64 bit WIN version of KSP, LINUX(WIN 7 dual boot) or Virtual Linux(on WIN 7) ?

[uglyduckling81]

I tried recently to run SLI in Mint and was unable to get it too function. Spent 3 days playing with it.

I stopped using the Linux version as I had just as many crashes as with Windows. I think it might of been the two video cards and the dodgy Nvidia drivers causing the issue though.

Now I'm on one card I have a mind to try it again.

I was able to get two monitors to work in Linux easy enough. Not in game but for a browser screen it worked fine.

[Hannu]

Why on earth would you install a Linux, JUST for KSP? Why is that 64 bit Windows version of KSP still not working? That's the million dollar question..

Why it is million dollar question for you? It takes one afternoon time and 100 GB hard disk space to install Linux on the side of Windows, graphix drivers, KSP and load of mods. Disk space costs about 10$ and time some tens of dollars if you want to think so. I agree that it is annoying and possibility to use other Windows software simultaneously is so important that I played my last save in Windows without graphical fancy stuff and Outer planets mod. But if such things are necessary for someone it is easy and cheap to install Linux and play instead of waiting and complaining from year to year.

[steve_v]

Exactly, It strikes me as somewhat bizarre that people will go to such great lengths as the Win64 hack, then complain that it doesn't work properly or mods are locked out - when installing a GNU/Linux dual-boot is about the same amount of work.

Of course I switched entirely many years ago, so I may be a little biased. But I sure don't complain so hard when I have to install Windows for a game - Should be asking: "Why on earth would you install Windows, JUST for <insert game here>?"

All in all, I suspect I find Windows every bit as annoying as some here claim Linux is... It's about what you're used to.

If you install a new OS that you know next to nothing about, expect to have to learn the OS to get anything done. It's the same for people using Windows/MacOS/BSD etc. for the first time.

Installing GNU/Linux just for one game, not bothering to learn how to use it, then complaining that it's "not as easy" as a system you have been using for years is just plain silly.

If you're willing to take the plunge and actually use GNU/Linux... who knows, you might like it, once you get used to it.

Edited July 19, 2015 by steve_v

[soulsource]

Dognosh, no it;s nothing to do with the Unity game engine. And if you should find that KDE is hogging more resources than you'd like, try Xfce as a desktop - it's a pleasant lightweight old-school GUI. I;lve heard good things of LXDE too, although I haven;t tried it myself.

I agree on this. Both, Gnome 3 and KDE (4 or 5) require insane amounts of resources, especially RAM. With KDE one can disable desktop effects (aka compositing) to reduce the RAM usage of the desktop drastically, but this still leaves the KDE applications, which are quite often memory hogs.

Also, as the plan seems to be to only install Linux for KSP, there seems to be little need for all the great applications that would come with KDE or Gnome. What I'd do therefore, would be to already install the system with a lightweight desktop and a selection of lightweight applications, just to save disk space. You can try to have a look at Xubuntu, Debian with Xfce, Lubuntu, or Linux Mint MATE. (Of this list, Debian with Xfce is the most lightweight, but as I already said, slightly more difficult to set up than the rest.) Of course, it's always possible to install another desktop at a later time, it's just more tedious to uninstall stuff that isn't required any more if one wants to.

[JSD]

Why it is million dollar question for you? It takes one afternoon time and 100 GB hard disk space to install Linux on the side of Windows, graphix drivers, KSP and load of mods. Disk space costs about 10$ and time some tens of dollars if you want to think so. I agree that it is annoying and possibility to use other Windows software simultaneously is so important that I played my last save in Windows without graphical fancy stuff and Outer planets mod. But if such things are necessary for someone it is easy and cheap to install Linux and play instead of waiting and complaining from year to year.

Because, if you really think about it; It's kind of madness you have or want to install install Linux just for KSP. I doesn't matter how easy it may or not may be. It's weird lot a players have to turn this way, JUST so they can play a clean, and normal KSP version as it should be. It shouldn't be necessary at all!

[steve_v]

Again, I often 'have or want' to install Windows for games, and I don't complain about it.

I still hate using it, but if that's what it takes to run the game I want to play, so be it.

In a perfect world all software would run perfectly on all platforms... this is not a perfect world, and we just have to deal with it.

I even have a pre-installed image (called "Wintendo 7") that I can dump onto a drive when needed... For me, Windows is only for games, and I don't find that at all mad.

Edited July 24, 2015 by steve_v

[Esme]

Whatever Linux version you take, it doesn't really matter. Linux has a long, and deep learning curve.

Caveat 1: If you just want to get on and play KSP, browse the web, use email - stick with the distros that have a good reputation as being particularly user-friendly. There are distros out there (like Arch and Gentoo) that are for the experienced only. I will not go into why here.

Caveat 2: For the average user, Linux's learning curve isn't, IMO, any longer or deeper than Windows' is. IF you want to dig deep, heck, yes, there's lots to play with 'under the hood' - and because it's open source, it is made relatively easy for you to do just that. If you just want the OS to make your hardware into a useful piece of equipment to Just Work and Get Stuff Done (like playing KSP) then Linux these days is, IMO, easier to use than Windows, and far less of a 'pain in the arse' than Windows (true, it used to be the other way around, but in the last few years, Linux has left Wiondows behind in terms of ease of use, with the sole caveat that this presumes you are NOT using cutting-edge hardware, as it's still sadly the case that few hardware creators create linux drivers for their kit,where needed, so it takes a wee while for the opensource community to figure out what's needed to make new hardware (particularly graphics cards) work well, code open source drivers and get them out there for all to use).

Without wishing to get into any kind of heated argument with anyone, Windows is 'still the bigegst player' mostly because of the deals that MS has with hardware vendors to have it pre-installed on new PCs. If it were made law that PCs had to be buyable without an OS, so that OS's were bought only as an optional extra, I'd suggest that Windows market share would be markedly lower, as yer average non-game-playing user would be likely to take the free/cheap alternative rather than the expensive one. And have considerably less problems as a result, these days. That said, some people just plain like Windows, and I don't have a problem with that, no matter how strange I may think they are ;-} When all's said and done, an OS is what transforms the hardware on your desk from something usable only a a doorstop into something you can do useful and fun things with - go with whichever OS floats your boat.

As for 64 bit version of KSP not working, that's a Unity problem, not a KSP one, this has been said many, many times on the forums, JSD. If Unity 5 lacks the problem, then a Unity 5 based 64-bit version of KSP for Windows should work fine. But as Unity 3 DOES have a problem with 64 bit Windows, you will just have to have a little patience. It's not as if the 32 bit version of KSP is so terrible is it?!

[JSD]

Caveat 1: If you just want to get on and play KSP, browse the web, use email - stick with the distros that have a good reputation as being particularly user-friendly. There are distros out there (like Arch and Gentoo) that are for the experienced only. I will not go into why here.

Caveat 2: For the average user, Linux's learning curve isn't, IMO, any longer or deeper than Windows' is. IF you want to dig deep, heck, yes, there's lots to play with 'under the hood' - and because it's open source, it is made relatively easy for you to do just that. If you just want the OS to make your hardware into a useful piece of equipment to Just Work and Get Stuff Done (like playing KSP) then Linux these days is, IMO, easier to use than Windows, and far less of a 'pain in the arse' than Windows (true, it used to be the other way around, but in the last few years, Linux has left Wiondows behind in terms of ease of use, with the sole caveat that this presumes you are NOT using cutting-edge hardware, as it's still sadly the case that few hardware creators create linux drivers for their kit,where needed, so it takes a wee while for the opensource community to figure out what's needed to make new hardware (particularly graphics cards) work well, code open source drivers and get them out there for all to use).

Without wishing to get into any kind of heated argument with anyone, Windows is 'still the bigegst player' mostly because of the deals that MS has with hardware vendors to have it pre-installed on new PCs. If it were made law that PCs had to be buyable without an OS, so that OS's were bought only as an optional extra, I'd suggest that Windows market share would be markedly lower, as yer average non-game-playing user would be likely to take the free/cheap alternative rather than the expensive one. And have considerably less problems as a result, these days. That said, some people just plain like Windows, and I don't have a problem with that, no matter how strange I may think they are ;-} When all's said and done, an OS is what transforms the hardware on your desk from something usable only a a doorstop into something you can do useful and fun things with - go with whichever OS floats your boat.

As for 64 bit version of KSP not working, that's a Unity problem, not a KSP one, this has been said many, many times on the forums, JSD. If Unity 5 lacks the problem, then a Unity 5 based 64-bit version of KSP for Windows should work fine. But as Unity 3 DOES have a problem with 64 bit Windows, you will just have to have a little patience. It's not as if the 32 bit version of KSP is so terrible is it?!

You have a point, and you don't have a point at all. Yes, overall speaking you totally have a solid point. BUT, there a way to many Linux distro's to begin with. It's a freaking jungle out there. There are way to many! Yes, there are absolutely Linux distro's on the market that are perfect! BUT because there are some many different sorts and shapes, you kinda need the luck to ran into one. I am a Linux user for years now, and still learn about different distro's. I just don't have the time and energy to try or install them all. That is the power of Linux, and his curse. It's too damn much. Windows is, as we speaking here trying to reduce all that. Windows 10 will be at some point: Windows. They want to get rid of all those versions. Vista, XP, 7, 8.1. Windows 10 will be at some point just Windows. Everybody the same. To be honest; I don't like the path that this new Windows go's too. I don't know. For me it's a little bit to childish. Colorful. "The new ages". I don't like the tiles. The apps. The social networking crap. All those ......... BUT, they know one thing; get rid of all of that unnecessary ......... One version. One system. Linux is to hardcore to be mainstream and point to click. Like Windows is. For many distro's I need to do a whole lot of work and unnecessary ........ to use three screens or "see" my tv. For some versions I need even commands before they allowed me to take something from my USD drive. Windows or Microsoft may have a lot of deals everywhere, it work most of the times. That's all that really matter. Hook a cable in you tv, plug it in your pc, and Windows deals with it for you. Linux on the other hand.. You pretty much need some third party software .... to handle it, or you have to do some complicated commands to make before it works. It just somehow isn't working completely right..

And last but least: The all time, favorite ........ story of them all.. It's Unity's fault. I don't how your looking at things, but if it was my company.. It's Unity's problem is not a reason. If it really is.. I dump Unity in all it's glory. Unity is a paid engine. You paid them to used that engine. It's a goddamn company on its own! Today the standard for the gaming industries is a 64 bit support. You make it work! With or without them. It's not about the patience, it's about what you as a company wants to tolerate. Unity one, two, three, four of five.. who gives a ....? A user just want to be able to play a working 64 bit version. Simple as that. Windows, Linux, Mac OS or even Titzen. It shouldn't matter..

Edited July 27, 2015 by JSD

[Alshain]

Before you make any major changes to your computer I would suggest wait and see on 1.1. We may get x64, we may not, but if you have never used Linux I wouldn't jump to learning to use it just for KSP until we know for sure.

I mean unless you are like me and just like to learn new computer stuff all the time, then go for it!

[steve_v]

get rid of all of that unnecessary ......... One version. One system.

No. The day that happens to GNU/Linux will be the day I roll my own distro (again).

Versatility and diversity are the very characteristics that have allowed GNU/Linux to succeed thus far. Make everything so simple a 2 year old could figure it out and you simultaneously slam the door on anyone who wants to innovate and find new ways to use or modify the software.

GNU/Linux runs on everything from a network router to a smart TV to the meanest supercomputers in the world.

Microsoft cannot claim the same, precisely because of this dumbing-down and "one size fits all" attitude.

Linux is to hardcore to be mainstream and point to click.

Good. Excellent in fact. This way Linux gets only the users that are willing to contribute to the project, rather than complaining.

Everybody the same.

You may have noticed, people have different ideas and different needs. I, for example, do not agree with you on this point. Would you like everyone to have identical houses, clothes, cars, ideals etc. too?

As far as I can tell, you're just whining because you don't have x64 for your favourite OS. Life is Hard.

Despite it's shortcomings, Unity3D is way ahead of the curve in terms of cross-platform compatibility.

It'd be nice if it worked equally well on all platforms, but that's just how it is at the moment. Wait for U5, then re-evaluate.

I mean unless you are like me and just like to learn new computer stuff all the time...

As do I, sir. As do I.

Learning is good, and new toys are interesting.

Edited July 28, 2015 by steve_v
Remove duplicate words ;)

[uglyduckling81]

Well I have spent all my spare time for the last 4 days or so trying to get a linux distro to work with a GTX 970 and how now given up. Black screen on boot no matter what I do. If linux every hopes to become more main stream they really have to sort out this stupid nouveau driver issue. Both times I've tried to use Linux I've spent days fighting with it. First time I had a win this time I failed.

[Harry Rhodan]

Black screen on boot no matter what I do.

It's probably trying to use your onboard graphics. Turn it off.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Harry Rhodan

[haltux]

Linux has left Wiondows behind in terms of ease of use, with the sole caveat that this presumes you are NOT using cutting-edge hardware

It presumes you are not using a recent graphic card (who does not around here?), you are not using Wifi, you are not using a Webcam, you don't have a laptop. Or you are very lucky.

I am using Linux for 15 years (mainly in my job), and I love it. I know that the global driver issue is not the fault of anyone in the Linux community, it is because hardware manufacturer do not care about Linux and for some reason they do not want to agree on hardware level standards.

But in my numerous (sometimes successfull) attempts to have a completely, satisfyingly running Linux desktop with everything working smoothly, with Wifi, webcam, graphic drivers with OpenGL, it never happened that everything wroked at first attempt when I installed the Linux distribution. Never. Even (and that's the worst part) when I checked on the Web the avilability of drivers before buying my hardware. I always had to recompile kernel modules, to adapt silly scripts I found on the Web made for another distribution, and so on...

Linux works greatly and is as easy to use as Windows, or even more (when installing new packages for example), once it is up and running. But to make it work (for a gamer / multimedia use), that's another story.

[selfish_meme]

Well I have spent all my spare time for the last 4 days or so trying to get a linux distro to work with a GTX 970 and how now given up. Black screen on boot no matter what I do. If linux every hopes to become more main stream they really have to sort out this stupid nouveau driver issue. Both times I've tried to use Linux I've spent days fighting with it. First time I had a win this time I failed.

Also your not supposed to use noveau. Get a console prompt (ctrl-alt-f1 I think, check that) and install the proprietary nvidia drivers the GTX 970 is very new and support for it not great yet.

[WeirdCulture]

Well I have spent all my spare time for the last 4 days or so trying to get a linux distro to work with a GTX 970 and how now given up. Black screen on boot no matter what I do. If linux every hopes to become more main stream they really have to sort out this stupid nouveau driver issue. Both times I've tried to use Linux I've spent days fighting with it. First time I had a win this time I failed.

change "quiet splash" to "nomodset" in your grub.cfg else find here: http://bfy.tw/11Yn

[soulsource]

Well I have spent all my spare time for the last 4 days or so trying to get a linux distro to work with a GTX 970 and how now given up. Black screen on boot no matter what I do. If linux every hopes to become more main stream they really have to sort out this stupid nouveau driver issue. Both times I've tried to use Linux I've spent days fighting with it. First time I had a win this time I failed.

The Linux kernel might have troubles setting video modes on your computer. You can try to start the installer using the nomodeset kernel option. How to boot the installer with this option depends on the distribution you're going to install. Also, after installation you might have to temporarily use the nomodeset parameter to boot the system, but once you install the proprietary nVidia drivers (what I'd recommend, as it's much better than the open source drivers in all but one aspect) it shouldn't be needed any more.

Edit: Ninja'd...

[steve_v]

If linux every hopes to become more main stream they really have to sort out this stupid nouveau driver issue.

I seriously doubt anyone on the Linux kernel team has the slightest interest in becoming "mainstream", whatever that actually means in this context.

The open source drivers don't support the latest GPUs yet because the manufacturers haven't been nice enough to provide said support, or even the required information for the volunteer kernel hackers to write that code. Linus Torvalds had a few choice expletives for NVIDIA on that very topic not too long ago.

As has been mentioned, no video on boot is, with 99% probability, due to lack of kernel modesetting support in the nouveau driver.

Disable modesetting, blacklist the nouveau driver or both. Then boot to a console and install Nvidias binary driver. Direct any further complaints to Nvidia.

Granted, support for the latest gizmos comes a bit slower when the OEM is blatantly un co-operative, but who you gonna blame here?

If hardware manufacturers would get A into G and actually uphold the supposed industry standards, this whole mess would be a lot less trouble.

As for hardware support, on my current system:

GPU: check (Nvidia driver)

CUDA/OpenCL: check, crunching for GPUGRID right now.

Wifi: Check, in-kernel driver.

Webcam: Check, in-kernel driver.

8-port SAS card: Check, in-kernel driver.

Bluetooth: Check, driver downloaded and compiled from manufacturer.

Installation was neither painful nor any more time consuming than setting up Windows.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want help, I'll do my best to assist. If you just want to complain I'll happily argue with you.

Edited July 28, 2015 by steve_v

[pap1723]

I know you have probably received a lot of replies and opinions, but I want to give you my experience.

I was playing on Windows 7 for about a month and continually added to my mods as I found new interesting ones. I was experiencing a crash an hour or so. I decided to take the plunge and try dual booting Linux. Now, I am good with computers, but have never used Linux before.

I decided on Kubuntu and couldn't be happier! I am now running 40+ Mods at full graphics and have experienced only 1 crash in a week of play.

Just make sure you have room on your hard drive and can have it set up as FAT32 formatting.

[uglyduckling81]

Also your not supposed to use noveau. Get a console prompt (ctrl-alt-f1 I think, check that) and install the proprietary nvidia drivers the GTX 970 is very new and support for it not great yet.

Yeah I have done this. I was able to get it too boot with software rendering mode but never using the GPU hardware.

change "quiet splash" to "nomodset" in your grub.cfg else find here: http://bfy.tw/11Yn

Did this also, though I read it as add nomodeset after quiet spash.

I seriously doubt anyone on the Linux kernel team has the slightest interest in becoming "mainstream", whatever that actually means in this context.

Disable modesetting, blacklist the nouveau driver or both. Then boot to a console and install Nvidias binary driver. Direct any further complaints to Nvidia.

Did both of these things.

Also making the OS more user friendly and attracting more users is precisely what Linux distros are trying to achieve. More users means more money coming in and more development and support their OS will receive. The reason Nvidia and AMD don't bother as much as we might like with Linux is because only 1.5% of PC users are running Linux. That's a tiny percentage for them to spend much money and time with. Hopefully SteamOS will see a large influx of users and Linux will get some much needed love and support.

It's hard to believe but I didn't sit around for 4 days just pressing the power button and praying. I tried everything I could find on the forums and tried a half dozen different distros. All the same issue. I'll double check the IGPU is disabled. It normally is but I do occasionally reset the BIOS and forget various settings.

Edited July 28, 2015 by uglyduckling81

[IggyHitokage]

Exactly, It strikes me as somewhat bizarre that people will go to such great lengths as the Win64 hack

If we're not talking about general bugginess (which I haven't encountered much in the last 4 days of testing), what "great lengths"? You download a large file, install or extract two specific files, rename one and place them in specific places in the KSP folder.

Seems like that's a step down from getting another partition on a hard drive, or a flash drive, finding and downloading a new OS, learning a new OS, hunting for drivers, etc.

It doesn't help that my card (GTX 560 Ti) has poor OpenGL performance, 200+ part launches are impossible on any graphical setting, not including the lack of anti-aliasing. Even enabling it through the Nvidia control panel actually causes the UI to get smoothed unnecessarily and makes it difficult to look at and read.

Edited July 29, 2015 by IggyHitokage

[selfish_meme]

If we're not talking about general bugginess (which I haven't encountered much in the last 4 days of testing), what "great lengths"? You download a large file, install or extract two specific files, rename one and place them in specific places in the KSP folder.

Seems like that's a step down from getting another partition on a hard drive, or a flash drive, finding and downloading a new OS, learning a new OS, hunting for drivers, etc.

It doesn't help that my card (GTX 560 Ti) has poor OpenGL files, 200+ part launches are impossible on any graphical setting, not including the lack of anti-aliasing. Even enabling it through the Nvidia control panel actually causes the UI to get smoothed unnecessarily and makes it difficult to look at and read.

Your graphics card has nothing to do with part count and the game is graphically non taxing, its not like other games that are GPU bound, KSP is CPU bound, the only thing that will make it run faster is a faster CPU

[Sidereus]

Again thanks all

OK , LINUX dual boot it is.

Now, which one ? which GUI for it ? (or it comes with one these days ? )

so far we have MINT & DEBIAN ?

Why not both?

Although, since the other versions of Mint are Ubuntu-based, sticking with them gives you access to the Ubuntu depositories, which probably have the largest selection of Linux-based software. Not sure if you get those with LMDE. Debian is also somewhat less user-friendly; it will require you learn more right off the bat.

As for desktops, at least for Mint I prefer MATE, but that's mostly because it's fairly lean. Cinnamon is quite pretty, and KDE isn't bad either, but they're both a bit more resource intensive. The nice thing is you can have multiple desktop environments installed and switch between them fairly easily, so you can try them out.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Sidereus

[IggyHitokage]

Your graphics card has nothing to do with part count and the game is graphically non taxing, its not like other games that are GPU bound, KSP is CPU bound, the only thing that will make it run faster is a faster CPU

Sooo... changing the graphics renderer between DX9, DX11 and OpenGL has nothing to do with the GPU? DX9 has no issue with large launches, DX11 chugs a bit and OpenGL is just a disaster in slow motion.

[steve_v]

making the OS more user friendly and attracting more users is precisely what Linux distros are trying to achieve.

While some distros are focused on home PC users, the vast majority of the GNU/Linux market is on servers. Where GPUs are largely irrelevant.

Also, what "money coming in"? You didn't actually pay for your Linux distro, did you?

I tried everything I could find on the forums and tried a half dozen different distros.

It would of course save considerable time and duplicate advice if you mention the things you have already tried, no?

Forums catering for the distro you are using might also be a better place to look than the KSP forum (no disrespect to users of said forum intended), as this is a general hardware issue not specifically related to KSP.

If you're certain it's not picking your IGPU over the discrete card, you could also try forcing a generic VESA mode at boot, by passing 'vga=<mode number>' on the kernel command line. Those should be supported by everything, unless of course Nvidia is playing truly silly games with us again.

Again, once you have some video up, install Nvidias binary driver - after checking that your card is actually supported OFC.

- - - Updated - - -

As for desktops, at least for Mint I prefer MATE, but that's mostly because it's fairly lean...

Lean you say? How about RatPoison?

The inspiration for the name is particularly amusing

Edited July 29, 2015 by steve_v

[selfish_meme]

Sooo... changing the graphics renderer between DX9, DX11 and OpenGL has nothing to do with the GPU? DX9 has no issue with large launches, DX11 chugs a bit and OpenGL is just a disaster in slow motion.

I said a better GPU won't make it run faster, all changing it to dx11 does is sort out a duplicate loading bug and save you memory. It won't let you load more parts because you use a different 3D Library, it will just give you more memory overhead.

Unity has better Windows DX11 Optimisation but again thats not directly related to part counts.

The thing that makes it chug is the single threaded physics calculations for lots of parts, not the GPU rendering said parts.

Edited July 29, 2015 by selfish_meme