Devnote Tuesday: A big announcement

[mattinoz]

Curious Minds would like to know how is multi-player going and will it work across platforms?

[Sidereus]

Woah guys. I don't care for ps4, but chill out, for jeb's sake.

you are acting like they discontinued the game. If somebody wants to play a much more limited game on a much more limited computer, it's their problem.

I do agree that some people are over-reacting to this, but...Squad does seem to have some trouble communicating effectively. Like others, I wasn't particularly happy with this lackluster Devnote, especially given that it lacks a lot of information (like, <i>any</i>) that would have helped people understand exactly what this meant for the game. HarvesteR's article (which I consider to be the real Devnote) helped a lot, but all of that information, along with the information his reply to regex about the UI, really should have been in the first post of this thread.

It's true that you can't please everybody all of the time, and that you're always going to have haters, but -- perhaps from inexperience, or perhaps their own enthusiasm prevented them from thinking about how others would react to the announcement -- Squad is feeding that negative reaction with their communication style.

- - - Updated - - -

Curious Minds would like to know how is multi-player going and will it work across platforms?

If it's like most (all?) cross-platform games, multi-player will be segregated by platform. So PS4 players won't be able to play with PC players. Given that a completely different company will be handling the PS4 port, that's almost a certainty.

[kreutzkevic]

Later on, the wizards wondered if the new universe might have been

different if the Dean had waggled his fingers in a different way. Perhaps, within

it, matter might have naturally formed itself into, say, garden furniture, or

one giant nine-dimensional flower a trillion miles across. but Archchancellor

Ridcully pointed out that this was not very useful thinking, because of the

ancient principle of WYGIWYGAINGW*.

*"What you Get Is What You're Given And It's No Good Whining."

​- Sir Terry Pratchett, The Science Of Discworld -

[Gwtheyrn]

My lord, I don't think I've ever seen such a collection of absolutely insufferable whining. That I assume most of those on these forums to be grown adults makes the experience of reading it all even worse. Grow the hell up, people.

Congrats, Squad, on getting such a deal done. I hope it works out and you get yourself a nice new revenue stream out of this. If even just a few people who play it on the new platform go on to learn about the science and physics of rocketry, then well-done, I say. Ignore the PC elitist schmucks and carry on.

- - - Updated - - -

Did I say anything about rocket flipping?

No.

I talked about re-entering with a basic pod and a heatshield. Like you're supposed to do. Like every* player does early in the game.

Put the blame on the experimentals team or on the devs, I don't care which, either way is a rushed release.

Be nice if 1.0.3 was rushed a bit and fixed that memory leak. Redo the aero and heat models later, fix the crash causing bug now.

I use heat shields all the time. I have no idea what this bug you're talking about is. I've never experienced it.

[Dizzle]

Every announcement:

1. Max tells us to expect awesome news.

2. *drumroll*

3. "We just made serious bank on an unrelated project!"

4. *crickets*

5. "Also development is cancelled!"

6. Outrage ensues.

7. 3 weeks later someone finds the bathroom stall graffiti in which Max clarifies it was only a short vacation.

[basic.syntax]

I use heat shields all the time. I have no idea what this bug you're talking about is. I've never experienced it.

Bobnova was referring to a part heating balance problem in v1.0, that was patched within a week. But for that week, re-entry was especially deadly. He pinned the problem on testing, I pointed out the problem may have been known and reported by the test teams. In the v1.0.1 patch notes, the developers admitted to some responsibility for unspecified bugs that slipped through:

Some of these we knew about for a while, but couldn't fix in time for the release (as we approach publishing time, the risk of code-breaking and delaying the entire release outweighs any benefits in the potential fix), others we found out about during the weekend livestreams, and some others we found from your own feedback.

I think Squad addressed the major bugs with the 1.0 release very quickly, and the explanation given was typical of just about any other company's software development project, that I've ever read. A new memory leak bug was a side-effect of the patch, but they haven't wanted to release a fix just for that, preferring to release one big package of fixes that have been tested all together. It's a small comedy of errors and good testing reasons, that the v1.0.3 patch has taken longer than originally planned / expected.

[Superfluous J]

I use heat shields all the time. I have no idea what this bug you're talking about is. I've never experienced it.

See if you can get your hands on 1.0. Not 1.0.2, or 1.0.1, but 1.0.

One of the things they fixed in 1.0.1 was this problem. I'd elaborate but you'd probably say I was insufferably whining.

[Shtirliz72]

Congrats Squad, congrats...

But... Why the hell I read this announcement as devnote and where is actual devnote? There only one single picture and not a single word about actual devnote. What about 1.0.3 testing? What about Unity5 progressions? ...?!

To put is simple: almost anyone from KSP fans here wants to read devnote and not announcement. I don't know why and who put announcement in devnote section, but it was not smart decision. Don't make this mistake again. If you want to announcement something - make it separate news.

[monstah]

Every announcement:

1. Max tells us to expect awesome news.

2. *drumroll*

3. "We just made serious bank on an unrelated project!"

4. *crickets*

5. "Also development is cancelled!"

6. Outrage ensues.

7. 3 weeks later someone finds the bathroom stall graffiti in which Max clarifies it was only a short vacation.

You forgot the part where they announce *something* will blow our minds but they can't talk about it, and when it comes out it's just smoke and mirr - HEY! Maybe Roverdude is working on reflections like the texture replacer mod? [/sarcasm]

[Mr Shifty]

I challenge you to find a single story of a successful post release PC to Console port. Even Minecraft on Xbox is always rated lower than the PC version.

It's the height of absurdity to call the Xbox release of Minecraft anything but successful; it's sold something like 12 million copies. And it's sold more on consoles than it has on PC. There've been plenty of games, especially indie ones, that started on the PC and then did a successful console port. Examples: Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, Diablo III, Hotline Miami, Terraria, The Swapper, Don't Starve, Thomas Was Alone, Trine, The Witcher 2, Call of Duty 2, etc etc

Edited June 18, 2015 by Mr Shifty

[luizopiloto]

I still have a bad feeling about all this...

[Guest]

I've translated the Maxmaps' FAQ in French : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/125682-Devnote-Tuesday-%2817-06-15%29-FAQ-KSP-PS4-Traduction?p=2023281#post2023281

And I did so for all the Germans! http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/125832-Devnote-%C3%9Cbersetzung-KSP-kommt-f%C3%BCr-die-PS4!?p=2026347#post2026347

[Frybert]

Maybe this is just REALLY early Aprils Fools?

[Maars]

For a couple of Mexicans (oh and Portuguese, and some Brits), they don't too too badly.

...???

dude, with all due respect, that's like saying "gees, those white guys can actually jump high!" or "not bad for a couple of black dudes"

[fairytalefox]

It's the height of absurdity to call the Xbox release of Minecraft anything but successful; it's sold something like 12 million copies.

...Except it isn't Minecraft. It's a game with the same name and kinda similar look and gameplay, made by another studio from scratch. This is the very reason why

Minecraft on Xbox is always rated lower than the PC version.

Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, Diablo III, Hotline Miami, Terraria, The Swapper, Don't Starve, Thomas Was Alone, Trine, The Witcher 2, Call of Duty 2

Of all these games, I'm only familiar with the first one. It is (and was from the very beginning) almost unplayable without a gamepad. It is not how PC-exclusive games are usually designed.

[weeble]

After reading the first 30 pages and all the posts on this page, I'd like to put my $.02 in.

I see people comparing other ports that were a pretty big success. Now I understand that creating a good port is possible, if the team working on it is talented. And that's the part that worries me and I'm sure a bunch of others.

I read several places that the DEVS are really happy so far with FTE and what they've done. But when you look over what they've made, you can tell that they either A) Don't really care about quality or B)Aren't capable of making anything better. I mean those games not only looked pretty bad but they were very basic. Nothing really innovative or requiring much ability to create.

So it's surprising to say the least that SQUAD chose them to port the game. It's just weird that the DEVS are hyping them so much. I understand it's basic PR 101 to do it but I have yet to see anything from FTE that makes me confident in their ability. The only thing I have to go off of is what the DEVS here say about them.

Logic tells me that a game developer with that much talent would be creating games that are pretty good and quite well known. This company doesn't have much of a reputation for creating anything good. Zero experience on a system outside of making 1 PS2 game. Screenshots of their games show that they are an extremely low budget developer.

With such a big announcement and so much money on the line, choosing FTE was a pretty huge gamble. While I hope it pays off, their showcase makes one wonder if they're all that capable. It seems pretty obvious that they were the cheapest company willing to do the work, I hope they put a lot of effort into this port. It could easily affect the future of KSP and SQUAD

[Guest]

I read the Original Post, I grunted to myself and said "Huh." Then I said "Wow." Then I thought to myself, "Why is this a Dev Note?"

Then I sat back to read the comments.

I was not disappointed.

My word SQUAD, what have you done? You've sold your soul for 10 cents on the dollar. I hope the Martinis were delicious.

For each dollar this game will make on the PS4:

SONY's going to take 50 cents because it's their console.

Flying Tiger is going to take 25 cents because they're developing the port.

And SONY is going to take another 15 cents as a distribution fee.

Of the 10 cents you make, you'll probably end up spending 5 cents fixing Flying Tiger's mistakes.

I may be overstating this issue, but probably not by much. There are a lot of people bringing up Minecraft as an example, but Minecraft wasn't ported to consoles until after Notch sold the game to another developer.

IMO, Squad should have completely finished the game, finished selling the game on PC, then sell the entire IP to another developer for a huge chunk of cash.

Leave it up to the new IP owner to figure out how to port the game to consoles after PC development was completed.

Well that's my $.02 anyway, free of charge.

Regards,

Chris Maillet

[Hobbes Novakoff]

...Except it isn't Minecraft. It's a game with the same name and kinda similar look and gameplay, made by another studio from scratch. This is the very reason why

Yes, and this is also what KSP on the PS4 is going to be, but even more so, as they use the exact same code.

[Mr Shifty]

...Except it isn't Minecraft. It's a game with the same name and kinda similar look and gameplay, made by another studio from scratch. This is the very reason why Minecraft on Xbox is always rated lower than the PC version.

Last post on this, I promise:

4J were contracted to do this work by Mojang, and have continued the contract now that Microsoft are the overlords. They didn't make the port 'from scratch.' They converted the existing Java codebase for Minecraft to C++/C# and made some changes to accommodate the capabilities of consoles. And while it's true that the console versions have a lower Metacritic rating than the PC version does (with reason), they're still highly rated, and it's also true that the console versions (and especially the pocket version) have outsold the PC version. The console versions are functionally identical to the PC version except for the crafting interface, the size of the maps, and a few other minor changes. It's not 'kinda similar', it is functionally identical. (I've bought Minecraft 4 times, for PC, mobile, PS3 and PS4.) It's a successful port by any measure.

Of all these games, I'm only familiar with the first one. It is (and was from the very beginning) almost unplayable without a gamepad. It is not how PC-exclusive games are usually designed.

Your initial post was: "I challenge you to find a single story of a successful post release PC to Console port." I have provided many. Your unfamiliarity with the games does not make my point less valid, nor yours more. (And really? Diablo III? Call of Duty 2? You haven't heard of those?) Many PC games are designed with controllers in mind (an XBox controller is a pretty standard gaming PC accessory), and many PC games designed with KVM in mind make the switch to controllers just fine.

[sal_vager]

Yes, and this is also what KSP on the PS4 is going to be, but even more so, as they use the exact same code.

Indeed it will, with modifications made to the console UI, remember this is a console port of a PC game, not the other way around

Please reassure the skeptical that we're not going to get a UI intended for console play on the PC. I hope to see a KSP that realizes the potential of the PC platform and not something pared down and reduced in information.

No, not by any means. Our UI overhaul will indeed support development of a console-friendly UI, but that will be for the console version only. The PC UI will work just the same as it does now, maybe even get a few improvements for itself in the process.

Remember, KSP is a PC game being ported to run on a console. The port is branching off the main PC development code, not the other way around. We did need to work together for the Unity5 part though, because that affects everyone.

Cheers

[Hobbes Novakoff]

I may be overstating this issue, but probably not by much. There are a lot of people bringing up Minecraft as an example, but Minecraft wasn't ported to consoles until after Notch sold the game to another developer.

IMO, Squad should have completely finished the game, finished selling the game on PC, then sell the entire IP to another developer for a huge chunk of cash.

Leave it up to the new IP owner to figure out how to port the game to consoles after PC development was completed.

PC development is never going to be "complete." The only time it's going to be "complete" is when SQUAD stops working on it, which is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Anyway, 10 cents, multiplied across a few hundred thousand sales at $40 each (that's being pessimistic, the game on PC has sold, according to some estimates, a few million), is still a hefty $1.2 million or so.

[Guest]

PC development is never going to be "complete." The only time it's going to be "complete" is when SQUAD stops working on it, which is not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

You're going with the George Lucas argument "A movie is never completed, it's only abandoned." That didn't work out so well for Star Wars fans.

Well let me tell you something, when there are no more bugs to squash, and every feature is finished and working, the game is complete.

Regardless of how much tweaking the fans want, eventually SQUAD will sit back and say "It's done folks, we're finished."

According to your logic, 3D Realms would have simply continued to develop Wolfenstein 3D, instead of making Duke Nukem 3D.

Wolfenstein was never finished, it was only abandoned, right?

Anyway, 10 cents, multiplied across a few hundred thousand sales at $40 each (that's being pessimistic, the game on PC has sold, according to some estimates, a few million), is still a hefty $1.2 million or so.

If you're going to make a cash grab, you might as well grab all of it.

Considering SQUAD hasn't made any sort of announcement about sales figures, and there hasn't been a "Hooray We've Sold a Million Copies" post on the forum or elsewhere, I think it's safe to assume KSP has sold under a million units.

Currently there are 145,716 forum members, and 113,219 KSP reddit forum members. As a hypothetical exercise, add those numbers together, and figure the ratio of forum members to actual players is probably 5to1: You get a potential sales figure of 1,294,675. That is probably a high estimate, given the fact there have been no sales figures released, and selling a million copies of a game is usually a milestone worth reporting.

A game like KSP coming out on consoles where the average age of game players is about 12, is a risky move for a game that takes knowledge of math and science to play well. Not to mention, how many 12-year-olds are going to sit through yet another rocket launch, or have the patience to actually learn something about rocket design? My 12 year old brother loves playing KSP, but if it doesn't explode in a giant fireball, he's just not interested in it. Personally I thought the development of an EDU version of KSP, so kids taking physics class in school can learn a bit about rockets, was a great idea. I just don't see an audience in a console release, maybe if it was free-to-play like World of Tanks, but it won't be.

Anyway, I'll stop blathering and get on about my day.

Regards,

Chris Maillet

[Mr Shifty]

A game like KSP coming out on consoles where the average age of game players is about 12

Average age of a video game purchaser in the U.S. is 37. (Source) It's hard to find useful console specific numbers. (Reddit has done a large poll, but it probably more accurately reflects the demographics of reddit users than PS4 users.) If I had to guess, though, I'd guess that PS4 users skew older than average. (This was true for the PS3 7 years ago.) You could maybe convince me that the typical PS4 user is mid 20's, but definitely not a teenager.

[kreutzkevic]

PC development is never going to be "complete." The only time it's going to be "complete" is when SQUAD stops working on it, which is not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

That reminds me of a brilliant XKCD comic:

Anyway, I for one look forward to the future implications of Squad's decision. I think businesses should make money in order to stay businesses (shocking!). We'll get to see where this leads when we get there. At the end of the day, it IS Squad's product and they can do whatever they please with it. Some of us may not like it, but there's no pleasing everyone.

I vote for patience and not panicking at the drop of a hat.

It's not like they announced they would stop development and subsequently suggested everyone wshould fry their hard drive in order to erase every trace of KSP.

- - - Updated - - -

And another thing:

Squad used to be a marketing company.

Dave Grohl used to be the drummer for Nirvana.

Albert Einstein used to be a patent clerk.

Catholics used to burn people at the stake.

Humanity used to eat its' dinner raw and sleep in trees.

Lizards used to be bigger.

Rocks used to drop from the sky more often.

Oxygen used to be absent from the Earths' atmosphere.

The sun used to be a ginormous dust cloud.

Things change. Be glad they do.

[mikeb30165]

I read the Original Post, I grunted to myself and said "Huh." Then I said "Wow." Then I thought to myself, "Why is this a Dev Note?"

Then I sat back to read the comments.

I was not disappointed.

My word SQUAD, what have you done? You've sold your soul for 10 cents on the dollar. I hope the Martinis were delicious.

For each dollar this game will make on the PS4:

SONY's going to take 50 cents because it's their console.

Flying Tiger is going to take 25 cents because they're developing the port.

And SONY is going to take another 15 cents as a distribution fee.

Of the 10 cents you make, you'll probably end up spending 5 cents fixing Flying Tiger's mistakes.

I may be overstating this issue, but probably not by much. There are a lot of people bringing up Minecraft as an example, but Minecraft wasn't ported to consoles until after Notch sold the game to another developer.

IMO, Squad should have completely finished the game, finished selling the game on PC, then sell the entire IP to another developer for a huge chunk of cash.

Leave it up to the new IP owner to figure out how to port the game to consoles after PC development was completed.

Well that's my $.02 anyway, free of charge.

Regards,

Chris Maillet

Good points well made,