Starwaster

Heat Pumps v1.3.0 for Real Fuels - May 1, 2017

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1 minute ago, wb99999999 said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0_1amtr4ybuQldrZkx6dkpidjA link of the file

For some reason my Alt+F12 menu wouldn't open, so I got a mod called "Hot Spot" that displays thermal data for me.

Probably better do the log file too. And a probable cause of your Alt+F12 issue is some nvidia thing binding to those keys. Someone posted about that previously... the fix was to rebind them but I forget which nvidia thing was doing it. I think the workaround was pressing Shift+Alt+F12 or Cntrl+Alt+F12

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5 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

Probably better do the log file too. And a probable cause of your Alt+F12 issue is some nvidia thing binding to those keys. Someone posted about that previously... the fix was to rebind them but I forget which nvidia thing was doing it. I think the workaround was pressing Shift+Alt+F12 or Cntrl+Alt+F12

That is exactly what happened. I noticed Nvidia Playback popping up almost at the same time, lol.

Woops, I am not finding output_log.txt anywhere in my folder...what the heck???

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Just now, wb99999999 said:

That is exactly what happened. I noticed Nvidia Playback popping up almost at the same time, lol.

Woops, I am not finding output_log.txt anywhere in my folder...what the heck???

Doesn't matter; I see what the problem was. The radiator files that went into production are the wrong ones... they were basically a control version to test radiator performance without insulation :(

(well it does matter; you may need your output_log.txt file some day:  it's in KSP_x64_Data or KSP_Data depending on if you're in 64 bit mode or not -  unless you're using Linux or Mac. Then it's player.log)

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1 minute ago, Starwaster said:

Doesn't matter; I see what the problem was. The radiator files that went into production are the wrong ones... they were basically a control version to test radiator performance without insulation :(

(well it does matter; you may need your output_log.txt file some day:  it's in KSP_x64_Data or KSP_Data depending on if you're in 64 bit mode or not -  unless you're using Linux or Mac. Then it's player.log)

Ah, that's why the insulation value seen on the parts description is so strange (0.0001 or something like this, I was suspicious for a time)

The file is just not there. I searched the folder with the file name. It's just not there. Probably my install is completely broken... I'll just reinstall everything once this is sorted out.

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14 minutes ago, wb99999999 said:

Ah, that's why the insulation value seen on the parts description is so strange (0.0001 or something like this, I was suspicious for a time)

The file is just not there. I searched the folder with the file name. It's just not there. Probably my install is completely broken... I'll just reinstall everything once this is sorted out.

The insulation value seen in the part description info isn't really right either because it's using the old skin-internal factor and I switched over to using heatConductivity which affects ALL heat conduction including skin-internal. That's how RF determines what kinds of insulation it has and how to handle the conduction and boiloff. The changes went into each mod simultaneously except that the heat pump part info code didn't get updated (it's kind of tricky because it still has the capacity to change BOTH conduction fields) and the part configs didn't change from their test configs.

I updated the config files in the repository. The patch file StockRadiatorDuplication.cfg goes in the MM_Configs folder and the other in the Parts/zzz_radiator.SWHP folder (just right click and save links as)

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/HeatPump/master/GameData/000_HeatPump/MM_Configs/StockRadiatorDuplication.cfg

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/HeatPump/master/GameData/000_HeatPump/Parts/zzz_radiator.SWHP/part.cfg

You may notice the configs have a commented out RO line - just ignore that for now. It'll matter later when I fix the electric cost which is too low

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On 8/12/2017 at 7:15 AM, Starwaster said:

The insulation value seen in the part description info isn't really right either because it's using the old skin-internal factor and I switched over to using heatConductivity which affects ALL heat conduction including skin-internal. That's how RF determines what kinds of insulation it has and how to handle the conduction and boiloff. The changes went into each mod simultaneously except that the heat pump part info code didn't get updated (it's kind of tricky because it still has the capacity to change BOTH conduction fields) and the part configs didn't change from their test configs.

I updated the config files in the repository. The patch file StockRadiatorDuplication.cfg goes in the MM_Configs folder and the other in the Parts/zzz_radiator.SWHP folder (just right click and save links as)

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/HeatPump/master/GameData/000_HeatPump/MM_Configs/StockRadiatorDuplication.cfg

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/HeatPump/master/GameData/000_HeatPump/Parts/zzz_radiator.SWHP/part.cfg

You may notice the configs have a commented out RO line - just ignore that for now. It'll matter later when I fix the electric cost which is too low

Thanks for the fix, working nicely in RP-0 now.

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Am I missing something?!!!

I have the mod installed, but the part doesn't come up in VAB. I can't find it anywhere in the tech tree.

ZZZradiator right?

I tried it both with and without NoNonRp0 folder enabled, just in case it was tagged non-Rp0 

Is it in a really late node and I'm just missing it?

Help (please)

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On 10/22/2017 at 6:09 PM, GentlyBent said:

Am I missing something?!!!

I have the mod installed, but the part doesn't come up in VAB. I can't find it anywhere in the tech tree.

ZZZradiator right?

I tried it both with and without NoNonRp0 folder enabled, just in case it was tagged non-Rp0 

Is it in a really late node and I'm just missing it?

Help (please)

It's most likely being hidden by RP0 and I assume the other radiators (duplicates of the stock radiators but using HP instead) are the same

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How's fixing the time warp issue? Has any progress been made? In wanted to go to Mars on LH2/LOX but i think might have trouble in Mars orbit

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Interesting mod! I always wanted to prevent boiloff on my ships. Now i can finally begin my interplanetary adventure!

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2 hours ago, phoneix_007 said:

Why does time-warping in KSC doesn't stop boiloff?

Because time warping (higher than 100x) thermal physics uses a different model of physics which is not grounded in real world physics other than radiation and a single temperature is assigned to the entire vehicle. It's possible to override on a part by part basis but the bulk of that has to happen in Real Fuels (assuming RF is where your boiloff is happening. HP won't help with other mods boiloff unless they implement it based on ksp thermal physics like RF does)

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hi everyone! hope you are doing great!

by any chance, are you referring/using the following part to prevent boiloff? I can't seem to manage that. I run a standard 1.2.2 RSS, RO, RP-0 install with the only aggregate of Background Processing & KSP Interstellar Extended (could this mod be bugging my radiators?) - also I read from the part's description that's not compatible with RO/RP-0, maybe I have a wrong part.cfg?

Capture.png

many thanks in advance!!!

EDIT 2: I managed to do a little test in orbit and found out the average heat transfer for a set of 8 of these in a 5x10mts procedural cryo tank is roughly 20 kW/h - when I activate 100x timewarp, the heat transfer goes up instantly to 50 kW/h and I get the least boiloff (though it does not eliminate it completely)

Edited by hypervelocity
forgot to be thankful

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10 hours ago, hypervelocity said:

hi everyone! hope you are doing great!

by any chance, are you referring/using the following part to prevent boiloff? I can't seem to manage that. I run a standard 1.2.2 RSS, RO, RP-0 install with the only aggregate of Background Processing & KSP Interstellar Extended (could this mod be bugging my radiators?) - also I read from the part's description that's not compatible with RO/RP-0, maybe I have a wrong part.cfg?

Capture.png

many thanks in advance!!!

EDIT 2: I managed to do a little test in orbit and found out the average heat transfer for a set of 8 of these in a 5x10mts procedural cryo tank is roughly 20 kW/h - when I activate 100x timewarp, the heat transfer goes up instantly to 50 kW/h and I get the least boiloff (though it does not eliminate it completely)

Yes that part is used in the mod but it's unlikely that other mods would be affecting it, even mods that use that part too. Ours is inserted into the game separately as a unique part and doesn't use any modules (radiator or otherwise) that other mods might target.

It works in two ways: it applies variable cooling depending on current heat leakage rates and a flat rate that kicks in if the tank is overheated.

Like real world ZBO applications, it works best if it is combined with a tank with lots of insulation.

Now, while I don't think radiator interference is likely, other mods might add their own boiloff to a tank and the ones that I know of apply arbitrary boiloff rates that are not based on temperature or heat leakage so Heat Pump would be useless for those, so try to ensure that you don't have other mods applying their own boiloff

Edit:

KSPI does do boiloff and it is at least partially temperature based though their implementation looks a bit wonky. Not really sure to what extent this mod could mitigate their boiloff but my suggestion stands that you should disable any boiloff except Real Fuels. (the time warp issue is very much on my mind with regards to RF boiloff and I'm exploring ways to correct those issues)

Edited by Starwaster

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many thanks for your response @Starwaster!!!! I will perform some tests without KSPIE to check whether the mod is producing interference.

just a last question: in your builds, the aforementioned radiator part completely stops boiloff for a PP cryo tank provided it has enough electricity & is below the timewarp limit? 

EDIT: also, regarding my screenshot above - isnt't it strange that the part reads to be incompatible with RP-0/RO

Edited by hypervelocity

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10 hours ago, hypervelocity said:

many thanks for your response @Starwaster!!!! I will perform some tests without KSPIE to check whether the mod is producing interference.

just a last question: in your builds, the aforementioned radiator part completely stops boiloff for a PP cryo tank provided it has enough electricity & is below the timewarp limit? 

EDIT: also, regarding my screenshot above - isnt't it strange that the part reads to be incompatible with RP-0/RO

If it has enough electricity and is not in analytical time warp mode (100x) then yes it will stop boiloff completely because it intercepts all incoming heat. However, if there is any period of time in which it was not able to provide full cooling (insufficient electricity, turned off/retracted or analytic mode) then it will have to go into overdrive trying to cool the tank down, which takes time.

No, it is not at all strange that it (as you say) is shown to be incompatible. More precisely it says it is not supported, which happens if the part is not tagged with RSSROConfig

(https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/bf4413550e1a873f094d862d72feb2150c64c3e1/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RealismOverhaul_Global_Config.cfg#L256-L262)

That's all that means. Realistically, about the only reason I can think of for not slapping that label on is that the electrical cost is 1000x cheaper than it should be. According to literature (numerous sources) from NASA on the subject, the electrical cost is approximately 114 watts electricity per watt of heat removed. Right now it's costing you 114 watts per kilowatt removed.

Having said that... even with that cost and even with the lack of a label tagging it as compatible/supported.... my HP parts are STILL more realistic than any current configured radiator in Realism Overhaul that is currently tagged with RSSROConfig = true. The reason I say that is that they use the stock radiator code and a flat resource cost instead of a variable cost based on the amount of cooling being provided. (the stock code simply doesn't allow for a variable rate, only a flat rate)

So don't worry that it says it's not supported. Instead worry about the day that it says that it IS supported. That will be the day that I increase the electrical cost to what it should be. However, that will also be the day that Real Fuels allows you to customize the amount of insulation your tanks have. On that day you'll be sending a ship off to Mars with tanks that have tens of watts of heat leakage instead of tens of kilowatts so you'll be able to afford the electrical cost. (so... I guess don't worry about it anyway)

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I'm calling for help from anyone knowledgeable about cryocoolers and refrigeration in general, preferably if you've actually worked in the field and have good working knowledge on the subject (as opposed to a layperson such as myself who studies as much as he can on the subject but really doesn't know much more than what he's read)

Currently the mod charges a flat rate for resources per watt of heat removed based on the DRA proposals for Mars missions. That comes out to just over 100 watts of electricity per watt of heat removed. (so passive insulation is a must which is why that's been a part of this mod and is VERY soon going to be replaced by configurable passive (MLI) in Real Fuels)

If your tank is already overheated those electrical costs get VERY expensive and that strikes me as unrealistic given that the original citation was for cryogenic temperatures, specifically for liquid hydrogen at around 20K.

So I need help in determining how that cost would be affected by higher temperatures. Specifically I need a range of electrical costs from 4K - 300K. 

The new heat pump RESOURCE node format is going to change in the next update to this:

(the first number of each key is the temperature of the tank that heat is being removed from and the second number is the cost per watt removed - the last two numbers aren't important to this discussion)

(actually the cost is KWe per KWt removed since that's scale used by RF but that's just a scaling issue; the math is the same)

		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate
			{
				key = 4 2000 -367.5568 -272.2836
				key = 20.15 114 -13.8706 -13.8706
				key = 40.3 28.5 -1.12649 -1.12649
				key = 80 7.113802 -0.312432 -0.312432
				key = 92 3.988803 -0.1483255 -0.146298
				key = 120 2 -0.01839706 -0.01839706
				key = 240 1 0 0
			}
		}

 

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this mod worked for me on my 1.2.2 rss ro install but crashes my 1.3.1 rss ro install should i send a crash report thingy also this is what it says when it carshes mono.dll caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005)
  in module mono.dll at 0033:b1780e18.

 

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19 hours ago, Jim123 said:

this mod worked for me on my 1.2.2 rss ro install but crashes my 1.3.1 rss ro install should i send a crash report thingy also this is what it says when it carshes mono.dll caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005)
  in module mono.dll at 0033:b1780e18.

 

I don't know, SHOULD you send a crash report thingy? 

I don't have a lot of information to go by otherwise ;) 

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So, in other news there will likely be one more update of Heat Pumps for both KSP 1.3.1 and KSP 1.4.*

After that there will be a new mod replacing it which extends the stock radiators and that fixes a few of the problems with them and has special handling for cryogenic temperatures, specifically a variable cooling rate based on Carnot efficiency multiplied by a cryocooler efficiency (which would be configurable and thus could be the subject of upgrade nodes)

The same system will be incorporated into the Heat Pumps update mentioned on line 1 (so instead of the variable electrical cost I mentioned a few posts back it would be a constant electrical input with the actual cooling rate determined by part temperature and radiator skin temperature)

The new mod is actually ready to go but it doesn't make sense to release it until Real Fuels is updated with the new insulation code. (active cooling for zero boiloff is only really effective when combined with passive cooling)

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7 hours ago, Jim123 said:

I see no direct evidence that Heat Pump itself is the cause of your crash.

The most likely cause is the fact that you are using the wrong version of multiple plugins including Module Manager and Fusebox Continued.

  • Module Manager has multiple versions in your GameData folder. Delete all of them except for 3.0.4. That is the latest one for KSP 1.3.1; everything after is for 1.4.*
  • Fusebox is also using a version that is for 1.4.1. This is of particular interest because it incorporates a replacement for the Part class and there are several method calls going through that replacement from PartLoader during part compilation which is when your game crashed.

I can't go through your entire log comparing version numbers; that's your responsibility. Please go through your KSP mod installations AND VERIFY EVERYTHING. Make sure you have mod versions that are confirmed by their authors and maintainers to be compatible with KSP 1.3.1

OR YOU WILL SERIOUSLY SCREW THINGS UP AND MAKE ME ANGRY ENOUGH TO USE COMIC SANS IN UNDERLINED BOLD PRINT ITALICS!!!!

And trust me, nobody wants THAT! :) 

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