Is there a practical purpose to surface outposts?

[Gnawer]

I've been experimenting with surface outposts for a while, but didn't have a lot of success. I get doing them as a challenge or contract, but do they really work for anything else?

My thinking was, an outpost would be natural for resource mining. Ok let's say we have a processing plant, ore tanks, and fuel tanks. We also need a separate excavator vessel with a drill. Our ultimate goal is to get the fuel to orbit, so ships can refuel there. So we also need a shuttle to transfer fuel to the orbit. That's a lot of moving parts there.

Another scenario: our entire processing plant is on the orbit. In this case excavator is also the shuttle, the difference is it shuttles ore instead of fuel. Docking in orbit is way less difficult than on surface, so this structure is much less of a pain in the ass. Now, my first thought was lifting crude ore is ridiculous, but turns out KSP ore is like super refined and is basically the same mass as fuel.

Plus, in reality I would use an assortment of ground vehicles to maintain the surface outpost. There would be construction equipment to move modules around, ore trucks, actual ground excavators, etc. I would love to build all that, and it is almost possible in the game, but not quite. Basically the main focus is on rockets, and every piece is really designed for a rocket. Rovers are fun to play with, but actually driving them anywhere? It's just not that kind of a scale. As for loaders and such, there's a key piece missing: some kind of controllable lifting arm or platform that would allow to operate large weights with reasonable precision (entirely not a rocket concept).

So, am I missing something, did anyone actually had a success with surface outposts? Or are they more of a challenge than an actual functional piece?

[Foxster]

They are still mostly more fun/challenge than being hugely functional.

They are now useful though for semi-permanent science bases as you can generate science over time with the MPL.

Making fuel is a bit more marginal. Simplest is to pick one of the many wide flat spots on Minmus and drop an all-in-one rover with ore mining and processing there, making sure to put a claw on front of it. Have a fairly basic drop-ship that is mostly tank land near the rover, which trundles over and claws the lander, refuels it, it then returns to orbit.

[mikegarrison]

Does there have to be a practical purpose?

[Foxster]

Does there have to be a practical purpose?

Of course the answer is no. But if you are mid-career I suppose it might be not be possible to blow funds unnecessarily.

[Gnawer]

Actually, I searched and found out that drills don't deplete ore on planets/satellites. Wow. So, no separate excavator required. Still, in the interest of not docking on surface, excavator shuttle seems more practical. Wouldn't be the case if drill or the ore were heavier (which they should be IMO).

> Does there have to be a practical purpose?

Not necessarily, but it's more fun when it exists.

[Snark]

Mods can also make a difference. MKS/OKS turns base-building into an epic saga, and when paired with TAC-LS gives you a reason to do it.

[SAI Peregrinus]

If you want outposts to be more practical, the following modset will give you both reasons to build them and the tools to make them how you want:

KIS, KAS, MKS/OKS, Infernal Robotics, USI Life support, Karbonite, Karbonite+, ScanSat, RemoteTech, Extraplanetary Launchpads.

KIS & KAS give you winches, Infernal Robotics helps making cranes. MKS/OKS + USI Life Support gives quite a lot of cool tools for building bases. Karbonite and K+ give a super rare resource that powers some highly efficient engines. But they require long-term mining bases... ScanSat and RemoteTech give you resource scanning and an extra incentive for a manned base, respectively. I also like the other USI mods, especially FTT. Extraplanetary launchpads lets you build and launch rockets from your various bases. So build a base on Minmus and launch from there. Or one on Gilly for Eve trips. Etc.

In stock, mostly just an ISRU refining base on Minmus. They're also a common feature on Eve, though how many permanent Eve bases were designed as such is less obvious. Another option is to send drone refineries to your intended destinations ahead of time. Then you land next to them with a lander that has low/no fuel, and fuel up for the return trip at the destination. That means less fuel taken on the initial trip, which means much lower delta-V required for the manned launcher, which saves costs quite nicely for many destinations.

Edited June 11, 2015 by SAI Peregrinus

[Gnawer]

Makes sense, thanks SAI Peregrinus. I'll check out those mods then.

[Sharpy]

Another scenario: our entire processing plant is on the orbit. In this case excavator is also the shuttle, the difference is it shuttles ore instead of fuel. Docking in orbit is way less difficult than on surface, so this structure is much less of a pain in the ass. Now, my first thought was lifting crude ore is ridiculous, but turns out KSP ore is like super refined and is basically the same mass as fuel.

. Due to the mass of the ISRU Converter and the fact that the processed fuel is less massive than the ore used to generate it, it is often advisable to keep the converter permanently on the surface of the body it is mining.

First, you're not mining while shuttling, then you're shuttling more than you must.

My approach was:

An excavator+processor+relatively minor "buffer" tanks (both ore and fuel) on the ground, in one unit.

A fleet of "fuel trucks", each truck while tethered to the excavator, serves as the main fuel tank. The excavator tanks serve only when waiting for another truck to arrive which is a relatively short period.

Orbital depot where the trucks store the fuel and where crafts arrive to refuel.

[FancyMouse]

nobody mentions research lab?

[KerbMav]

.

Who is this Wiki whom you are quoting and who is spreading false truth?

Ore and fuel weigh the same before and after the ISRUfication.

[Sharpy]

The ISRU doesn't need to move after finding the optimal spot. A research lab either needs some rovers/fliers to bring data in, or it must be fairly mobile itself.

[FITorion]

Mining and research...

I just got the resource scanning parts in my career... so haven't done any mining. At this point a outpost near several "biomes" with a research lab to get full science without having to bring anything home has value.

Then for mining... do areas get depleted? If they don't then you don't need a separate driller.

I hear that the ore takes up less space... though has the same mass as the resultant fuel it's refined to...

Are there multiple refiner sizes? If there are then... I'd make a miner that drills and refines enough for itself and brings the unrefined up to orbit for the big refinery.

It wouldn't be a base...

If a base were to have anything mining related it would be minimal and just for refueling crew transports and or any hoppers to go to the near by "biomes." ... or I guess the fuel cells for electricity through the long nights you can get in places...

Basically the base's mining activities would be for its own needs rather than being much of a fuel depot... Fuel Depots are much more useful in orbit.

[Acet]

I just have a full blown miner base in Minmus, including drills, conversion, fuel and monoprop storage. It's serviced by a fuel lifter which distributes the fuel everywhere in the system.

I've included a Lab since it can also be used for research and to facilitate getting all research together from multiple biomes. Pre 1.0 a lab was actually required to reset Mystery Goo containers and the Science Jr Materials Bay in your science gathering lander, but now a scientist can do it directly in situ.

Even in career mode it's not that expensive to get a base like that up there.

[luizopiloto]

I use surface bases more for navigation... some have a small mining rig to refuel small planes...

[AbacusWizard]

I currently have a Mobile Ore Combine on Minmus ("combine" in that it is both a drilling rig and a refinery; "mobile" because it's on big wheels). It includes four resource converters, eight drills, and two engineers (in an engineering bay that can detach and fly or roll around on its own).

To get the proceeds into orbit, I have a colossal surface-to-space tanker that lands on landing gear, rolls up to the Combine, clamps in to a docking port, and waits while the Combine pumps newly refined fuel directly into it. When it's full, the tanker detaches, turns eastward, opens up its throttle, and launches like a jet. By the end of the procedure I have over 200 tons of fuel in orbit and can repeat whenever necessary at zero cost.

[troyfawkes]

I think this is something that might come through all of these great contract mods. Here's a concept for you:

The end game is to colonize 5 bodies other than Kerbin with at least 20 Kerbals each. Use a life support mod and a mod that lets you build ships outside of Kerbin. After 5 years, you can't use Kerbin anymore. Some jerk crashed an asteroid into it.

Figure out some other crazy goal and continue

Alternately, immediately build a mining base on one of Kerbin's moons and have a shipyard in orbit. How quickly can you stop using KSC to launch vessels? Then just continue the game as normal

[KerikBalm]

At the moment... my minmus surface base is just a collection of 3 things:

1x lander with science equipment

1x lab+ hitchhiker (the Hab)

1x ISRU fuel tanker (all in 1: drills, engine, tanks, convertor)

2 out of 3 move regularly.

The only purpose I've found for the stationary hab is to refuel RCS, and I just move my kerbals back and forth via RCS.

Sure.... I don't need the hab... but it makes the margin for rendevous much bigger, and therefore easier.

But... it seems cheaty (well, it did before I put down an ISRU thing there)