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LitaAlto

Kerbal Foundries vs KerbinSide Air-Race: Antigrav race near KSC

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Take the Kerbal Foundries vs KerbinSide Air-Race Challenge!

Use the exceedingly slippery anti-gravitational repulsors from Kerbal Foundries to build a craft that can complete a lap through the KSC course in KerbinSide Air-Race!

CURRENT LEADER BOARD:

[TABLE=width: 302]

[TR]

[TD]JackDuggan[/TD]

[TD]stock aero[/TD]

[TD]2:44[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]greydragon70[/TD]

[TD]stock aero[/TD]

[TD]3:30[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]the_BT[/TD]

[TD]FAR[/TD]

[TD]3:40[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]AlphaAsh[/TD]

[TD]stock aero[/TD]

[TD]3:40[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Signo[/TD]

[TD]stock areo[/TD]

[TD]5:00[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]smjjames[/TD]

[TD]stock aero[/TD]

[TD]5:02[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Soda Popinski[/TD]

[TD]stock aero[/TD]

[TD]7:18[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]LitaAlto[/TD]

[TD]stock areo[/TD]

[TD]8:57[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

An honorable mention goes to Soda Popinski for his podracer entry! Since it uses surface-mounted repulsors it won't be included in the leader board. (Update: Soda Popinski clarified that he was using the standard repulsors, but clipped inward. That's allowed on this first challenge.) But given how dangerous podracers are in any universe, his ability to finish the race at all is very remarkable. The Force is strong with this one!

The "Challenge" wasn't trying to go fast, but more trying to not die.

CHALLENGE RULES (REVISION 1.2):

MODS:

  • Must use Kerbal Foundries antigrav repulsors.
    • Not the surface mounted repulsors!
    • And they must be powered at all times!

    [*]Must use KerbinSide Air-Race--first course near the KSC.

    [*]No overpowered or overly buffed engines.

    [*]Otherwise all mods (including MechJeb) are permitted.

FLIGHT RESTRAINTS:

  • No wings! That includes wing segments!
  • Control surfaces with lift up to 0.5 are permitted.
    • They can only be used for control and stability--not for gliding!

GENERAL QUALIFICATIONS:

  • Record your run & time from starting line to finish.
    • Use F3 at the start and finish to register the times. (Optional but highly recommended!)

    [*]All crew must survive the experience.

    [*]Fastest time wins!

MOD LINKS:

Kerbal Foundries

KerbinSide (Air-Race in the Downloads section)

Here's my first attempt at the challenge. Given this is a heavy craft that overheats, my time was not that good. Surely you can do better than just shy of nine minutes!

A special shout-out to Jatwaa for running The Fast and The Kerbalus challenges which got me interested in anti-grav racecraft.

Edited by LitaAlto
Updating entries.

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Going to try this, don't know if I can manage a video though...

I have FAR installed, is it allowed?

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Going to try this, don't know if I can manage a video though...

I have FAR installed, is it allowed?

Good question! While there are still differences between stock aero and FAR, I don't think the differences are so extreme these days that it matters much. So, sure!

Do make sure you indicate you're using FAR, though--if it emerges that there are significant enough differences, I might make a FAR category of winner separate from a stock aero category.

If the problem with video is expense, I think there are some free options like CamStudio that you could use.

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What about the stock jet engines? They are powerful enough to let a vessel fly even if they have only control surfaces and no wings. I believe it's also possible to make a jet-powered wingless "plane" with can be steered by (lots of) SAS alone.

That way I don't have to bother about colliding with hills and stuff which is the by far the most difficult part of this challenge.

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OOh, looks fun! :D

I do have Better Buoyancy, but that's only going to affect crashes into the water.

Can I use MJ's rover waypoint system? I won't use the AP obviously.

What's your policy on using ducted fans for propulsion? I have a possible idea with those, or maybe the karbonite propfans.

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@smjjames

No overpowered engines. Karbonite engines are definitely overpowered.

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@smjjames

No overpowered engines. Karbonite engines are definitely overpowered.

Right, right. There is a LF version of the same propfan, not sure if that one is considered OP or not.

The ducted fans that I'm talking about are from FTT.

Edit: Looking around a bit, the large ducted fan is definetly overpowered, at least for something like in the example above, would be too big anyway. If you were trying to use a laden ore hauler, MAYBE.

I'll let LitaAlto decide about the medium ducted fan (which actually seems ok) and the liquidfuel versions of the propfan, radial jet, and inline jet engines that are in FTT. There's also an MRS version of the basic jet engine, but that is definetly overpowered for it's size and in comparison to the stock one.

Edited by smjjames

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Multiple fails and a few gigs of messy video later... I'm going to try again :D This is insanely fun.

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Does anybody with more experience in this type of challenge have a more informed opinion on the medium ducted fan in Freight Transport Technologies and the liquidfuel versions of the propfan, radial jet, and inline jet engines from Karbonite? The inline LF powered turbojet is actually sort of on par with the stock basic jet engine.

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Eh, I can't the pads to work without colliding into the first positive slope I encounter.

Try the big ones.

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Eh, I can't the pads to work without colliding into the first positive slope I encounter.

Try the big ones.

And increase the height and strength to maximum.

@smjjames

All the engines of the Karbonite mod (that includes the LF variants too) are overpowered. They don't have a thrust curve that fits the new atmosphere physics. With them you can go supersonic easily at ground level. In fact they are made to be like that.

The stock turbo jet engine comes close to that but needs more fuel. Heck I did the challenge in less than 6 minutes just using two basic jet engines and had problems to stay close to the ground and not flying into the stratosphere. Those engines are just too strong.

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8 mins 3 secs, give or take half a second for the lack of precision using F3 crossing the start and finish.

Lots of ways I can improve this time I think.

Edited by AlphaAsh

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And increase the height and strength to maximum.

@smjjames

All the engines of the Karbonite mod (that includes the LF variants too) are overpowered. They don't have a thrust curve that fits the new atmosphere physics. With them you can go supersonic easily at ground level. In fact they are made to be like that.

The stock turbo jet engine comes close to that but needs more fuel. Heck I did the challenge in less than 6 minutes just using two basic jet engines and had problems to stay close to the ground and not flying into the stratosphere. Those engines are just too strong.

Okay. I wasn't sure about those anyway and wanted to know more before I use those.

The medium sucted fan might work, I'll see about that one. They're somewhat stronger than the stock basic, but their ISP is much lower.

Edit: Turns out the medium ducted fan is pretty much on par with LitaAltos entry.

Also, can I use MJ to assist with holding pitch and roll? It's the ONLY thing it's doing, all other maneuvering is by me.

This is just a practice run here, to see the course.

screenshot46_zpsuxjblwiz.png

Edited by smjjames

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So, to make it as clear as possible: This was done with FAR installed. It did not seem to make the challenge much easier, in fact, my first few crafts had a tendency to do this stunt, which is not very helpful :P

Because of this, I have build my craft without wings of any form, resulting in something that looks like a 1920 race car. Which is cool!

I use 2 stock turbojets that are tweakscaled to 0.625. They provide a combined thrust of about 40 kN when stationary and go up 80 kN at top speed (sea level).

If that is too much I could run again with thrust limiter.

The only other mod parts on my craft are the anti-grav motors and 2 auxiliary power units. Everything else is stock.

My time is 4 minutes 50 seconds (from 2:09 to 6:59):

Craft and pilot after race

I did use my engines to generate lift a couple of times, hope that is allowed :D

PS: Watching my own (very first ever) video, I just realized that I absolutely need a mod that makes water spray when you fly very close to water... Does something like this exist?

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Can I use MJ's rover waypoint system? I won't use the AP obviously.

You can.

While this is the first challenge I'm hosting, the spiritual parent of this is Jatwaa's The Fast and The Kerbalus challenges. (I believe Jatwaa will be submitting his entry later on....) During the second challenge--the race to KSC2--we had to use the rover waypoint system just because we had to fly halfway across the planet!

I'll let LitaAlto decide about the medium ducted fan (which actually seems ok) and the liquidfuel versions of the propfan, radial jet, and inline jet engines that are in FTT. There's also an MRS version of the basic jet engine, but that is definetly overpowered for it's size and in comparison to the stock one.

I haven't played around with those mods, but given that you've done some diligence, if there are no objections, I say go for it, and good luck! :cool:

- - - Updated - - -

What about the stock jet engines? They are powerful enough to let a vessel fly even if they have only control surfaces and no wings. I believe it's also possible to make a jet-powered wingless "plane" with can be steered by (lots of) SAS alone.

That way I don't have to bother about colliding with hills and stuff which is the by far the most difficult part of this challenge.

You'd still need to attach enough repulsors, and enough electrical sources, to keep the craft afloat on its own. The repulsors aren't horribly massive but they are power-hungry. But a good point, as I did not stipulate that the repulsors must be powered at all times. I should make sure to do so.

That said, you could still make a wingless craft that could conceivably fly well enough that you never use the repulsors during the first half of the course. But I strongly suggest you consider how much fun you will be missing.

Try it both ways. I'm pretty sure it'd get an honorable mention even if you don't do well speed-wise.

- - - Updated - - -

And increase the height and strength to maximum.

You really, really want to increase the height. No, seriously. *Aqua* speaks from wisdom. Don't go with the default, that's usually barely enough to get you off the ground, and sometimes, not even that.

I usually have action groups for extending and retracting the repulsors. If you watch my video, you'll see that I start with the retractors off and then extend them all the way.

- - - Updated - - -

8 mins 3 secs, give or take half a second for the lack of precision using F3 crossing the start and finish.

Lots of ways I can improve this time I think.

I think you might've fudged your math. 9:31 - 1:34 = 7:57. Give or take a half-second. :cool:

- - - Updated - - -

Also, can I use MJ to assist with holding pitch and roll? It's the ONLY thing it's doing, all other maneuvering is by me.

MechJeb is fine. There's only so much auto-piloting it can effectively do here, and I'm pretty positive you have to do some of the flying no matter what. (And besides, I want to see a kOS user prove me dead wrong and leave us all worshipful of their scripting skills.)

- - - Updated - - -

If that is too much I could run again with thrust limiter.

The only other mod parts on my craft are the anti-grav motors and 2 auxiliary power units. Everything else is stock.

My time is 4 minutes 50 seconds (from 2:09 to 6:59):

Craft and pilot after race

I did use my engines to generate lift a couple of times, hope that is allowed :D

PS: Watching my own (very first ever) video, I just realized that I absolutely need a mod that makes water spray when you fly very close to water... Does something like this exist?

TweakScale is permitted, so is generating lift with the engines. (You should see my failed entry for

!)

Very nice run, and congratulations!

As for the effect--you could drag a part behind you.... (And maybe lo-fi of Kerbal Foundries can think about a way to make this happen? That would be amazing! They're adding dust clouds as is....)

Edited by LitaAlto

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I think you might've fudged your math. 9:31 - 1:34 = 7:57. Give or take a half-second. :cool:

Oh, yes quite. I was using Plutonian Quasi-maths at the time. Or something. Yes.

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[...] And besides, I want to see a kOS user prove me dead wrong and leave us all worshipful of their scripting skills. [...]

Downloading nao...

In all seriousness though, I did consider getting it to control a bunch of side facing engines to keep the drifting in check and maybe downfacing ones to cushion landings after a jump. But then I didn't bother because that would probably take forever to figure out. And what kind of engine to use? Jets react to slow, rockets would use too much fuel.

Also, I discovered, when using FAR you are not likely going faster than mach 1. The surface mounted repulsors cause way to much trans-sonic drag to go faster. Even if you engines can push that hard, it will just rip the craft to pieces :D

Drag for my craft looks like this (red line):

uEVVldK.png

As you can see, drag more than triples between mach 0.8 and 1.0

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You can.

Actually, after doing a practice run, I've decided that I don't actually need it.

I haven't played around with those mods, but given that you've done some diligence, if there are no objections, I say go for it, and good luck! :cool:

Sure. I did some testing and it's top speed in a straight run is 240m/s or so (just beyond the point where the mach effects start), but moving around, it's speed is similar to yours. I've since attached a jet engine in back though.

MechJeb is fine. There's only so much auto-piloting it can effectively do here, and I'm pretty positive you have to do some of the flying no matter what. (And besides, I want to see a kOS user prove me dead wrong and leave us all worshipful of their scripting skills.)

Yeah, it's mainly to assist in stability while going over land, it still has trouble when I REALLY go airborne. I've also devised a way to make it highly maneuverable, possibly jet fighter level of maneuverability, while on the ground anyway, it flails while in the air.

Edit: Oof, that first stage keeps getting me, dang slope transition.

Edited by smjjames

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I did some more testing and have found two things:

1.

I copied my craft into a stock install to compare FAR against stock aero. FAR does make a significant difference, however, it does not make you universally faster. In stock my time is over 9 minutes! :o

With the engines on my design, I can go up to 280m/s (sea level) in FAR but only about half of that in stock. Normal sized turbojets (~5x stronger) on the other hand, get up to almost 500m/s top speed at sea level in stock. In FAR, engines of that size crash you into the sound barrier.

So In conclusion, FAR favors lighter designs with small engines which are easier to get through the land bit, but limit your top speed to 300 or so m/s*. Stock offers the possibility to go faster, but you need big engines and enough fuel to feed them. This will make the craft heavy. As the track is 60ish % over water without tight turns, I assume stock might be quicker than FAR, if you can get through the rough bit.

*unless you can use repulsors inside fairings, didn't test that...

2.

Cockpit view makes this challenge even better! Check it out yo:

- - - Updated - - -

I just tested repulsors under fairings in a design suitable for supersonic speeds. Works, is insanely fast in a straight line, breaks up due to aerodynamic stress a lot. As soon as you get airborne it tries to flip and if it does you are dead.

Love it XD

Edited by the_bT

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What's the maximum allowable time for being airborne? Because I can actually stay airborne for a slightly extended time with the current setup (I've gone through LOTS of design changes).

Also, where else can I post a video besides youtube? I don't really want to make a youtube account.

Edited by smjjames

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What's the maximum allowable time for being airborne? Because I can actually stay airborne for a slightly extended time with the current setup (I've gone through LOTS of design changes).

Also, where else can I post a video besides youtube? I don't really want to make a youtube account.

If you can stay airborne, that's fine. But without wings, it'll be tricky to stay that way for very long--and navigating the course will probably be tricky too.

As for video hosting sites, Vimeo and DailyMotion are two options you can look into.

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It's not that I can stay airborne, just that I can actually be airborne for quite a bit. I've been powering down the engines when I go airborne though so that it's more of a glide than a powered descent.

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