tater Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Berger agrees: By late summer I think he means July 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Heheh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicTech Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 hour ago, tater said: Heheh I hope they mean January 26th (1/26) and not July 21st (6/21) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_name Posted May 26, 2023 Share Posted May 26, 2023 Apparently parachutes are still an issue for certification, per NASA safety panel, they are skeptical about July launch date and overall readiness for flight https://spacenews.com/nasa-safety-panel-skeptical-of-starliner-readiness-for-crewed-flight/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Officially delayed. Not just the parachute links, but wiring harnesses covered in flammable tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 presser live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) This is… wow. How many wiring harnesses need to be fixed? How many miles of harness? Edited June 2, 2023 by StrandedonEarth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) Tape on wiring harnesses? That seems odd to me given the budget and the problems tape can present when trying to troubleshoot and find breaks in wires. Tape on wire bundles just hides problems in my experience, like discoloration from overheating, insulation damage, etc. I don't even tape wire bundles in my old pickup truck. Surely there a space grade zip tie, or equivalent, by now Edited June 2, 2023 by darthgently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meecrob Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, darthgently said: Surely there a space grade zip tie, or equivalent, by now It's space-grade tape...seriously. Its still kinda funny, but its tested so the adhesive works over a broader range of temperature and stuff like that. Its like a premium version of the aluminum tape they use on commercial aircraft...though, don't quote me on if this space tape is aluminum, I'm just making a comparison. Also, there is a serious concern for things flailing about on the spacecraft...they cannot rely on 1g to settle objects so they restrain them, sometimes with tape. Edit: crap, I totally missed your point..my best guess is that tape is either lighter than other options or is easier for something designated important...like its too much work to go get clippers to cut a zip tie when you can just rip the tape off...for what reason? I would love to find out. I agree with tape being seemingly an odd choice. Edited June 2, 2023 by Meecrob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 47 minutes ago, Meecrob said: It's space-grade tape...seriously. Its still kinda funny, but its tested so the adhesive works over a broader range of temperature and stuff like that. Its like a premium version of the aluminum tape they use on commercial aircraft...though, don't quote me on if this space tape is aluminum, I'm just making a comparison. Also, there is a serious concern for things flailing about on the spacecraft...they cannot rely on 1g to settle objects so they restrain them, sometimes with tape. Edit: crap, I totally missed your point..my best guess is that tape is either lighter than other options or is easier for something designated important...like its too much work to go get clippers to cut a zip tie when you can just rip the tape off...for what reason? I would love to find out. I agree with tape being seemingly an odd choice. I've since learned the tape is glass fiber based so may ironically be meant as a firebreak of sorts? Not sure, but if the issue is flammability, then it would be ironic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meecrob Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) Thats interesting if true: flame retardant tape.Maybe its more effective? Glass has a high melting point? Thats my guess. Edited June 2, 2023 by Meecrob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monophonic Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 3 hours ago, darthgently said: I've since learned the tape is glass fiber based so may ironically be meant as a firebreak of sorts? Not sure, but if the issue is flammability, then it would be ironic Fiberglass tape is commonly used in construction to cover seams and patch holes in plasterboard. It helps keep the filling putty in place and gives strength to the patch. Someone may have been trying to save money or just did not understand the difference between construction and spacecraft tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Apparently it's a tape commonly used in spaceflight, including on the ISS. The issue wasn't known until now and this could have repercussions beyond Starliner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Steve Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 This reminds me a bit of the "Whoops, it turns out that titanium is flammable under these conditions" thing that Dragon had back in the day. It should be simpler, though possibly more annoying, than that to fix, depending on how much stuff they have to rip out to get to all of the tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) Since glass fiber doesn't burn, it must be the binder or adhesive that is the issue. I wonder if the flammability goes down as outgassing of volatiles goes down over time. Hopefully it is something tapers into a safe enough zone given time so the ISS is fine and Starliner and other new builds maybe just need time. But if it isn't volatiles, maybe a spray on fire retardant over layer could be applied (after enough outgassing, or permeable to outgassing) to get within safety margins. Which would still be a major activity Edited June 2, 2023 by darthgently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 It seems the parachute system problem is that they had less strength margin than they understood on their lines, which could be a problem if they lost one chute and thus had higher loads on the remaining chute lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barzon Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 5 hours ago, darthgently said: Since glass fiber doesn't burn, it must be the binder or adhesive that is the issue. I wonder if the flammability goes down as outgassing of volatiles goes down over time. Hopefully it is something tapers into a safe enough zone given time so the ISS is fine and Starliner and other new builds maybe just need time. But if it isn't volatiles, maybe a spray on fire retardant over layer could be applied (after enough outgassing, or permeable to outgassing) to get within safety margins. Which would still be a major activity It's the adhesive. Also, I'm pretty sure this is the tape used: https://www.nitto.com/us/en/others/products/file/datasheet/PDS_NA_Glass_Cloth_Tape_P-213LW_012020_EN.pdf http:// https://www.boeingdistribution.com/product/PRESSURE+SENSITIVE+ADHESIVE+TAPE/P-213LW-WHITE-2IN-36YD/P-213LW-WHITE-2IN-36YD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 On 5/26/2023 at 10:52 PM, insert_name said: Apparently parachutes are still an issue for certification, per NASA safety panel, they are skeptical about July launch date and overall readiness for flight https://spacenews.com/nasa-safety-panel-skeptical-of-starliner-readiness-for-crewed-flight/ Why not test it a lot using boilerplate like space race people did it and SpaceX now. Parachute deployment is something you can not computer simulate I think. Packing parachutes is an skill with qualifications for very good reasons. And if your life depend on it you want someone very qualified to pack it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, magnemoe said: Why not test it a lot using boilerplate like space race people did it and SpaceX now. They did. However, if I understand the report correctly, they discovered that they had a problem with that data and had misunderstood the safety margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: They did. However, if I understand the report correctly, they discovered that they had a problem with that data and had misunderstood the safety margin. OK get it, and it might be testing conditions like wind speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, magnemoe said: OK get it, and it might be testing conditions like wind speed. From what I read, it was an instrumentation problem. The instruments did not correctly capture the load on the lines. Or maybe it was the material lab testing on the lines that did not correctly measure their strength. Sounded like something like that. Anyway, they now calculate that they have insufficient safety margin in the event that they lose one chute and must take extra load on the others. (Which, I note, they actually did have happen on one of their drop tests, so this must be a margin problem rather than a for-sure-failure problem.) Edited June 2, 2023 by mikegarrison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, mikegarrison said: From what I read, it was an instrumentation problem. The instruments did not correctly capture the load on the lines. Or maybe it was the material lab testing on the lines that did not correctly measure their strength. Sounded like something like that. Anyway, they now calculate that they have insufficient safety margin in the event that they lose one chute and must take extra load on the others. (Which, I note, they actually did have happen on one of their drop tests, so this must be a margin problem rather than a for-sure-failure problem.) Seems like that should be a straightforward fix... presumably they implement it on a dummy test object they used for other tests and try it a few times? SpaceX had to do something like that with their chutes as I recall. NASA wanted a bunch of test drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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