[Solved] Open letter to the Cloud-making community

[Sigma88]

​Since when I started making mods for ksp (very little addition, mind you) I've noticed how many followers the major cloud mods have.

I've also noticed how none of those mods are particularly user-friendly, and also there is little to no space for compatibility.

I personally had a very hard time when I tried to make a certain cloud pack for a certain planets mod compatible with all the major cloud mods that are out there.

In that occasion I had to come up with a very intricate way to check which cloud mod the user have in his/her install and change the mod's behaviour to fit the correct clouds pack.

This is why I would like to see a more modular version of all the major cloud mods out there. I feel like the effort required for each single modder would be very limited but at the same time, the community would benefit a lot by those kind of changes.

Now, I don't have time to do all of this myself. This is why I'm writing this post.

I'd like to hear the opinion of both modders and users on this point and at the same time, offer my help to anyone who would like to embark on such a project, I've learned a lot developing the compatibility patches for OPM Clouds and I feel like that kind of approach could be used to allow for a better overall experience.

thank you for reading this

Sigma

---

I've found a way to solve the compatibility issues. I've already messaged rbray, if he is interested this may be the end of all compatibility problems.

The solution would require small additions to EVE and any EVE-based cloud mod (AVPEoO, AVPInt, KSPRC, AVG....)

so a concerted effort will be needed. nothing really major tho. it's as simple as using a different folder for the textures (instead of everybody using BoulderCo) and add a few lines into the cfgs.

I decided to drop this, no reason in going further if nobody cares.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Sigma88

[rbray89]

WIP EVE should address some of the user-friendliness. The plan is to split the binaries and default "cloud pack" up so that there won't be any more of this confusion.

[Sigma88]

WIP EVE should address some of the user-friendliness. The plan is to split the binaries and default "cloud pack" up so that there won't be any more of this confusion.

great, feel free to pm me if you think you could use the feedback I have from my experience with current EVE.

since EVE it's the root of all cloud mods I think this will help a lot

[Nansuchao]

In my opinion, this is the best moment to talk about this. Actually there are just two great visual mod, and just one seems really active, the beautiful Renaissance Compilation from Proot. Astronomers visual pack is no more updated from 0.25, and the others are more or less dead in 1.0 (Better Atmospheres and Edge of Oblivion).

Sincerely, as a user, it's scaring try to understand which mod goes with which pack and wich mod is compatible with which pack. Often the install of such mods is a stressing moment, cause it's really easy to break something in the process. A little example is the old but good EVE. In most cases, if someone just try to install the mod, he has a really weird effect in game and need a pack to obtain something usable. With the old version of OPM clouds (from you Sigma) you had to create a different folder for every pack. I can just imagine how hard it was for you.

It will be very good if, as you Sigma88 ask, these mod would be more modular and user friendly.

The new Eve-Wip seems much better from this point of view and I hope that other visual mods will follow the same way.

[Sigma88]

In my opinion, this is the best moment to talk about this. Actually there are just two great visual mod, and just one seems really active, the beautiful Renaissance Compilation from Proot. Astronomers visual pack is no more updated from 0.25, and the others are more or less dead in 1.0 (Better Atmospheres and Edge of Oblivion).

Sincerely, as a user, it's scaring try to understand which mod goes with which pack and wich mod is compatible with which pack. Often the install of such mods is a stressing moment, cause it's really easy to break something in the process. A little example is the old but good EVE. In most cases, if someone just try to install the mod, he has a really weird effect in game and need a pack to obtain something usable. With the old version of OPM clouds (from you Sigma) you had to create a different folder for every pack. I can just imagine how hard it was for you.

It will be very good if, as you Sigma88 ask, these mod would be more modular and user friendly.

The new Eve-Wip seems much better from this point of view and I hope that other visual mods will follow the same way.

to be completely clear on the subject, the cloud mods for OPM was developed by Eleusis La Arwal

I just worked on merging all the different download in a single archive, easy to install and more importantly easy to uninstall

Eleusis was so kind to give me the status of "collaborator/developer" instead of just credit my contribution.

[Nansuchao]

Yes, I'm sorry for my mistake. I just wrote in a single breath...

[Sigma88]

Yes, I'm sorry for my mistake. I just wrote in a single breath...

don't worry

and thanks for the support!

here you can read me ramble about the potentiality of a more modular system

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100857-WIP-EVE-%28Environmental-Visual-Enhancements%29-Overhaul?p=2175492&viewfull=1#post2175492

Edited September 2, 2015 by Sigma88

[Eleusis La Arwall]

No problem, we both put quite some work and and long evenings into this project. I support the idea, better compatibility is always nice

Last time I checked EVE WIP was a few month ago. I'll have a look into it within the next days.

[HafCoJoe]

This sounds like a great idea! Best of luck Sigma.

[Xemrael]

I think that Squad really needs to start working on clouds and weather for KSP, that is a huge thing missing now, at least, thats my point of view on what KSP is missing right now...

[Alshain]

In my opinion, this is the best moment to talk about this. Actually there are just two great visual mod, and just one seems really active, the beautiful Renaissance Compilation from Proot. Astronomers visual pack is no more updated from 0.25, and the others are more or less dead in 1.0 (Better Atmospheres and Edge of Oblivion).

They may not be updated, but Astronomer's Visual Pack: Edge of Oblivion still works perfectly fine and to date is the best mirror of Earth there is. No other mod has really done clouds from space right, including it's successor, Interstellar.

[Sigma88]

They may not be updated, but Astronomer's Visual Pack: Edge of Oblivion still works perfectly fine and to date is the best mirror of Earth there is. No other mod has really done clouds from space right, including it's successor, Interstellar.

not to detract anything from AVP. but EVE is doing clouds. AVP "just" uses EVE to load different clouds. unless they have modified the .dll files, in which case I've never found that written anywhere

The problem is, everybody is using a different clouds pack (EVE7-4, AVPEoO, AVPInt, KSPRC, AVG....)

And if you are a planet maker you can't really add an easy option for clouds compatibility. You need to do really weird config magic like I did for Eleusis' OPMClouds.

anyway...

I've found a way to solve the compatibility issues. I've already messaged rbray, if he is interested this may be the end of all compatibility problems.

The solution would require small additions to EVE and any EVE-based cloud mod (AVPEoO, AVPInt, KSPRC, AVG....)

so a concerted effort will be needed. nothing really major tho. it's as simple as using a different folder for the textures (instead of everybody using BoulderCo) and add a few lines into the cfgs.

if, on the other hand, rbray is not interested... I will drop this, no reason in going further if nobody cares.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Sigma88

[Alshain]

not to detract anything from AVP. but EVE is doing clouds. AVP "just" uses EVE to load different clouds. unless they have modified the .dll files, in which case I've never found that written anywhere

The problem is, everybody is using a different clouds pack (EVE7-4, AVPEoO, AVPInt, KSPRC, AVG....)

And if you are a planet maker you can't really add an easy option for clouds compatibility. You need to do really weird config magic like I did for Eleusis' OPMClouds.

anyway...

I've found a way to solve the compatibility issues. I've already messaged rbray, if he is interested this may be the end of all compatibility problems.

The solution would require small additions to EVE and any EVE-based cloud mod (AVPEoO, AVPInt, KSPRC, AVG....)

so a concerted effort will be needed. nothing really major tho. it's as simple as using a different folder for the textures (instead of everybody using BoulderCo) and add a few lines into the cfgs.

if, on the other hand, rbray is not interested... I will drop this, no reason in going further if nobody cares.

The problem there is Astronomer hasn't been around lately, even if he was I don't know that he would go back to do EoO. Even worse, it is All Right Reserved, so you can't redistribute it.

If EVE gets an update that breaks AVP EoO, I'll just keep using the old EVE and that doesn't help your cause. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels that way. The only other fix is if someone comes up with another mod that has an Earth-looking Kerbin. I spend 75% of my time looking at Kerbin from space, Kerbin is the most important. Having the others look nice is great, but if Kerbin doesn't look good then you might as well not bother. I haven't seen any other cloud pack for EVE that makes Kerbin look like Earth (the clouds are usually way too thin, like Interstellar or Renaissance). Same reason I don't use Scatter, it makes the planet look awful from space, almost Cyan instead of Blue.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Alshain

[Sigma88]

The problem there is Astronomer hasn't been around lately, even if he was I don't know that he would go back to do EoO. Even worse, it is All Right Reserved, so you can't redistribute it.

If EVE gets an update that breaks AVP EoO, I'll just keep using the old EVE and that doesn't help your cause. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels that way. The only other fix is if someone comes up with another mod that has an Earth-looking Kerbin. I spend 75% of my time looking at Kerbin from space, Kerbin is the most important. Having the others look nice is great, but if Kerbin doesn't look good then you might as well not bother. I haven't seen any other cloud pack for EVE that makes Kerbin look like Earth (the clouds are usually way too thin, like Interstellar or Renaissance). Same reason I don't use Scatter, it makes the planet look awful from space, almost Cyan instead of Blue.

The problem I was talking about is that every "cloud pack" out there either redistributes EVE changing its files (KSPRC) or requires the installation of EVE and then overwrites EVE textures and configs (AVP, AVG).

This makes it (almost) impossible for me, or every other modder, to check which cloud pack the user has installed. so you end up having to maintain 5 different downloads, one for each cloud pack. Like Eleusis was doing for OPM clouds before I gave him some help to merge everything into a single download.

The fix would have been very simple, it would have required no more than 10 lines of code on each clouds pack.

the older cloud packs are not being updated, so they will never get a compatibility boost. and I cannot see the new versions (EVE WIP and KSPRC 2.0) changing attitude towards this problem. since I've been asking an nobody ever cared.

but it's fine. I see absolutely no reason for a whole community to change its approach to modding just because there is one crazy guy asking for something that ultimately nobody else cares about.

[Alshain]

I understand the complication, but KSP loads all textures. So if you don't overwrite or delete them, they still get loaded even if you don't use them. I'm not sure if there is a way to circumvent that. Maybe if you explained the idea a little more.

[hypervelocity]

I wish you would keep this going; IMHO it is a great effort to alleviate the stress of installing these visual mods, specially when playing RSS+RO!!!