A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Ten Key]

This was an interesting read. It's a blog post on adjective order.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37285796

[Andem]

1 hour ago, Ten Key said:

This was an interesting read. It's a blog post on adjective order.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37285796

Y'know, I've never really noticed that!

[Just Jim]

2 hours ago, Ten Key said:

This was an interesting read. It's a blog post on adjective order.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37285796

Oh wow... that's really fascinating! I never really considered it before, but I do believe the author is right.

[Kerbinchaser]

1 hour ago, Andem said:

Y'know, I've never really noticed that!

Wow Andem. One rep away from 1000!

[Andem]

39 minutes ago, Lo Var Lachland said:

Wow Andem. One rep away from 1000!

Oh my god, you're right... Jeez... 

[DMSP]

Hey all writers! I've never really looked at this thread before, but it seems like there are some great people here.

I'm wondering, would you guys be ok with reading the first three chapters of the Second part of my story and telling me what you think? I would love love criticism.

Thanks guys. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by DMSP

[Andem]

https://kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/kerbal-chroma

 

You're welcome. 

[BT Industries]

I'd be surprised if this hasn't already been brought to your attention somewhere in this thread,

But if not and for all the new people...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLduA6tsl3gygXJbq_iQ_5h2yri4WL6zsS

Check out this playlist!!!

Its amazing and really helpful for making really realistic worlds

-Cheers Ben

[Andem]

I want to ask for your opinions on this before I really commit to it. I want to add some context to my stories' Kerbin, from a different perspective. Something similar of Ussari Space Program to Whispers of the Kraken, and I wasn't sure If I should actually go for it. So, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this one.

 

If I do it, spoilers (potentially?) in the spoiler:

Spoiler

As of late, I've become a huge nerd for the First World War, and to get an idea of the format, check out "The Great War" on youtube.

 

[adsii1970]

15 minutes ago, Andem said:

I want to ask for your opinions on this before I really commit to it. I want to add some context to my stories' Kerbin, from a different perspective. Something similar of Ussari Space Program to Whispers of the Kraken, and I wasn't sure If I should actually go for it. So, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this one.

[Edited by adsii1970 for content]

Here's the thing... are you writing for your audience or for yourself? I'm not meaning to sound flippant by any means, but write what you would want to read and what captivates your attention. If you felt pulled to do this because of readership... don't do it. You'll end up not being very satisfied with your writing. It will be a literal hell trying to write each chapter and soon your readers will pick up on that. In the end, it will not be worth your efforts.

If you write your story mainly for yourself, then it will be apparent from the reader's perspective that you enjoy the writing. That enjoyment makes it through to the reader, who in turn, will come back to see where the story goes. This is the approach I am taking with my project.

[Andem]

1 minute ago, adsii1970 said:

Here's the thing... are you writing for your audience or for yourself? I'm not meaning to sound flippant by any means, but write what you would want to read and what captivates your attention. If you felt pulled to do this because of readership... don't do it. You'll end up not being very satisfied with your writing. It will be a literal hell trying to write each chapter and soon your readers will pick up on that. In the end, it will not be worth your efforts.

If you write your story mainly for yourself, then it will be apparent from the reader's perspective that you enjoy the writing. That enjoyment makes it through to the reader, who in turn, will come back to see where the story goes. This is the approach I am taking with my project.

That's actually exactly why I was considering working on this on the side. I felt like some of my early decisions have made the current writing almost like a chore rather than a pleasure. I don't want to stop writing my main story at all, but I do want to explore something a tad bit less personal as it is (IMO) easier to write wildly like that. I prrobably will do it, unless there are any objections/suggestions?

[adsii1970]

3 minutes ago, Andem said:

That's actually exactly why I was considering working on this on the side. I felt like some of my early decisions have made the current writing almost like a chore rather than a pleasure. I don't want to stop writing my main story at all, but I do want to explore something a tad bit less personal as it is (IMO) easier to write wildly like that. I prrobably will do it, unless there are any objections/suggestions?

Then take your main story and begin to shift it. Introduce new characters that can become the focus. Create a new sub-plot that soon becomes the main plot. Unless you've limited yourself on characters, as I have with Kerny being the main one, then there are a number of literary devices you could use to bring your work back into focus.

 

[Just Jim]

19 minutes ago, Andem said:

That's actually exactly why I was considering working on this on the side. I felt like some of my early decisions have made the current writing almost like a chore rather than a pleasure. I don't want to stop writing my main story at all, but I do want to explore something a tad bit less personal as it is (IMO) easier to write wildly like that. I probably will do it, unless there are any objections/suggestions?

The biggest concern I see is you'll have to be very, very careful about the political end of the subject you mention, and handle that aspect with kid gloves so you don't violate any forum rules. Other than that, if it's something you want to explore, then by all means go for it. 

[Andem]

2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

The biggest concern I see is you'll have to be very, very careful about the political end of the subject you mention, and handle that aspect with kid gloves so you don't violate any forum rules. Other than that, if it's something you want to explore, then by all means go for it. 

That was also a consideration. Lots of things happened that are most certainly not suitable for the forums, but I also find it important that my Kerbin has a little darkness in it's history too.

[Spaceception]

Does anyone have any tips for writing good conversations that can go into some of the details, without going on forever?

[Just Jim]

9 minutes ago, Andem said:

That was also a consideration. Lots of things happened that are most certainly not suitable for the forums, but I also find it important that my Kerbin has a little darkness in it's history too.

I see no problem with that. Y'all know I love to bask in the darkness now and again in mine. In my opinion, you can't really have a happy ending if you don't have something to be happy about. And this means you'll probably have to get dark somewhere along the line, depending on the story line.

 

[Andem]

9 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I see no problem with that. Y'all know I love to bask in the darkness now and again in mine. In my opinion, you can't really have a happy ending if you don't have something to be happy about. And this means you'll probably have to get dark somewhere along the line, depending on the story line.

 

And that's going into my sig. 

[Just Jim]

35 minutes ago, Andem said:

And that's going into my sig. 

OMG, thank you, I'm honored!  

Edited September 21, 2016 by Just Jim

[Andem]

1 hour ago, Spaceception said:

Does anyone have any tips for writing good conversations that can go into some of the details, without going on forever?

Usually depends on how much exposition is being relayed during the scene... But typically, it helps to pepper in the slightest amount of slang to make the conversation feel a little more fluid.

 

Big note! Slang != Jargon! Jargon will achieve the opposite effect.

[UnusualAttitude]

3 hours ago, Andem said:

I want to ask for your opinions on this before I really commit to it. I want to add some context to my stories' Kerbin, from a different perspective. Something similar of Ussari Space Program to Whispers of the Kraken, and I wasn't sure If I should actually go for it. So, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this one.

 

2 hours ago, Just Jim said:

The biggest concern I see is you'll have to be very, very careful about the political end of the subject you mention, and handle that aspect with kid gloves so you don't violate any forum rules. Other than that, if it's something you want to explore, then by all means go for it. 

If you want to add depth to your (back)story, and since you mention the works of @CatastrophicFailure, then satire is probably the safest way to do this. As you have probably noticed, he evokes politics and clashes between cultures and ideals all the time, but he gets away with it (and cannot be faulted by the forum regulations) because none of it is real, and any resemblances to real people/countries/things in his stories are purely coincidental (of course...).

Spoiler

I would recommend the final Black Adder series as excellent inspiration for a satirical view of the Great War...

...but this may not be what you had in mind. You can write about War just as you can write about any other grave or serious subject in many different ways. It can be sad, tragic, factual, satirical or even down right funny if you use the right tone. Respect all the participants in your fictional conflict, or make fun of them all in an equal fashion if that's the tone you're looking for. 

 

[UnusualAttitude]

2 hours ago, Spaceception said:

Does anyone have any tips for writing good conversations that can go into some of the details, without going on forever?

Indirect dialogue...?

[CatastrophicFailure]

4 hours ago, Andem said:

I want to ask for your opinions on this before I really commit to it. I want to add some context to my stories' Kerbin, from a different perspective. Something similar of Ussari Space Program to Whispers of the Kraken, and I wasn't sure If I should actually go for it. So, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this one.

 

 

 

Seems I'm a bit late to the party again despite my burning ears. It does add a certain kind of 'relief' to have that alternate perspective. It helps keep things fresh and occasionally throws in useful plot devices. But as others have said, do it because you want to, or it will make the chore worse. Twice the creativity = twice the effort, and USP is beginning to slow for me (literally and metaphorically) now that things aren't as 'connected' as they were in the beginning.

Your choice of historical inspiration certain gives a lot to work with, just remember to give it a uniquely Kerbal bent.  

 

3 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I see no problem with that. Y'all know I love to bask in the darkness now and again in mine. In my opinion, you can't really have a happy ending if you don't have something to be happy about. And this means you'll probably have to get dark somewhere along the line, depending on the story line.

 

This. Conflict drives plot. Tis worth noting that @KSK's work is an awesome example of how to have conflict without an actual villain, which is very hard to do but might fit right in with the varied perspectives of war. 

 

Ack, out of time, thoughts unfinished. 

[KSK]

3 hours ago, Spaceception said:

Does anyone have any tips for writing good conversations that can go into some of the details, without going on forever?

Oh sure - give us an easy one why don't you.  

I like writing dialogue and in all honesty probably rely on it a bit too much for laying down exposition. Which means I'm maybe not the best person to be answering your question but if you don't mind me throwing some ideas out for discussion, lets have at it!

First - can we get rid of the conversation altogether? The detail that your characters were going to be talking about - can we show that some other way. Show not tell, in other words.

Second - why are we including these details? Are they driving a plot point? Are they adding colour and flavour to the story? Or are they just you, the author, going "well I researched the mulch out of this detail so you'd better believe it's all going in the story."?

If you're including detail to drive a plot point, go for it. That detail probably needs to be there. If you're adding flavour - be careful. A bit of salt in a dish can really make it special but too much salt can make it unappetising at best and inedible at worst. If you're just showing off your research - probably best to dial that detail back a bit.  Incidentally, I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of that last one on occasion and I know that I've over-seasoned some of my work, especially some of the earlier chapters. Knowing how much detail to include is a real trick and (I believe) only really comes with practice.

OK, so we really need this conversation and we really need these details. How to set about writing that conversation down? I think my big tip would be: write to the characters and not the reader. If you've got two engineers talking about a point of engineering, then going right back to first principles for the sake of exposition just looks clunky. On the other hand, if you've got a character who's job it is to ask questions, then it can work. I use that a couple of times in First Flight - I've written in a popsci level science and engineering TV show called Engines and Engineers. Naturally, they sometimes have guest kerbonauts on the show, for example to commentate on a particular mission or give an update on the Space Program as a whole. The TV presenter is there to ask the layman level questions and the kerbonaut is there to answer them. Used sparingly I don't think it's a bad way of wedging in some exposition here and there.

My other tip would probably be to read your dialogue aloud (or at least mumble it to yourself  ) If you're starting to sound as if you've swallowed an encyclopedia with a thesaurus chaser, then you might want to rework that dialogue to be a bit less formal. Or, as Andem pointed out, a scattering of slang or a few colloquialisms can do wonders for a conversation. Colloquialisms are also a great way of doing a little impromptu worldbuilding on the side!

Just my thoughts anyway - like I said at the start I'm maybe not the best person to be getting advice from on this one - looking forward to hearing what everyone else says.

Edited September 21, 2016 by KSK

[Just Jim]

1 minute ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

This. Conflict drives plot. Tis worth noting that @KSK's work is an awesome example of how to have conflict without an actual villain, which is very hard to do but might fit right in with the varied perspectives of war. 

Very good example. When I said dark earlier, I meant it in a very broad sense, not just a villain. Any sort of conflict, like you point out, or obstacle or something along those lines that the hero's have to overcome will work. 

[adsii1970]

14 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Very good example. When I said dark earlier, I meant it in a very broad sense, not just a villain. Any sort of conflict, like you point out, or obstacle or something along those lines that the hero's have to overcome will work. 

Exactly this! In mine, Kerny is simply a participant along for the ride. There's not a villain in his story, but something dark that peeks through the story line. I have tried to interject (whether it is successful or not, I do not know) a menacing but unknown darkness... monoliths, UFOs, and soon, many other things will hint at something that I'm hoping the reader notices but cannot put all the pieces together at this time.

Another thing I would recommend - don't force the story. Let the characters tell their own story and see where it goes. You'll be surprised at how easy it makes your writing AND you'll enjoy watching the story unfold.