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Enceladus has a global underground ocean!

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Didn't they ping radar through 67p between Philae and Rosetta to test it's composition? If that can be done, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to adapt that into a communication set up(It probably already exists). On is 1; off is zero. Might be slow(there's no hurry with robots), but this is as basic as it gets. I'm sure there are plenty of optimizations that can be(have been) done by minds much smarter than I.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONSERT

Edited by SuperFastJellyfish

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If we use the cable as baggers said (I imagine is the version from the submarine carrying its own cable, and only needs one) letting the hole seal behind.

Then in case the cable gets cut by ice movement, it will be nice to have an emergency procedure to melt its way back as lordferret said.

But the cable needs to be strong and elastic to not be cut so easy. But if the sub needs to carry the same cable to avoid get stuck, not sure how it will be able to do it with so many km of cable.

Those are possibilities, but it needs to be an easy way to connect with the surface.

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Didn't they ping radar through 67p between Philae and Rosetta to test it's composition? If that can be done, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to adapt that into a communication set up(It probably already exists). On is 1; off is zero. Might be slow(there's no hurry with robots), but this is as basic as it gets. I'm sure there are plenty of optimizations that can be(have been) done by minds much smarter than I.

Not sure, I not familiar with that test...

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If we use the cable as baggers said (I imagine is the version from the submarine carrying its own cable, and only needs one) letting the hole seal behind.

Then in case the cable gets cut by ice movement, it will be nice to have an emergency procedure to melt its way back as lordferret said.

But the cable needs to be strong and elastic to not be cut so easy. But if the sub needs to carry the same cable to avoid get stuck, not sure how it will be able to do it with so many km of cable.

A strong cable from surface to ocean, and a optic fiber for underwater, maybe? (the same optic fiber wire we use for wire-guided missiles should be fine?)

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Revival!!

I didn't see posts about this, but what could life under the surface look like? Would be be extremely similar to possible life on Europa? Or would it be completely different?

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There's also one on europa. I did a group project on it. Mars is ok, but has no water. It does have an atmosphere to protect from radiation. Sorta. 

Europa and Enceladus have water, but also lots more radiation. Heat is partially an issue, but there's tidal heating. The radiation is the biggest problem. The soulution is to live under the ice, which block the radiation.

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do we need a cable? can we do some kind of vlf transmission. vlf would require a huge antennea, probibly in orbit, and would use a lot of power, but could penetrate ice and water. possibly even accoustic transmission. underwater acoustic communications is an established technology, used by divers, scientists, and the military. you would just need enough cable to get through the ice, and once you strike ocean, you just anchor your drill in place and deploy your rov and an acoustic transceiver. the rov would need to be semi autonomous, be able to stay in range of the transceiver (should reach pretty far), and avoid alien sharks.

 

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On 9/16/2015 at 5:19 PM, LordFerret said:

With the ice crust estimated to be 30 to 40 kilometers thick, we won't be visiting that ocean anytime soon. Very interesting though.

It's less thick than Europa's. We'll probably drill deep into Enceledus' crust before Europa's

On 9/16/2015 at 6:26 AM, AngelLestat said:

Everybody knew about a global ocean underneath the ice. There was not enoght proof, but that explanation had a lot more possibilities to be true than just a water pocket, due how small enceladus is and knowing the source of that heat.

Nice, but I imagine that this test probe device is not RTG by the moment.

But if its mission is to take samples from the geiser, why they dont do it from the surface?

About a probe able to reach the ocean melting several km of ice, I think nuclear thermal is a best solution, they just need to find a good way to transmit info through the ice, which may not be difficult with the right wavelenght.

It's ovbiosuly not using an RTG, those cost an arm and a leg.

And samples from deep in the geyser can uncover less changed samples than those on the surface.

And good luck sending a nuclear probe to Saturn. :) You'll need it.

On 9/16/2015 at 7:07 AM, LordFerret said:

 

Thinking about it, looking at the image of the tube/tunnel created by that test probe... I wonder if they've ever looked into using the ice tunnel created by the probe as a microwave waveguide? Maybe data communication could be accomplished using microwave, beaming data back up through the tunnel. The walls of the tunnel appear smooth enough, and ice has very low bulk resistivity.

 

No, the probe is going to go on a curved trajectory to avoid obstacles. And the hole is likely to close over time.

On 9/16/2015 at 8:28 AM, AngelLestat said:

 

Maybe there is some kind of wavelenght to transmit that is not absorbed by the water, and you let the submarine free of cables that can be stuck in the hole.

 

Gamma rays. But good luck transmitting and receiving data with those.

On 9/16/2015 at 8:38 AM, Motokid600 said:

It doesn't matter if the hole gets closed off I imagine. If you can run a wire down to the ocean you can have an antenna on the end of it in the water. Then the probe swims off and communicates with that.

Problem is... What are the chances of the ice moving and severing the wire?

Doesn't water absorb radio waves? But ice tends to move. Since the global ocean was found by the ice on top moving, the wire is likely to be severed.

On 9/16/2015 at 4:07 PM, LordFerret said:

Well, a smart autonomous sub could melt its way down, enter the ocean, swim around and collect data, and then melt its way back up and deliver that data. Yes? No?

No, too risky for a >$1 Billion dollar probe.

17 hours ago, Spaceception said:

Revival!!

I didn't see posts about this, but what could life under the surface look like? Would be be extremely similar to possible life on Europa? Or would it be completely different?

Probably like Europa's, which would be similar to Earth's deep sea life centering around deep sea vents. Life would definitely be blind.

13 hours ago, max_creative said:

There's also one on europa. I did a group project on it. Mars is ok, but has no water. It does have an atmosphere to protect from radiation. Sorta. 

Europa and Enceladus have water, but also lots more radiation. Heat is partially an issue, but there's tidal heating. The radiation is the biggest problem. The soulution is to live under the ice, which block the radiation.

Any life will be under the ice, so it doesn't matter much anyways.

12 hours ago, Nuke said:

do we need a cable? can we do some kind of vlf transmission. vlf would require a huge antennea, probibly in orbit, and would use a lot of power, but could penetrate ice and water. possibly even accoustic transmission. underwater acoustic communications is an established technology, used by divers, scientists, and the military. you would just need enough cable to get through the ice, and once you strike ocean, you just anchor your drill in place and deploy your rov and an acoustic transceiver. the rov would need to be semi autonomous, be able to stay in range of the transceiver (should reach pretty far), and avoid alien sharks.

 

Yes, the previous page has been on if we need a cable or not.

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im starting to think that a cable would not be good enough to transmit the neccisary power. you would probibly need to step up and invert the output of the rtg so you can do high voltage ac transmission to overcome cable impedance. all with a power supply that is incapable of microwaving a hot pocket. the sub may very well need its own power supply, and data needs to be transmitted by other means.

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The thread might be old but some things just do take their time. News on Enceladus, if it is considered necro just delete it, it's not worth a new thread.

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-017-0063

Thermal anomalies in the south pole region seem to raise the subsurface temp. by ~20-30K, in absolute from 30 to 60K.

 

Concerning indirect evidence of an ocean and debate of a possible globality:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103515003899

In short: libration modelling hinted pro global ocean, heat exchange and thermal models against.

 

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1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

libration modelling hinted pro global ocean, heat exchange and thermal models against.

That's its rocky core rolls there and back on the inner surface of the hollow icy crust shell. Like an old nut.

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Or a child's rattle or a kinder surprise egg.

Shake before use ... but it may melt in the hand :-)

 

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