come including a new Historical Tech Tree that is in development.

13 hours ago, inigma said:

@Probus hey good buddy, have you figured out a way to convert a saved YongeTech tech tree to MM? 

@inigma, I've run into a technical glitch with yonge's tree editor.  It has made me hesitant to convert ETT over to it.

BTW, How are the mods to the aviation side of the tree coming along.  Really looking forward to them!

Edited February 12, 2016 by Probus

[inigma]

3 hours ago, Probus said:

 

@inigma, I've run into a technical glitch with yonge's tree editor.  It has made me hesitant to convert ETT over to it.

BTW, How are the mods to the aviation side of the tree coming along.  Really looking forward to them!

I've got distracted with making this part-centric tech tree (rather than technology-family-centric): https://bubbl.us/?h=934b/628e0d/37NjN5.wx1052&r=1070278725

but if you have the latest dev version of ETT that I can download, I will work on the aviation parts for ETT this weekend! I have lots of time this weekend!  

 

Ya I figured out the Tech Tree Editor can't save stock tree with parts. Nasty bug. Only good for node editing.  We really need a good in-game tech tree editor with full GUI and drag and drop and snap and double click right in the R&D.

I should also share a little trick that works with the 0.3 version of Tech Tree Editor: you can load up KSP with any active MM compatible tech tree, which then forces MM to write a new cache for the tree, and then rename the MM compiled ModuleManager.TechTree cache file to .cfg and it will load into TTE.  I was able to load CTT into TTE, but I've not tested with your yet, but I figured it would be just as easy.  TTE though just can't seem to save part edits as stock format, so for now its only good at Node placement.

Edited February 12, 2016 by inigma

[Probus]

Just now, inigma said:

I should also share a little trick that works with the 0.3 version of Tech Tree Editor: you can load up KSP with any active MM compatible tech tree, which then forces MM to write a new cache for the tree, and then rename the MM compiled ModuleManager.TechTree cache file to .cfg and it will load into TTE.  I was able to load CTT into TTE, but I've not tested with your yet, but I figured it would be just as easy.  TTE though just can't seem to save part edits as stock format, so for now its only good at Node placement.

Where did you get 0.3 of the Tech Tree Editor?

[inigma]

1 minute ago, Probus said:

Where did you get 0.3 of the Tech Tree Editor?

rem0230

• Curious George
•  
• 
• Members
•  1
• 1 post

 

Posted 10 Nov 2015 · Report post

Hi, i update for KSP 1.0.4... https://github.com/rem02/ksp-techtree-edit/releases

You can create a techtree and save in stock format or yongeTech format.

if i can, i update or fix bug

(I don't speak english, sorry)

[Speedster159]

Wouldn't it be easier to modify the Community Tech Tree like what SETI is doing?

[Yemo]

57 minutes ago, Speedster159 said:

Wouldn't it be easier to modify the Community Tech Tree like what SETI is doing?

Funnily I m in the process of reworking the SETIctt and implement it in a manner similar to ETT, using the tech tree editor (though just for the tree, not for part assignment to nodes.

[Speedster159]

13 hours ago, Yemo said:

Funnily I m in the process of reworking the SETIctt and implement it in a manner similar to ETT, using the tech tree editor (though just for the tree, not for part assignment to nodes.

Now I can't decide which tree to use..

[Yemo]

2 hours ago, Speedster159 said:

Now I can't decide which tree to use..

Just to clarify, just the way of implementing it (content of config file) will look like ETT does at the moment, not the displayed tree in game. I ll write more about the changes in the SETI thread.

[Speedster159]

How does the abandoned airfield fit with this Tech Tree? Theres the command module and engine over there so that means the Kerbals started with Manned rockets?

[FreeThinker]

I'm using latest version: For Advanced Electro Magnetic Systems, it requires Experimental Gridded Thrusters and Specialized Plasma Generation, but neither is visible, making it impossible to research these techs:

 

A few observations about KSPI-CTT tech, I see you mixed the order of both tech node and their parts This results to some weird order, like the  cycle Gas being available before  the Close Cycle  Gas Core Reactor. This should be the other way around. I would also advice to make optional dependencies  between the Nuclear Propulsion Technologies (Fusion Rockets, High Efficient NUclear Propulsion , Nuclear Propulsion) and Advanced  Fusion should require Fusion Rockets and Fusion Power (not the other way around).

Edited February 15, 2016 by FreeThinker

[inigma]

@Probus I finally got some time to test this:

Here are my final aviation recommendations for ETT:

Recommendation Theory: Small rectangular and square wings and square/rectangular elevators should be available before larger rectangular and square wings. Also square and rectangular wings and elevators should come all before swept wings and swept/angled elevators from smallest to largest. Also small structural wing parts and hardpoints should available before larger structurals and more advanced hardpoints.

Delta Deluxe Winglet to Stability

Wing Connector Type D from Jet Aircraft to Aviation
Structural Wing Type D from Hypersonic Flight to Aviation

Elevon 1 from Jet Aircraft to Subsonic Flight
Wing Connector Type A from High Altitude Flight to Subsonic Flight
Wing Connector Type B from High Altitude Flight to Subsonic Flight
Wing Connector Type C from Jet Aircraft to Subsonic Flight

Elevon 2 from Hight Altitude Flight to Aerospace Tech
Elevon 3 from Advanced Aerodynamics to Aerospace Tech
Elevon 5 from Advanced Aerodynamics to Aerospace Tech
Mk 1 Cockpit from Hypersonic Flight to Aerospace Tech
Structural Wing Type A from Hypersonic Flight to Aerospace Tech
Structural Wing Type B from Hypersonic Flight to Aerospace Tech
Structural Wing Type C from Aviation to Aerospace Tech
Small Delta Wing from Advanced Aerodynamics to Aerospace Tech

Delta Wing from Hypersonic Flight to  Jet Aircraft
Wing Strake from Hypersonic Flight to Jet Aircraft
Swept Wing Type A from Hypersonic Flight to Jet Aircraft
Swept Wing Type B from Hypersonic Flight to Jet Aircraft

Swept Wings from Hypersonic Flight to High Altitude Flight

Let me know what you think of the above changes! I love the dev version. It's starting to feeling more balanced now, and these above changes would easily cement the deal if you like it. 

[Probus]

5 hours ago, Speedster159 said:

Wouldn't it be easier to modify the Community Tech Tree like what SETI is doing?

Yes :).  But this beast was started a long, long time ago.  It is way past that now.

Just now, Speedster159 said:

How does the abandoned airfield fit with this Tech Tree? Theres the command module and engine over there so that means the Kerbals started with Manned rockets?

Maybe.  Maybe.  But it is an airfield so that kinda makes it a bit ambiguous.