MechJeb vs non MechJeb

[Kagame]

MechJeb, even though I can do most of the stuff it does, save interplanetary transfers and Minmussing.

[Randazzo]

...For me...

This is the only relevant thing in this entire thread.

P.S. - I'm not suggesting Mechjeb controls the coasting, I'm simply saying it's a more accurate analogy of the game.

[WeirdCulture]

Ohh this thread again... and again and again... when we merge all these threads together, will this summons a new kraken?

[Canopus]

Mechjeb does not control coasting. It controls adjustments, and that robs you of fun and learning. There's tons of things one could learn about orbital mechanics in an awesome way if one fiddles with maneuver nodes. Not to mention when it comes to landing. So much fun is taken away if you just "press key to adjust" or "press key to land there". For me, that's not playing KSP. That's witnessing the simulation doing its thing.

MechJeb 2 does use maneuver nodes though. If you tell it to circularize at periapsis for example, it creates a node and then executes it.

[Requia]

Mechjeb is totally cheating. If you need an autopilot there's kOS

[jkool702]

Mechjeb does not control coasting. It controls adjustments, and that robs you of fun and learning. There's tons of things one could learn about orbital mechanics in an awesome way if one fiddles with maneuver nodes. Not to mention when it comes to landing. So much fun is taken away if you just "press key to adjust" or "press key to land there". For me, that's not playing KSP. That's witnessing the simulation doing its thing.

As many people (including myself) have indicated - we learned how to do this without using mechjeb first, and only used mechjeb to do it after this part of the game was second nature. Once you can do this in your sleep its becomes tedious, not fun, to continue to do over and over again. At this point the part of the game where you "learn something new" is (for me) heavily based on designing ships that can do difficult tasks.

Take launching from Eve for example: the challenging part isnt actually piloting the take off, but rather designing a ship that CAN take off from Eve and getting that ship to Eve's surface is what is challenging and fun.

So, without telling anyone how they should play the game, id recommend that you should learn how to do stuff without mechjeb, and once you completely understand it and dont get enjoyment from adjusting an orbit or taking off or landing for the 1000th time let mechjeb automate it and switch your focus to other aspects of the game.

Edited July 9, 2015 by jkool702

[winged]

Mechjeb is very helpful when you're doing gravity assists. Stock game and manuever node doesnt provide you such level of accuracy. I can't imagine than someone can make Galileo style trajectory using only stock maneuver node. It would be pure masochism.

Also MechJeb is must have for RSS+RO. Especially when you're doing (like me) replicas of real life rockets so you need (almost) the same dimensions, burn times for every stage, same launch mass, payload to specific orbit, escape trajectories etc. So as you can see MJ is definitely usable tool for pro players.

Regarding autopilot: I'm using it to make cinematics. It's really hard to controling rocket without GUI and making scenes simultaneously, especially with FAR installed.

Landing? Yeah that's one thing I'm always doing without MJ.

If you let Mechjeb do all the things for you, you aren't really playing the game, are you? It's being played in front of your eyes. It's like playing a car racing game with an autopilot. Why would you bother even playing it? You might as well watch "let's play" on YouTube.

I don't see any comparision between M. Schumacher in F1 car during Nurburgring GP and little green guy in a spaceship waiting 60 days for Duna encounter.

[Demon_82]

I learnt most manuevers but launch and circularization by watching MechJeb do them. Now, i can perform them manually, but less efficiently than it does. I enjoy moredesigning the ships and payloads than doing my 500th launch by hand. It's my game and I play it like i want to. And I'm addicted to it's delta V readings anyways xD

[John FX]

Right on. I'm aware that this game doesn't prepare me for actual space flight. I'm referring more to the game balance, and the reward vs effort balance. I happen to enjoy KSP much more as a challenging game, than a mobile app. "Push button for space station" is not appealing to me.

And having to control all my craft by hand is not appealing to me. If you truly care that others have long term enjoyment of the game then you must accept that for some, myself being one, the most enjoyment comes from design and construction and if forced to fly by hand then enjoyment would wane and cease.

You are not everyone and whilst I am happy you get so much enjoyment from your playing style please remember that others enjoy the game for different reasons.

[Miravlix]

Stock KSP is just too unrealistic for me to enjoy.

KER, Trajectories, Kerbal Alarm Clock and a ton of other addons is required to make KSP even remotely feel like I'm pretending to be involved in a space program and not some messed up space sim.

Flying by the seat of your pants, is movie stuff, way unrealistic.

[BDelacroix]

As if a real space program would be all manual.

Bring on the gaming elitists.

This won't end well.

[Canopus]

It's much more rewarding to achieve a difficult task, like building and flying an SSTO, without assistance, trust me. You get more out of the game, and the devs don't feel the need to dumb it down to "press button for space station" to attract more casuals. Every time you post about how bored you are with 'repetitive' trips to Eeloo, without mentioning that the game just moved your ship there while you had coffee, that's another vote for more Stupid to be introduced, and less challenge.

Yeah thats not really how MechJeb works though. Still i agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to have an autopilot in the game, not because the game would become to easy but because using Mechjeb is little bit to technical i think. What should be in the game though is the ability for five star Kerbal pilots and the most advanced probe cores to complete maneuvers automatically. Edited July 9, 2015 by Canopus

[moogoob]

I use Mechjeb, and don't care if you don't. I like having an autopilot to automate things. Often, I pilot probes EXCLUSIVELY through Mechjeb as they're supposed to be automated. If MJ can't do it, neither can the probe.

But it's not all about autopilot. I also like Delta-V readouts. Landing estimates. Suicide burn countdowns. "Current Biome" readouts. Porkchop plots for interplanetary transfer. SmartASS attitude control. Mechjeb is a Swiss Army Knife of a mod and if you don't want a Swiss Army Knife, by all means don't use it but please don't lambast us fans for doing being fans of this amazing and useful tool.

[winged]

A game without challenge is just a crummy movie about nothing.

You can use MechJeb to make game more challenging.

Example? Gravity assists.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Red Iron Crown

[Madrias]

Count me also in the Mechjeb camp. I use it to eliminate the tedium of yet another launch from Kerbin with the same identical launching stack that carries the same payload into the same orbit. I use it to plot the most efficient course between point-A and point-B, because I can't call up the Kerbals in the tracking station and ask them, "Hey, could you help me get to Eve?" I let it fly probes entirely because probes are supposed to be autonomous, no human (or Kerbal) intervention, flying with mechanical precision.

I use the Current Biome readout when flying aircraft or driving rovers, so that I'm not constantly wasting my time trying to check if I'm in a new biome when gathering batches of science, rather than breaking my mouse checking the Crew Report until something finally says it's not Kerbin's Grasslands.

I even admit to using Docking Autopilot. Why would a society that can go interplanetary still be bashing ships together under full manual control? Why not make the highly-tuned piece of precision equipment, the probe core, do the hard stuff? Sure, I can dock ships together, and until I've done a few in Kerbin Orbit and a couple around the Mun, I don't use Docking Autopilot. After I've done it a few times, then the autopilot turns on. And believe me, it's far from a cheaty "press button and make space station" routine with that. You need to be so over-engineered in your monopropellant budget that it's barely funny. Why? Because Mechjeb, last time I used it, determines that the best way to not move is to spray monopropellant from all nozzles at once, depleting your supply of RCS fuel.

As for those who bash on Mechjeb being 'easy mode', well, yes, it does make things easier. Think of it this way, though: if we, as Humans, didn't have the equivalent of Mechjeb, we wouldn't have a space station in orbit nor a flag on the moon. Yes, some of it was flown manually, I'm sure.

Also consider this: NASA has a huge ground-support crew communicating to our astronauts during each phase of their mission. KSP players have themselves and their trusty keyboards, the dead silence over the radio, and the whirr of fans in their computer case.

Mechjeb is my Ground Control. Mechjeb is the silent voice over my radio, telling my probe which way to go, telling my Kerbals where to point the ship, guiding my Kerbonauts across the infinite darkness. Mechjeb is the Kerbal Pilot's intuition saying, "Maybe I should turn the engine on right now so that I don't crash and die horribly out here."

And I don't mind seeing people fly solo. I have nothing against them, even when they have something against me. I have respect for those who wish to fly every launch on manual, to dock every ship on their own. To do their own landings with their own probes, or to plot their own course.

There are even moments when I'm forced to fly manual because something happened and suddenly Mechjeb can't handle flying the ship, and it makes me respect the solo pilots even more. Making that decision whether to stage early, or try to make it, despite being down one engine and a fuel can. Whether to shut down the other side or to ride out the lean. Whether to jettison the remains of both the destroyed side and the companion engine across from it. Whether to abort the launch or continue anyway. Or whether I can make it, despite being 300 delta-V short of what I initially planned.

Mechjeb isn't just a "push button for orbit" tool. Sure, it can be used as such, but all the computers in the world won't make a poorly-designed rocket make orbit. I enjoy KSP for the engineering challenge it presents, like playing with a box of virtual LEGO's without stepping on the pieces four hours later. Sure, I enjoy flying some of my missions, but flying the same design to orbit just gets dull after a while. And I know Squad made the decision to not have random failures for a reason. So that your mistakes are the only reason you don't make orbit. But there are times I really wish something, anything, would happen on launch number 37, or launch number 5 of the MK14 Super Shuttle. Things that aren't planned ahead of time. Things not related to "oh, crap, I just opened my chute under full acceleration." or "I pulled up too hard and ripped the wings off."

The end result, though, is that I do use Mechjeb, and a good number of its features, because they add in my co-pilot, my Ground Control, my Navigator. It gives me probe cores that are more than just remote-controlled spacecraft with an infinite range. It gives me the remaining 50% of my space program, the parts that would be so much more difficult to add in game smoothly. And so it gives me an ability to go interplanetary with ease. After all, I still do many of my own landings, many of my own launches, and a good chunk of my own docking. But sometimes I let my co-pilot do it for me.

[Bev7787]

I use mechjeb. Not often for autopilots but for things like trajectories and delta v info. Its more convenient than downloading two separate mods.

[GoSlash27]

I never use any mods, including MechJeb. I don't consider it "cheating", but the game is definitely more challenging without it and I enjoy the challenge.

Best,

-Slashy

[TheSaint]

You could make the same arguments about any video game - it's not realistic / it's too simple / it's too complex / it doesn't smell right.

Stop comparing the gameplay balance to actual NASA operations.

As a video game , KSP is pretty well-balanced in difficulty without adding 'autopilot' features. It's much more rewarding to achieve a difficult task, like building and flying an SSTO, without assistance, trust me. You get more out of the game, and the devs don't feel the need to dumb it down to "press button for space station" to attract more casuals. That's the real issue here, and the only reason that anyone should care how you play.

Every time you post about how bored you are with 'repetitive' trips to Eeloo, without mentioning that the game just moved your ship there while you had coffee, that's another vote for more Stupid to be introduced, and less challenge. A game without challenge is just a movie about nothing.

But even if all your worst nightmares come true and Squad caves to massive community pressure and puts an autopilot into the game (which they've said over and over again for years they aren't going to do), it still doesn't affect you. All you have to do is not press the autopilot button.

The real issue is that you can't wrap your head around the idea that people who play KSP differently than you do can have just as much fun.

Edited July 10, 2015 by TheSaint

[Tourist]

I haven't used it yet, but not only do I think its not cheating, but it should eventually be added to stock.... but way way up the tech tree. It should not be available straight away (except in sandbox of course).

I think it would allay many players and Squads fears about it becoming too easy if you have to earn your way to Mechjeb. The best way I can think to do this is have it as a part near where the high science cost probe cores are, and needs a fully upgraded tracking station to for it to work. Also costs weight and doesn't work if not powered. My thought is that it should not be available until you have at least landed on both mun and minmus and one interplanetary transfer. After that you have passed your rocket launch and navigation tests.

In this way, Mechjeb is not a first level tool for avoiding learning the necessary skills, rather becomes, as it should be, a tool for experienced players move onto more complex endeavours without needing to worry about those mundane parts of the process they have done a million times before.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Tourist

[TheSaint]

I haven't used it yet, but not only do I think its not cheating, but it should eventually be added to stock.... but way way up the tech tree. It should not be available straight away (except in sandbox of course).

I think it would allay many players and Squads fears about it becoming too easy if you have to earn your way to Mechjeb. The best way I can think to do this is have it as a part near where the high science cost probe cores are, and needs a fully upgraded tracking station to for it to work. Also costs weight and doesn't work if not powered. My thought is that it should not be available until you have at least landed on both mun and minmus and one interplanetary transfer. After that you have passed your rocket launch and navigation tests.

In this way, Mechjeb is not a first level tool for avoiding learning the necessary skills, rather becomes, as it should be, a tool for experienced players move onto more complex endeavours without needing to worry about those mundane parts of the process they have done a million times before.

I actually disagree. I think that one of the great strengths of this game is the fact that people can use mods to add and remove things to customize the game to their liking. So while I find it annoying and frustrating when people run around calling other people "cheaters" for using an autopilot mod in a single-player game, I would find it equally annoying and frustrating if the developers took away those same people's ability to choose to play the game without an autopilot. What can I say, except, "Hooray for diversity!"

[Tourist]

I actually disagree. I think that one of the great strengths of this game is the fact that people can use mods to add and remove things to customize the game to their liking. So while I find it annoying and frustrating when people run around calling other people "cheaters" for using an autopilot mod in a single-player game, I would find it equally annoying and frustrating if the developers took away those same people's ability to choose to play the game without an autopilot. What can I say, except, "Hooray for diversity!"

I agree with everything you said, except the last bit.

If it exists, but just as a part you can unlock and attach (I imagine it being like the batteries), players can choose not you use it. I can't see how that affects the "hands-on" pilot's enjoyment. I'm sure we all have parts we don't use. I for one have never used the Ion engine. Nor have I ever used the Round 8... and I know how much people swear by those. I've just never found a use for it.

But I suppose, as you say, mech-jebbers can always mod it in. Its just I can see great potential for adding bonus depth career mode. For instance, Mech-jebs capabilities could be tied to certain experiments. Such as, it can't reach orbit automatically until you have done various barometer and accelerometer tests at various points of a manual ascent. If people want to use auto landing on celestial bodies, perhaps a probe with a beacon needs to be landed first to provide telemetry.

Totally with you on letting people play they way they want, and no name calling though. As Abraham Lincoln once said "Be excellent to each other... and.... PARTY ON, DUDES!"

[maceemiller]

Mechjeb. I only use it for delta v stats.

[irichey25]

I use Mechjeb for a decent amount of things. Generally, in my opinion, if you're having fun do what you please.

I usually use Smart ASS, Translation, and the Maneuver Node Planner for making perfect circle orbits.

[T.A.P.O.R.]

Accidentally skewed the poll by voting non mj

I use it for launches that require my attention to be elsewhere.

I've rarely managed to get it to land exactly where I want, so I let it get me in range, then try to land myself

[mhoram]

I had until now three Mech-Jeb phases:

1. I started playing KSP without MJ: Basic maneuvering within Kerbins SOI was easy enough to not use it. But landing on Mun/Minmus was hard.

2. I used MJ for DV&TWR-Stats and for convenience for recurring things like Hohmann Transfers, Launching & Landing and Rendezvous

3. Currently I don't use MJ. For setting up maneuvers I use PreciseNode; Pinpoint landings on the Mun I can do by hand; for DV&TWR-stats there is KER.

Since #2 was the longest phase, I am still a bit undecided how to vote.