Kerbal Foundries vs KerbinSide Air-Race: Antigrav race near KSC

[AlphaAsh]

I should warn you the new track at Dundard's Edge is not repulsor friendly. I've tried

[Soda Popinski]

Congratulations on completing the challenge! I can imagine the three hulls would create extra drag, and with the cables you'd definitely have issues staying afloat and in one piece.

Unfortunately, the most recent ruleset makes explicit that you can't use the surface-mounted repulsors. Still, just for the innovative design, and the fact that you were able to complete the challenge despite the extra difficulty, I think you deserve an honorable mention at least.

Thanks for the kind words. Though to clarify, I replaced the surface mounted antigravs with the standard ones. I just rotated them to be in line with the nacelles. I don't think it makes a difference in stock aero. Not that it matters, with my mighty 7:18...

[JackDugan]

So I've updated the leader board to reflect Soda Popinski's entry, which doesn't qualify under current rules but is too cool not to give an honorable mention to.

I didn't set an original deadline for this challenge, but will probably close out the leader board on Wednesday if there are no new entries by then.

And I'm already giving thought to how to conduct the next race. The current version of KerbinSide Air-Race has three tracks, and I'm looking forward to racing each one!

Obviously there was a lot of confusion I failed to anticipate the first time around, so--lessons learned!

I'm putting the proposed rules for the next round in the spoiler box below. To be clear, they are not in effect for this race, but probably will be in the next.

Significant changes to the rules are given in red, below.

MODS:

• Must use Kerbal Foundries.
  
• Must use KerbinSide Air-Race.
  
• Mods (including MechJeb) are permitted.
  

FLIGHT RESTRAINTS:

• Repulsors:
  
  • No surface-mount repulsors are permitted.
    
  • Repulsors must be powered at all times.
    

  [*]Engines:

  • The only permitted engines are the stock engines--the Wheatley jet engine, the Whiplash turbojet engine, and the RAPIER hybrid engine.
    
  • You can only use one type of jet engine per craft.
    
  • RCS monoprop thrusters are permitted.
    
  • LOX rocket engines and SRBs are not permitted.
    

  [*]Aerodynamics:

  • No wings! That includes wing segments!
    
  • Control surfaces with lift up to 0.5 are permitted.
    
  • Limit two control surfaces + two A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.S. per craft.
    
  • No fairings may be used to reduce repulsor drag.
    

GENERAL QUALIFICATIONS:

• This race will be on the "Black Krags" course. This is a land-only course.
  
• There are two categories (and leader boards) for this race--the Wheatley category and the Whiplash/RAPIER category.
  
• You may enter as many times as you like, and compete in both leader board categories.
  
• Record your run & time from starting line to finish.
  
  • Use F3 at the start and finish to register the times. (Optional but highly recommended!)
    
  • The above rule may be replaced with KerbinSide Air-Race 1.3 as it has improved air racing. I'll check it out and amend the rules if version 1.3 gives a benefit here.
    

  [*]All crew must survive the experience.

  [*]Your top speed per category will be logged in the leader boards. Previous entries you have exceeded will not be included.

  [*]Fastest time wins!

Will the new race be a new challenge, have a separate leader board, or replace this challenge? Also, does the fairing rule mean we can't use fairings or can't put repulsors in fairings? Nevermind, I assume it will be a separate challenge due to the leader board closing.

Edited July 13, 2015 by JackDugan

[LitaAlto]

I should warn you the new track at Dundard's Edge is not repulsor friendly. I've tried

Don't worry, I don't make challenges I can't complete. Before I issue the challenge, I will have video proof of finishing the race.

(Which implies I may never issue the challenge, of course. But I'm game!)

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the kind words. Though to clarify, I replaced the surface mounted antigravs with the standard ones. I just rotated them to be in line with the nacelles. I don't think it makes a difference in stock aero. Not that it matters, with my mighty 7:18...

Good to know, thank you for clarifying. I'll make a correction later and put you on the board.

(And I should make sure the next challenge's rules state no clipping of the repulsors--I really do want them sticking out, both because of the increased drag, and also because they're more vulnerable that way.)

- - - Updated - - -

Will the new race be a new challenge, have a separate leader board, or replace this challenge? Also, does the fairing rule mean we can't use fairings or can't put repulsors in fairings? Nevermind, I assume it will be a separate challenge due to the leader board closing.

New challenge. Same family of challenges, but totally different, with totally separate leader boards, and different rules.

One of the entries this time around used fairings to shield the repulsors from air resistance--a clever tactic, and one I allowed because I hadn't even thought about the possibility, but not one I want to allow in the next challenge.

I really want the repulsors themselves to be part of the challenge, not just their repulsion force. They should stick out, induce drag, and risk damage, in addition to draining power and making travel slippery.

Oh, and because I'm evil--you reminded me I need to add clauses about the repulsion force needing to repulse the ground at least once in-between race markers, and the need to stay under the race markers. Thanks.

[greydragon70]

Jolly Roger Aerospace back.... again.....

So I started over with a new craft, then after testing I made 3 runs.

1st Run: Start :56 end 3:50 run 2:54

2nd Run: Start :50 end 3:45 run 2:55

3rd Run: Start :54 end 3:48 run 2:54

Top Speed: 1st run 525m/s, 2nd run 506m/s, 3rd run 512m/s

I started small and basic, as striped down as I could, and still have some control.

Parts:

1 whiplash engine

1 fuel tank (not full)

1 cockpit

4 SAS pods

4 intakes

4 RTG's

1 battery (1000 units)

2 airbrakes (tweakscaled down)

2 large hover pads

2 small cubic struts

8 struts

Here is the video:

[Signo]

[*]Control surfaces with lift up to 0.5 are permitted.

[*]Limit two control surfaces + two A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.S. per craft.

Would it be possible to "amend" this rule with a total lift limit of 1 but with a free amount of control surfaces (e.g. 4x0.25)?

[smjjames]

Congratulations on completing the challenge! I can imagine the three hulls would create extra drag, and with the cables you'd definitely have issues staying afloat and in one piece.

Unfortunately, the most recent ruleset makes explicit that you can't use the surface-mounted repulsors. Still, just for the innovative design, and the fact that you were able to complete the challenge despite the extra difficulty, I think you deserve an honorable mention at least.

I don't remember if mine had surface mounted repulsors, I think it did. I put them on the ends in an attempt to stabilize the ends, but my flying skills had more effect (and the side ones), so I don't think they actually helped all that much anyway.

Also, are you posting the next race as a new thread?

- - - Updated - - -

So I've updated the leader board to reflect Soda Popinski's entry, which doesn't qualify under current rules but is too cool not to give an honorable mention to.

I didn't set an original deadline for this challenge, but will probably close out the leader board on Wednesday if there are no new entries by then.

And I'm already giving thought to how to conduct the next race. The current version of KerbinSide Air-Race has three tracks, and I'm looking forward to racing each one!

Obviously there was a lot of confusion I failed to anticipate the first time around, so--lessons learned!

I'm putting the proposed rules for the next round in the spoiler box below. To be clear, they are not in effect for this race, but probably will be in the next.

(Originally I had flagged significant changes in red, but really, there's a lot of changes here.)

MODS:

• Must use Kerbal Foundries.
  
• Must use KerbinSide Air-Race.
  
• Mods (including MechJeb and FAR) are permitted.
  

FLIGHT RESTRAINTS:

• Repulsors:
  
  • No surface-mount repulsors are permitted.
    
  • Repulsors must be powered at all times.
    
    

  [*]Engines:

  • Only stock jet engines are permitted--the Wheatley jet engine, the Whiplash turbojet engine, and the RAPIER hybrid engine.
    
  • You can only use one type of jet engine per craft. Your craft will be classified based on the jet engine it uses.
    
  • Modding of stock jets is not permitted. This includes ModuleManager patches and direct .cfg changes.
    
  • RCS monoprop thrusters are permitted.
    
  • LOX rocket engines and SRBs are not permitted.
    

  [*]Aerodynamics:

  • No wings! That includes wing segments!
    
  • Control surfaces with lift up to 0.5 are permitted.
    
  • Limit two control surfaces + two A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.S. per craft.
    
  • No fairings may be used to reduce repulsor drag.
    

  [*]​General:

  • You must actively use your repulsors to repulse the ground at least once in-between race markers.
    
    
  • Using jet thrust to keep you clear of the ground for extended periods is prohibited. Please, thrill in the jump, and survive the jump if you can, but don't avoid the jump.
    
    
  • When passing between race markers, your craft's altitude must remain under the top of the taller of the two markers.
    

GENERAL QUALIFICATIONS:

• This race will be on the "Black Krags" course. This is a land-only course.
  
• There are two categories (and leader boards) for this race--the Wheatley category and the Whiplash/RAPIER category.
  
• You may enter as many times as you like, and compete in both leader board categories.
  
• Record your run & time from starting line to finish.
  
  • Use F3 at the start and finish to register the times. (Optional but highly recommended!)
    
  • The above rule may be replaced with KerbinSide Air-Race 1.3 as it has improved air racing. I'll check it out and amend the rules if version 1.3 gives a benefit here.
    

  [*]All crew must survive the experience.

  [*]Your top speed per category will be logged in the leader boards. Previous entries you have exceeded will not be included.

  [*]Fastest time wins!

Some thoughts here:

1. What about Throttle Controlled Aivonics? I don't think it'll actually help much due to it not being a VTOL challenge.

2. Any decisions on using stock only SAS or are mod SAS (like mine used) allowed?

3. Can stronger RCS from mods be used or can you only use those that are the same strength (or less) as stock RCS? While mine used the 5 way RCS (seriously, why isn't a 5-way RCS stock?) from MRS, it's the same strength as stock RCS.

4. "Using jet thrust to keep you clear of the ground for extended periods is prohibited. Please, thrill in the jump, and survive the jump if you can, but don't avoid the jump." How long would 'extended periods' be? The way I was doing it, using the jet (and those ducted fans) to control the jump while not actually avoiding it is probably ideal.

5. Can you clip through the markers? While I did clip the ramp of the marker base during my run, I was definetly trying to avoid it. Learned the hard way during practice runs that you REALLY do not want to hit that ramp.

6. Can we use the reactors from NFE as alternate power sources or use more advanced RTGs like the scout power pak from MKS (which is rather heavy though) or the PB-AS-NUK which is also from NFE? Though the wheesley jet engine itself has an alternator.

Edited July 14, 2015 by smjjames

[LitaAlto]

Would it be possible to "amend" this rule with a total lift limit of 1 but with a free amount of control surfaces (e.g. 4x0.25)?

Also, are you posting the next race as a new thread?

Some thoughts here:

1. What about Throttle Controlled Aivonics? I don't think it'll actually help much due to it not being a VTOL challenge.

2. Any decisions on using stock only SAS or are mod SAS (like mine used) allowed?

3. Can stronger RCS from mods be used or can you only use those that are the same strength (or less) as stock RCS? While mine used the 5 way RCS (seriously, why isn't a 5-way RCS stock?) from MRS, it's the same strength as stock RCS.

4. "Using jet thrust to keep you clear of the ground for extended periods is prohibited. Please, thrill in the jump, and survive the jump if you can, but don't avoid the jump." How long would 'extended periods' be? The way I was doing it, using the jet (and those ducted fans) to control the jump while not actually avoiding it is probably ideal.

5. Can you clip through the markers? While I did clip the ramp of the marker base during my run, I was definetly trying to avoid it. Learned the hard way during practice runs that you REALLY do not want to hit that ramp.

6. Can we use the reactors from NFE as alternate power sources or use more advanced RTGs like the scout power pak from MKS (which is rather heavy though) or the PB-AS-NUK which is also from NFE? Though the wheesley jet engine itself has an alternator.

This is starting to get very complicated. And that worries me, because I don't want the challenge complicated in the first place. But by the same token, I want the nature of the challenge to be understood.

Let me start with the premise, and then we could come up with a short and unambiguous set of rules that best fit that premise.

This is an anti-grav race. Meaning, you must rely on the anti-gravity repulsors to keep from crashing.

The big heavy repulsors that stick out, on its own shock absorbers, for extra challenge. (And a modicum more power and durability--but mainly the challenge.)

Speed is only a consideration once we've established you aren't staying aloft longer than you can help it.

Yes, it's hard to keep a craft like this hovering against ground when you're approaching Mach 3. That's part of the challenge too.

That having been said....

I'm still leaning toward keeping the rule as currently stated--two control surfaces with 0.5 lift or lower + two AIRBRAKES. It's straightforward, and it's in the spirit that control surfaces should be used for control and steering, not outright lift. I recognize that it will make particular ship designs more challenging, but in a way, that's part of the point.

I really need a strict, unambiguous rule to ensure you're not under-utilizing the repulsors. I know radar altitude AKA surface altitude has been proposed, but you need mods, or otherwise use the IVA view and tolerate the cockpit radar altimeter (which still needs to be fixed, ahem.) Right now the best I can suggest is to keep the craft within a box with the cones marking off its corners vertically, and ask that you not over-rely on jet thrust to keep you aloft.

Since collision with the cones would otherwise be hazardous to both craft and crew, I'd say clipping through them should be a disqualification.

All mods are allowed. I'm requiring stock jet engines. Beyond that it's specific kinds of engines and thrusters I'm allowing or disallowing. Beyond that, I really don't want to be a rules lawyer here. I want less rules, but I also need to establish the parameters of the race enough that the spirit is understood and respected.

And yes, I will create a new thread for the new race. I just wanted to start sussing out the new race's rules here, with the old race fresh, to better figure out how to get the challenge right.

[smjjames]

I really need a strict, unambiguous rule to ensure you're not under-utilizing the repulsors. I know radar altitude AKA surface altitude has been proposed, but you need mods, or otherwise use the IVA view and tolerate the cockpit radar altimeter (which still needs to be fixed, ahem.) Right now the best I can suggest is to keep the craft within a box with the cones marking off its corners vertically, and ask that you not over-rely on jet thrust to keep you aloft.

Having the surface info window from either MJ or KER open could work here. It'd be passive obviously, but at least you'd see the altitude.

Since collision with the cones would otherwise be hazardous to both craft and crew, I'd say clipping through them should be a disqualification.

Would my accidential clipping of the ramp count under that rule? Not sure if I actually clipped the cone itself that time though. Just asking out of curiosity here.

[LitaAlto]

Having the surface info window from either MJ or KER open could work here. It'd be passive obviously, but at least you'd see the altitude.

Which would make MechJeb or KER required mods. Which is something I was trying to avoid.

Would my accidential clipping of the ramp count under that rule? Not sure if I actually clipped the cone itself that time though. Just asking out of curiosity here.

If by "ramp" you mean the base of the cone--that has a collider. The cone itself doesn't. So if you hit the base of the cone, that isn't a disqualification, but flying through the cone after the collision would be. Does that help?

[smjjames]

If by "ramp" you mean the base of the cone--that has a collider. The cone itself doesn't. So if you hit the base of the cone, that isn't a disqualification, but flying through the cone after the collision would be. Does that help?

Yeah that makes sense.

[LitaAlto]

OK, I'm going to take a week off from thinking about this challenge series. I'm having enough weird issues with KerbinSide, a production I'm involved in this weekend, and general work stress and lack of quiet time, that I need to hold off from anything involving this.

BUT, I am not abandoning this, by any stretch.

[JackDugan]

OK, I'm going to take a week off from thinking about this challenge series. I'm having enough weird issues with KerbinSide, a production I'm involved in this weekend, and general work stress and lack of quiet time, that I need to hold off from anything involving this.

BUT, I am not abandoning this, by any stretch.

That sounds great, actually. I'm going out of town for 10 or so days and leaving tomorrow.

[the_bT]

Next race at Black Krags sounds awesome! Dunno if I will stick to FAR though, 2 control surfaces only is harsh.

In any case... Race you there! Everything that qualified for round one goes. Last one at Krags buys the Food.

I'm serious, my time is 19 Minutes 14 Seconds from KSC Runway to Black Krags Start Gate.

PS:

Don't

Edited July 16, 2015 by the_bT

[smjjames]

Next race at Black Krags sounds awesome! Dunno if I will stick to FAR though, 2 control surfaces only is harsh.

In any case... Race you there! Everything that qualified for round one goes. Last one at Krags buys the Food.

I'm serious, my time is 19 Minutes 14 Seconds from KSC Runway to Black Krags Start Gate.

I'll upload the video shortly...

PS:

Don't

http://cdn.meme.li/i/ii18e.jpg

Lol, seriously? You're on.

I'll have to rebuild though as I've since deleted that save with the craft.

Also, anybody have better suggestions for free video recorder than bandicam? I did see https://obsproject.com/ get linked in another thread, but I can't figure out how to record it from desktop and not try to go from stream. The 'free' version of bandicam only does 10 minute chunks at a time.

Edited July 16, 2015 by smjjames

[the_bT]

I'm using Nvidia Shadowplay or whatever its called. It is part of the experience software that comes with the driver. However, I have basically no idea what I'm doing. It took a bit of tinkering to get it to work but now it does what it is told. I have decided to leave it at that

The files are very large so I assume they are uncompressed, my 20ish minute video was about 5 GB. I use Movie maker to do some very basic editing and export which brings the filesize down considerably. I believe this is achieved by applying magic.

Edited July 16, 2015 by the_bT

[nicky4096]

if you are using linux, simplescreenrecorder works well for me. http://www.maartenbaert.be/simplescreenrecorder/

if not, then http://www.ezvid.com/ will possibly work.

the installer runs under wine, but as it has to download 196 MB and i have garbage internet i can't check whether the actual thing runs.

anyway, hope this helps :]

edit: also, ninja'd

[smjjames]

Lol, I found out that my ship is actually capable of flying under it's own power, given the right ramp and speed to jump through it on.

Although it's not quite exactly the same craft becau... Wait, did I use the right jet engines? Edit: Yes I am. I guess I was just intentionally limiting it's potential during the race.

Edit: Is it me or do those large radiator panels provide a whole lot of body lift? Because I put a whole bunch of them on the craft to keep it from overheating and I keep having to fight bursts of body lift.

Edited July 16, 2015 by smjjames

[greydragon70]

Next race at Black Krags sounds awesome! Dunno if I will stick to FAR though, 2 control surfaces only is harsh.

In any case... Race you there! Everything that qualified for round one goes. Last one at Krags buys the Food.

I'm serious, my time is 19 Minutes 14 Seconds from KSC Runway to Black Krags Start Gate.

The Black Krags is a tuff course, if you don't have very good control of your craft you will crash or go off course.

That being said, I have slightly modified my Lawn Dart from my last attempt and I'm getting close to 2 minute runs

at Black Krags. My average speed was around mach1.

Spoilers! Test run video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij9s3ez6bkf53rg/black%20ridge%202m7.12s.mp4?dl=0

[smjjames]

Took three attempts, the first time, I realized that my craft was heating up quite a bit (due to those auxillary generators), so I went back to retrofit. The second time, I landed wrong on a slope and crashed (broke my craft in half), third attempt, 21min or so. I was trying to do unpowered glides as much as I could and keep the vertical speed in the negative as much as I could. Kept having to fight a lot of body lift when I was hitting higher horizontial speeds.

Although, it sort of looked like it was coming from those auxillary power units. Could someone look into that? Edit: Actually, no, it's coming from the MK2 spaceplane parts.

Totally capable of powered flight on it's own (I was apparently intentionally holding back it's capabilities during the race), also checking out the course.

Anybody know what the lift rating is on these MK2 spaceplane parts? I am not using wings, at all.

Not so good at landing though! (yes Jeb and Val survived)

Edited July 16, 2015 by smjjames

[greydragon70]

Took three attempts, the first time, I realized that my craft was heating up quite a bit (due to those auxillary generators), so I went back to retrofit. The second time, I landed wrong on a slope and crashed (broke my craft in half), third attempt, 21min or so. I was trying to do unpowered glides as much as I could and keep the vertical speed in the negative as much as I could. Kept having to fight a lot of body lift when I was hitting higher horizontial speeds.

Although, it sort of looked like it was coming from those auxillary power units. Could someone look into that? Edit: Actually, no, it's coming from the MK2 spaceplane parts.

Um yes, spaceplane parts all have lift, which is why I went back to the 1.25 cockpit and fuel tank. That and the 1.25 parts are lighter. For these races I'm starting to see that less is more.

[smjjames]

Yeah well, I wanted to use the craft that I used in round 1, so....

This course also looks like it would make a great rover course.

[*Aqua*]

Also, anybody have better suggestions for free video recorder than bandicam?

Debut Video Capture

For non-commercial it's free but some features are disabled.

[LitaAlto]

For clarification's sake--I have NOT started the new challenge yet.

I'll announce, in a SEPARATE thread, when I have.

[smjjames]

We know you haven't (at least I know), we're just talking and also checking out the course.