A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[steuben]

Quote

sounds of wrenches and hammers on steel.

just a detail note. I think there's little actual steel used in module and rocket construction... might be worth digging into. <makes a research note for the greenfields series.>

Feels like you're playing towards the stale beer flavour of spy fiction, at least in the first few segments.

I'm beginning to root for the empire, and hope they grease this guy at the end. You may have strayed into Designated Hero territory while aiming for either a Jerkass Hero or an Anti-Hero.

[Alpha 360]

Thanks! This is a new story type that I'm playing around with. I was aiming for the Anti-Hero, as Mr. Kerman has some.......moral grey zones. But later I try to make him more and more, I can't say human so lets say kerbal.

Also using some more terms, I was planning for Mr. Kerman to be a Noble Bigot or something of the sort. 

Happy Explosions. 

 

[SiriusRocketry]

A little activity in the Jeb's Ride thread... I've posted a little interlude in between Chapters One and Two to tide you all over! If you'd like to catch the newest development (and maybe give me some feedback on this very short piece) follow the link! YAY!

 

[Spaceception]

Hey everyone, have any of you done co-op writing with someone? Or know any tips for that? My girlfriend and I are planning a science fantasy/fiction (There's magic)? series, and we'll be planning each book out next month and begin writing in May.

If you need details, we have close to 40k words in worldbuilding/background/characters/loose plot points already, and we can write on google docs at the same time.

Thanks

[Alpha 360]

Where's the link?

I might want to look into this.

[SiriusRocketry]

20 minutes ago, Alpha 360 said:

Where's the link?

I might want to look into this.

Underneath, it's the thread link.

[SaturnianBlue]

As anyone who has read Imagining a Kerbal Future would know, I've had an idea for a futuristic kerbal story (in production title: the big future story) for quite a long time now. IaKF, which was made to assist this process, is still ongoing, but I do want to get started on the story. I have the general outline, but not much more. 

The story will probably be mostly text, with several screenshots/drawings per chapter.

I sort of have goals for the chapter—they are as follows:

• Try to introduce the reader to the world, without shoving in too much info
• Show the relative emphasis on the Sci of Sci-Fi that this series is aiming for
• Most importantly, get the attention of the reader. 

 

Currently, my main struggles with getting started with the writing are:

Details—I might have a lot of the large-scale stuff, such as the countries in the universe, quite well thought up of, but the normal everyday world in the eyes of the characters is something I struggle with.

    Names—This is something I struggle with. I certainly want to make them meaningful, but I'm not sure how. 

A Hook—I just don't feel that the opening is eye-catching enough. 

In general, I have this feeling of "I don't know how to start". I've been trying now to first organize my ideas about this setting, but with that I'm finding that I don't know where to begin.

If anyone is interesting in checking the incomplete bits I have written down so far, ask me.

Edited March 29, 2018 by SaturnianBlue

[steuben]

Names
For my Greenfields  series if the name is going to be meaningful, which they aren't they're just shout outs to famous NASA folks for the most part, I'll take the name and kerbalize it a bit. Usually slot in a K in the right spot. Outside of that, the usual go to for writing reference has some pointers on theme naming.

 

Details
Let's quote a master talking about a master

Quote

"Robert Heinlein once wrote that the best way to give the flavor of the future is to drop in, without warning, some strange detail. He gives as an example, 'The door dilated open.' Mention it once, and never mention it again, except to satisfy the needs of continuity. And your readers know, from these subtle details, that they aren't exactly dealing with the real world anymore.
— Larry Niven, in his essay "Building The Mote in God's Eye"

It's been a while since I've read the essay itself. But I think it might be a good point to start.  The other place will be to consider things Like Reality Unless Noted, or like game play.

 

Hooks
Hooks are tricky, but can be fun to practice. A book comes to mind "The First Five Pages", ISBN 068485743X or 978-0684857435. The list o' Opening Tropes. But, it will depend on the genre you're writing. 

Quote

"I heard The Demon was spawned by Dakkru, and he lost her favor."  Vey, bunched his face, relaxed, and attempted to clear his mind. "I heard every soul he sent to her, was a failed attempt to return her eye to him." He took a slow deep breath. "My mother said he was strong and gentle, but also seemed weary and sad." He sighed and stood up, surrendering on the day's meditation.

Quote

Ensign Narelle Bernat looked over the top of her console at Captain Máedóc Zosimus. The man stood, arms folded behind his back, in the chaos calmly directing the bridge staff. He had called nuclear fire down on his position, ending the war. She heard that he paid for that with more than his scars.

The hook should hint at the action, adventure, and exploration ahead, and the history behind.

 

Starting and sorting.
Storyboards help. If they are picture storyboards rather than text, they can do double duty as your pic inserts for the chapter(s). As for organizing stuff... You could probably break it down into three sections. 'Verse, the countries, the history, etc. Stuff, the equipment mostly, but buildings as well. Characters, the bios, both quick and long, vital stats, etc.

[SaturnianBlue]

Found a rather promising template for creating a Sci-Fi setting on the Tough SciFi discord. Hope it might come in handy for anyone also trying to write a futuristic KSP series.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4y3pktmxymw7pxu/Creating a Science Fiction Setting.pdf?dl=0)

Edited March 30, 2018 by SaturnianBlue

[VelocityPolaris]

I'd like some help/advice with my story, Past the Haze. I started it, gave up last summer, then, at the beginning of the year, decided to pick it back up again. Looking over the story, it started out as a kudzu plot, but I've figured out a way to eventually incorporate everything into the plot, or at least give the crazier stuff enough justification to handwave. 

So now I generally know where I'm going, I've got plot and I've got logic, but I think the problem is characterisation. I can draw a little bit from what I know about myself, but since my interpersonal intelligence is sadly pretty low, I think almost all of my characters act too much like me. Quoting TV Tropes wiki, mostly logic, dialogue that either consists of dry technobabble or philosophising on a tangent (how does the other hoomins talk?), that sort of thing. So besides acting like me and fitting within a few archetypes, I don't really have a lot of character to give my characters. About 9 chapters with 4 people in an interplanetary spaceship at least managed to flesh out their personalities to something reasonably distinct, but it didn't fix the dialogue problem, and this is going to be a story with lots and lots of characters. Another problem is that I've tried to lampshade, avert, subvert, or defy what I thought to be annoying tropes to the point where it can detract from the story. And then there's the question of how to bring out someone's character without putting people in a life-or-death situation all of the time, or having the main cast be so flawed that they need a walking emotional crutch to keep them from going crazy. And I'm also afraid that the story's becoming too "dark and edgy", which I'd like to get away from.

One thing I have found is that giving someone some quirks gives me like a base to build their character off of, so, uh, could you spare a quirk, brother?

Thanks in advance.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, VelocityPolaris said:

So now I generally know where I'm going, I've got plot and I've got logic, but I think the problem is characterisation. 

Characterization is really tough, especially when you're working from source material in which for most practical purposes the characters are interchangable. Quirks can be a good starting point, but as you've correctly pointed out it can't be the only point. I've certainly played with and lampshaded this: one of my own favorite character arcs started with a certain pilot whose quirk was that he HAD no interesting quirks...and ended in CMOA territory during Kerbfleet's "finest hour".

So, how do you get away from quirks and flaws and goofy accents and make real living characters? One way is to simply let them talk to each other. Not make them, let them. You, the author just imagine them in a situation and let them tell you what they want to say. Your job is to listen, whether or not what they say makes it into the finished story. I can't tell you the number of times that one of my characters surprised me with a new element of their personality that came out unbidden when I just imagined a conversation and listened to it. These little elements build on one another: so if you can get good at imagining your characters speaking freely to each other, bit by bit a complex shape will emerge. Some of my characters have been talking to each other and to me for years now, and if they're any good at this point it's because I've been listening to them, remembering and building all that time. 

 

[steuben]

*rummages around in his library* ah, here we go. From "How to Write a Damn Good Mystery" by James Frey. To précis, have the character write a couple of journal entries about themselves. Though he mentions "The Key: How to Write Damn Good Fiction Using the Power of Myth" in which might have more information on it.

Another way to discover a character's voice, which I think you're looking for, take them right out of context. Forget the story, plot, etc, plop them down around the classic green faux-velvet poker table with the one light illuminating everything, have them spend the night singing karaoke, the weekend fishing and drinking beer, etc. Have them shoot the breeze. It doesn't have to be about things in 'verse, could be about the story, could be about RL, or something else.

For something more structural you may want to head back to tvtropes, Ensembles, specifically the four person groups. For more essay level work there is Develop Character Personality and Make Interesting Characters.

Edited April 3, 2018 by steuben

[Spaceception]

On 3/25/2018 at 1:27 PM, Alpha 360 said:

Where's the link?

I might want to look into this.

Er... were you talking to me?

[Alpha 360]

yes. Actually I was. I should have mentioned you, @Spaceception.

 

[Spaceception]

31 minutes ago, Alpha 360 said:

yes. Actually I was. I should have mentioned you, @Spaceception.

 

Okay

Well, I can't show you the doc, because we're keeping a lot of it close to our chests so to speak; but I guess I can say that it follows a young Teen named Nathan Frost, (And we decided recently it'll follow other characters who will each get chapters in their POV), but he goes to a floating (In air) school called the Academy, where he learns how to use Mana (Or magic).
Now, in our universe (Or, really, multiverse), everyone knows mana is a thing; there's no statute of secrecy or anything related to magic. Everyone knows it exists whether they have it or not. And it's a pivotal part of society, and the reason technology is so advanced (Because there's people called 'technomages' who use Mana to power technology).
And behind the scenes, there seems to be someone gaining power, but no one knows who it is, or who's involved, but it's causing unrest in some places around the world.

Is Nathan 'The chosen one'? No, he's just someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time (Or something similar), and decides to help. And the other characters we're following in various situations will eventually all meet up in one way or another. One character is a politician who feels someone is fishy, but no one believes him, 2 are twins and are the same age as Nathan, and 1 or 2 more main characters as well.
It will be an extensive series too. So it'll go from middle grade, to young adult; and maybe even touch adult, or have themes from that age group.

The book is Science fantasy, and I also believe we want some mystery and/or thriller aspects too.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Spaceception

[VelocityPolaris]

Hi, got another writing question. How does one write, uh, emotion? Unfortunately, I'm usually feeling "meh, okay, I guess" most of the time, and so this gets reflected into my characters. The problem is when they're in a situation which should probably elicit an emotional reaction, I've not much idea of what to write besides "ARGH!" or "WHOO!" How do you know when a character should, exhibit the state known as "emotion" (besides obvious things like the spaceship exploding)? How do you write it, especially when their behaviour isn't supposed to be a grandiose display?

Edited April 5, 2018 by VelocityPolaris

[KSK]

I think this is one of those things that makes creative writing an art or a craft rather than a science, so I imagine you'll get quite a few different answers here. With that said, I'll give it a punt.

You could try using actions or short descriptions of body language, either on their own or along with any dialogue you're including. If Jeb is sitting in a meeting paying more attention to his coffee cup or the view out of the window than whoever's talking, what does that tell you about his state of mind? How about if he's sitting forward in his chair, eyes fixed on the speaker? What about if he's sitting back, legs crossed, watching the ebb and flow of conversation around the table?

If things are getting heated he might scowl at somebody. His verbal delivery might change or he might start using sarcasm.

"Yes - and an absolutely marvellous job you made of it," Jeb snapped.

Maybe throw in some punctuation there too:

"Yes - and an absolutely marvellous job you made of it!" Jeb snapped.

I'm personally not a great fan of using too many 'weird speech words' - plain old 'said' is usually good enough but changing that up occasionally can add emphasis.

One other thing - and as my good editors will tell you, this is definitely a case of 'do as I say not what I do' - try to minimise use of adverbs. Don't tell me that Jeb said something angrily - show me! Have him slamming his fist on the table. Have him jabbing a finger at somebody or jumping to his feet and getting in somebody's face. Or maybe have him go very cold and controlled, only his blazing eyes giving away exactly how angry he is. OK that last one is a bit cliche but hopefully you get the idea.

For what it's worth, strong emotion is something I struggle to write too. I'm never entirely sure that I'm not slipping over the line into melodrama.

 

Incidentally, I sometimes find it helpful to act out various gestures or body postures and see if they fit the mood I'm trying to convey. This is possibly a technique to use in private though.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by KSK

[steuben]

Body language mostly. This is one of those you have to know your characters and their quirks.

 

 

 

[Alpha 360]

I was wondering if people here have got tips on writing professional prose? Prose is one of my weak points in writing, so can anyone give me some tips?

[steuben]

Grammar, spelling, and don't use five dollar words.

Do you have something a bit more focused of a question?

[KSK]

I had to go away and check that I had my definitions right but 'prose' covers a lot of ground. Taking a dictionary definition, prose is: 

"the ordinary form of spoken or written language, without metrical structure, as distinguished from poetry or verse."

So, yes - as @steuben said, it would be good if you could narrow the question down a bit.

In the meantime, I've heard a lot of good things about The Elements of Style by Strunk & White. It's not without its critics either mind, but even those critics seem to agree that it's a book that every writer should read. Sadly, I'm not yet one of those writers (although I do have a copy), so I can't tell you much more about it.

[Alpha 360]

I was wondering more about tips on precise prose for story writing. I need to know how to recognize excess words, phrases and sentence structure. Also just some pointers for passive sentences and how to defeat them. Just sending me to a website will be fine. 

Happy Explosions!

Edited April 9, 2018 by Alpha 360

[steuben]

Sounds like you're after editing advice.

"Self-Editing for Fiction Writers", isbn: 978-0060545697//0060545690 might be a good start. It was one of my first in the genre. I can't point to many websites. most of <bayou drawl> my learnin' is done in dis 'ere new fangled reel wurld </bayou drawl>. But, Writer's Digest has a fair bit of stuff on line as well.

As for recognizing the passive voice. If you see <to be> <verb>, it is generally the passive voice. To tame it drop the <to be> and rework the sentence accordingly.

 

[KSK]

38 minutes ago, Alpha 360 said:

I was wondering more about tips on precise prose for story writing. I need to know how to recognize excess words, phrases and sentence structure. Also just some pointers for passive sentences and how to defeat them. Just sending me to a website will be fine. 

Happy Explosions!

Hooo boy - I'm still working on that myself. I have a terrible fondness for the passive voice (mostly because it works well for formal report writing and such - which I do quite a bit of at work) and have to stop it leaking through where it's not needed.

[Guest]

On 4/9/2018 at 1:30 PM, Alpha 360 said:

I was wondering more about tips on precise prose for story writing. I need to know how to recognize excess words, phrases and sentence structure. Also just some pointers for passive sentences and how to defeat them. Just sending me to a website will be fine. 

If you're just asking for the accepted rules of grammar, that's best handled in English class and by paying close attention to the good published prose you read. If you immerse yourself in good writing you will tend to know by feel what's right and what's wrong, even if you can't cite the letter of the law that makes it so.

Anything beyond that is impossible to answer, because every writer has a different style--what counts as an extra word for Hemingway is not an extra word for Austen, or for Joyce. And if you're still asking questions about the rules, then--sorry--you probably haven't reached the point where you have a style yet. 

Read a lot of stuff. Decide what you like. Read what you like enough to understand what it is you don't like about it. Write your own stuff based on the stuff you like, except replacing what you don't like about it with something better. Read your own stuff. Read it closely enough to understand what you like and don't like about it. Write more stuff.