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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.10.2 "Луна" 14/May/2022)


CobaltWolf
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Ok I didn't want to wait any more...

 

16 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

So I hear you’re revamping the Gemini line of parts...

Yeah, Gemini definitely needs to be redone - the capsule itself is fine, but basically everything else could use an update. For instance, the adapter section should be split into two sections - the adapter and the retro-module - and the MOL station parts need to be redone since currently they bulge out way more than the real one did (from what I can tell, although I may be wrong). 

I like the way you’re currently taking it, the LES and ferry modules look very good. I still think that the MOL station module you showed was a bit to wide, but that may just be me. And of course, you would still need to implement the actual ground-facing telescope array, maybe you could even rig up contacts to photo certain areas.

So, I don't want to give the impression I'm redoing Gemini right now - I'm not, I don't have time to at the moment. Right now I'm very specifically adding parts that are more or less independent of the specific configuration of the capsule and adapter.

The existing "MOL" parts weren't really supposed to represent the MOL itself (I've become a lot more interested in the real-life designs since I made those parts) and I'd like to leave them in the mod as options for people to use.

The new MOL module is the right width - all the diagrams I've seen of the "final" configuration, and the mockups they actually built, look like that. I honestly have no intention of making a telescope part, since... what would it accomplish, really? It would be a big low detail boondoggle that you could run a couple times in Kerbin orbit... Not to mention doing stuff like contracts is beyond my capability.

 

16 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

Anyways, in preparation for the upcoming Gemini revamp I looked though as much of the stuff on it as I could find, and my god, there’s s lot. For starters:

Gemini/MOL wasn’t just for optical Earth-observation. I found a few articles which referenced a version of MOL with a radio telescope to listen in on Russian transmissions (and potentially even electronic warfare?), so maybe that could be implemented but as a deep space observatory, with contracts to observe pulsars and such. (Imagine a contract to position a Gemini with a radio telescope behind the Mun to shield it from radio emissions and you get some science as a reward)

There’s also all of the Gemini satellite inspectors/interceptors which had many different variants, the most basic of which was a regular Gemini with a robotic arm and grappler to grab onto satellites, and the most advanced of which was basically a mini space station, with a habitat module attached behind the adapter. 

Not to forget all of the rescue Gemini variants, which ranged from Earth orbit all the way to the Lunar surface, and were mostly just other Gemini configurations painted with red and white checkers. They did look cool though. 

And finally, there are the Lunar Gemini's. I would hold off on the bigger ones (aka direct ascent) until you revamp the Saturn’s, but what you’ve done so far with the smaller ones looks very good. It’s a shame you’re not working on the Lunar Recon Gemini yet because that one is my favourite, but as I said, I agree with you’re decision to revamp the Saturn’s first.

There was a bunch of different MOL variants proposed, I imagine somewhat similarly to how Dyna-Soar had more and more proposals as it became clear that the program was going to get shut down due to the lack of purpose. They proposed several specifically to NASA as well, which seems like a non-starter considering Apollo was in full swing by then.

I don't have any real interest in doing military type stuff unless if can be used for the more peaceful kind of missions you run in KSP. Arms/grapplers would require either Breaking Ground or Infernal Robotics, neither of which I'd want as a dependency.

I think BDB in Colors has a Rescue Gemini configuration.

I don't have any plans to revamp Saturn other than "it's something that needs to happen eventually"

I actually had sketched out a Recon Gemini SM, I just decided not to include it. Maybe I should take another look at it. It's definitely cool. Here's a link to the study for anyone that's interested

 

16 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

Of all of these the ones you should probably focus on first (in my opinion) are: 

1. Gemini EOR/LOR (would require the implementation of literally one part - the cargo bay for the lander)

2. Revamping the Gemini Service/Adapter Module (requires two, maybe three parts)

3. Implementing the Gemini taxi

4. Revamping the MOL parts

5. Adding the MOL optical and radio telescopes, and the satellite grabbing arm

6. Adding the Gemini paraglider

7. Revamping/adding Big Gemini and Lunar Recon Gemini (after the Saturn overhaul)

8. Adding Gemini Direct Ascent and Rescue Gemini

  1. One of the sacrifices I had to make with the mini lander is that it can't fit in a 1.875m cargo bay. I'm not really sure what the best way to transport it is honestly. I think basically either dual launch LOR or single launch with a transposition and docking.
  2. I'd like to save this for when I can revamp the entire Gemini at once - the inaccurate hatch on the capsule itself bother me to no end.
  3. I'm not entirely sure what Gemini Taxi refers to - is that the Gemini Ferry, with the 1.875m (in KSP) service / cargo module and an Apollo type docking port on the back?
  4. MOL revamp is this update.
  5. See above for all this.
  6. That is not possible without more external dependencies. Also, the idea of having to actually worry about KSP's aero system terrifies me :P
  7. What I'm calling Big G 1969 (with the cylindrical service module) is coming this update. You correctly guessed that Big G 1967 (with the conical SM) will have to wait for the Saturn revamp.
  8. I honestly don't know if I have any intention of adding more Gemini based landers. I think I'd rather see my dream of eventually adding post-Apollo AAP type landers instead.

 

16 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

I’ve taken the liberty to compile some to-scale diagrams of them (spacecraft on the right hand side of the second image are the same spacecraft as in the first image):

Top to bottom: Gemini Taxi, MOL Gemini, Electronic Warfare Gemini, Interceptor Gemini, Lunar Recon Gemini, Circumlunar Gemini, Gemini-Agena, Classic Gemini. 

I'm a bit confused, actually. I don't think any of the first batch of diagrams are accurate. For instance, the internal configuration of MOL seems completely off, plus the MOL itself wouldn't have flown with a Transtage (that was just the mockup flight). Do you have any sources to link for these?

 

 

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48 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:
  1. One of the sacrifices I had to make with the mini lander is that it can't fit in a 1.875m cargo bay. I'm not really sure what the best way to transport it is honestly. I think basically either dual launch LOR or single launch with a transposition and docking.

Does it bulge out a lot? If it doesn't, perhaps some sort of truss frame with a slightly expanded fairing could be used? 

BTW, when you do Saturn, you should definitely take a look at Lunar Gemini:
geminionthemoon4.jpg

geminiiii.jpg

Not before, though. Like the 1967 Big Gemini, it'd be sized for S-IVB. In fact, Lunar Gemini stages look like perfect adapters/upper stages for expanding the capabilities of a Saturn-launched Gemini. In particular, the "Lunar Retrograde Engine" would have been an RL-10, with the rest presumably being AJ-10 derivatives (possibly similar to Transtage engines). I could see the retrograde stage being particularly useful for adding extra dV to Saturn-based LVs.

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11 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Does it bulge out a lot? If it doesn't, perhaps some sort of truss frame with a slightly expanded fairing could be used? 

BTW, when you do Saturn, you should definitely take a look at Lunar Gemini:

Not before, though. Like the 1967 Big Gemini, it'd be sized for S-IVB. In fact, Lunar Gemini stages look like perfect adapters/upper stages for expanding the capabilities of a Saturn-launched Gemini. In particular, the "Lunar Retrograde Engine" would have been an RL-10, with the rest presumably being AJ-10 derivatives (possibly similar to Transtage engines). I could see the retrograde stage being particularly useful for adding extra dV to Saturn-based LVs.

I'm.... fairly certain that the Ascent stage on that is the same stage as the Lunar Recon Gemini :0.0:

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15 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

I'm.... fairly certain that the Ascent stage on that is the same stage as the Lunar Recon Gemini :0.0:

Probably, yeah. There's not much information on this thing, but seeing as it would probably follow a Lunar Recon Gemini, it'd make sense to reuse the hardware. Here's a document (scantly) detailing some lunar Gemini variants:
https://www.scribd.com/document/60602730/Gemini-Applications-for-Lunar-Reconnaissance

In particular, I find it quite convenient that the first circumlunar Gemini configuration involves a part which is, in spirit, the current BDB Gemini SM. Also, upon closer inspection it would seem that that they intended to use an Agena engine for the Gemini lunar orbiter. They would also feature larger chutes and a heavy-duty heatshield, with the lunar configuration having an Apollo-style triple parachute.

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9 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Probably, yeah. There's not much information on this thing, but seeing as it would probably follow a Lunar Recon Gemini, it'd make sense to reuse the hardware. Here's a document (scantly) detailing some lunar Gemini variants:
https://www.scribd.com/document/60602730/Gemini-Applications-for-Lunar-Reconnaissance

In particular, I find it quite convenient that the first circumlunar Gemini configuration involves a part which is, in spirit, the current BDB Gemini SM. Also, upon closer inspection it would seem that that they intended to use an Agena engine for the Gemini lunar orbiter. They would also feature larger chutes and a heavy-duty heatshield, with the lunar configuration having an Apollo-style triple parachute.

I linked that doc in my reply to @BillKerman1234, and yeah, I chuckled when I realized the current SM is basically one of the configurations.

I think the Agena is just one of several options. I would need to re-read it again to understand what is for flybys and what is for orbiting. I don't see Transtage anywhere, even though a flyby using that was also proposed at one point.

Luckily for me the LES tower is the same design as the Gemini MORL Ferry LES, so it matches the one I already made.

I notice another thing is that they'd replace the shingles on the outside of the pod with some other material, any idea what that would look like? I almost wonder if it would look like an Apollo CM's upper "heatshield".

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention. I don't have time to remake the Gemini SM, but I did take a moment over the weekend to re-export the SM texture with a brighter white to match the standard Restock color palette. Otherwise it looked really off next to the newer white parts I'm making.

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2 minutes ago, Jall said:

Hey, so uh.. is there a particular reason the old titan parts look all rusty now? Or was this just a neat freak occurrence? (I'm using the newest dev version btw)

qRFSSRY.png

You give yourself the answer: they are old. I think they will be removed with the next update.

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5 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I'm a bit confused, actually. I don't think any of the first batch of diagrams are accurate. For instance, the internal configuration of MOL seems completely off, plus the MOL itself wouldn't have flown with a Transtage (that was just the mockup flight). Do you have any sources to link for these?

The MOL diagram was the result of me seeing conflicting diagrams, basing half of it on written descriptions, and being lazy. I presumed that the MOL would share a common pressure vessel design with the Gemini Taxi (or more correctly the Gemini Ferry), and I also presumed that it would need a transtage for stationkeeping. The Electronic Warfare Gemini was me guessing the design based of, well nothing. I couldn’t find any diagrams of it. 

The rest of them should be accurate though. The Interceptor Gemini I drew was based of the Blue Gemini novels, but I think it had real-life considerations. 

I agree with everything else you said, except the bit about dependencies for the robotic arm. As far as I can tell just making it an animated docking port should suffice, since you would likely use the RCS to actually grab any satellites. Still, I understand if you want to do other stuff first. 

 

In other news; any thoughts on KSP 2? 

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20 minutes ago, Cdodders said:

So @CobaltWolf, it looks like your workload is about to skyrocket, unless Squad does a very good job of porting

Given the focus on sci-fi elements in the KSP2 launch material, KSP2 may not be the best game for 50s-70s style historical rocketry.

 

Of course, I would love to see the models ported over. I have the feeling that they'd be up to snuff compared to whatever parts are included at launch.

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Considering all the speculation and fuss going around today, I think it's high time we get reminded what this thread is really for. (Several missions are depicted, with the pictures switching between them)

9IPCKw8.pngekw6AdY.pngT5x6e7N.pngbEYnc8j.png39BbUMB.pnggGxSKI0.pnguNs1SHp.png3pyLwuD.png

BDB has changed the way I play KSP and has probably kept me playing a lot longer/more than I otherwise would have been. I hope it continues for a long while yet. You have my best wishes Cobalt.

Edited by DeltaDizzy
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19 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

Titan 2(23)G at the launchpad

Looks great! One comment - there is a Titan 2 type "shroud" for the LR-87. It's not much but it does give you an accurate tank butt, air scoops, etc which I think adds a lot of character to the base of the rocket.

 

19 hours ago, Jall said:

Hey, so uh.. is there a particular reason the old titan parts look all rusty now? Or was this just a neat freak occurrence? (I'm using the newest dev version btw)

19 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

You give yourself the answer: they are old. I think they will be removed with the next update.

Yeah, it was just an attempt to make it more obvious what parts are deprecated, the textures were also scaled down a lot to make them take up less RAM. It was a bit of an experiment, it honestly took too much time and effort for me :P

 

17 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

The MOL diagram was the result of me seeing conflicting diagrams, basing half of it on written descriptions, and being lazy. I presumed that the MOL would share a common pressure vessel design with the Gemini Taxi (or more correctly the Gemini Ferry), and I also presumed that it would need a transtage for stationkeeping. The Electronic Warfare Gemini was me guessing the design based of, well nothing. I couldn’t find any diagrams of it. 

The rest of them should be accurate though. The Interceptor Gemini I drew was based of the Blue Gemini novels, but I think it had real-life considerations. 

I agree with everything else you said, except the bit about dependencies for the robotic arm. As far as I can tell just making it an animated docking port should suffice, since you would likely use the RCS to actually grab any satellites. Still, I understand if you want to do other stuff first.

MOL, like DynaSoar and a lot of other "never flew" projects (and even the ones that did...) changed a lot over its lifetime, so it's really easy to get thrown for a loop. As far as I know Gemini Ferry has nothing to do with MOL. There's a good run down of MOL on TheSpaceReview. Scroll down a little in my post for the "final" internal MOL configuration.

I actually just finished reading Blue Darker Than Black last weekend, I need to find time to start Pale Blue. There's great technical diagrams for Blue Gemini on the author's website, you can see the service module of the Gemini-I is more or less unchanged - it doesn't have a pair of liquid engines like in your drawings.

(To be clear, I love your drawings and appreciate them. It's just really easy to get lost with how hard it is to research all this space stuff)

In that case it would probably make more sense for it to be like... a Klaw module on an animated boom or something.

2121d1.jpg

 

13 hours ago, DeltaDizzy said:

Considering all the speculation and fuss going around today, I think it's high time we get reminded what this thread is really for. (Several missions are depicted, with the pictures switching between them)

BDB has changed the way I play KSP and has probably kept me playing a lot longer/more than I otherwise would have been. I hope it continues for a long while yet. You have my best wishes Cobalt.

Nice LV! At first I was thinking that a Titan with a Centaur instead of the second stage is a bit weird, but it's not that different than say the EELVs.

 

19 hours ago, Sgt.Shutesie said:

So when is this mod going to support KSP 2?

17 hours ago, BillKerman1234 said:

In other news; any thoughts on KSP 2? 

15 hours ago, Cdodders said:

So @CobaltWolf, it looks like your workload is about to skyrocket, unless Squad does a very good job of porting

15 hours ago, Machinique said:

Given the focus on sci-fi elements in the KSP2 launch material, KSP2 may not be the best game for 50s-70s style historical rocketry.

Of course, I would love to see the models ported over. I have the feeling that they'd be up to snuff compared to whatever parts are included at launch.

14 hours ago, Cdodders said:

1950s to 2150s? I'll take it

14 hours ago, BNSF1995 said:

Of all the mods I wanna see ported over the KSP 2, this is probably second on the list (first being MechJeb, because I can't fly worth a damn, and I'm too impatient to learn).

Yeah yesterday... uh. Frankly sucked a bit for me. Just because, now the future of BDB is pretty up in the air. I don't want to stop working on it (frankly this is like one of the only things I enjoy doing with my time?) but it's really impossible to know right now what will happen. There's a lot of "what-ifs" that will make porting things a lot harder - there certainly won't be B9 functionality, at least at the start, for instance. Even if I can import the models, there's question of if the art style / shaders will change, if the scale will change, if the way stuff is built will change etc etc.

As @Machinique pointed out, there's also the matter of focus - the material so far seemed really focused on things like massive sci fi ships and colonies which..... don't interest me whatsoever? So I question if something like BDB is even appropriate. So then maybe it makes sense to keep deving for KSP1, but then will there be anyone to play it anymore? Will, to use an example again, B9PS keep getting updated?

There's also a lot else going on. Some of my friends (who I won't name, for obv reasons) have already told me they firmly intend to retire from modding and that's really sad too.

Honestly I'm just trying not to think about it right now.
 

 

Unrelated but I didn't know what to do with myself last night so I made a 1.5m adapter tank for Atlas since I realized it needed one.

y1QT2RI.png

 

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38 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Yeah yesterday... uh. Frankly sucked a bit for me. Just because, now the future of BDB is pretty up in the air. I don't want to stop working on it (frankly this is like one of the only things I enjoy doing with my time?) but it's really impossible to know right now what will happen. There's a lot of "what-ifs" that will make porting things a lot harder - there certainly won't be B9 functionality, at least at the start, for instance. Even if I can import the models, there's question of if the art style / shaders will change, if the scale will change, if the way stuff is built will change etc etc.

As @Machinique pointed out, there's also the matter of focus - the material so far seemed really focused on things like massive sci fi ships and colonies which..... don't interest me whatsoever? So I question if something like BDB is even appropriate. So then maybe it makes sense to keep deving for KSP1, but then will there be anyone to play it anymore? Will, to use an example again, B9PS keep getting updated?

There's also a lot else going on. Some of my friends (who I won't name, for obv reasons) have already told me they firmly intend to retire from modding and that's really sad too.

Honestly I'm just trying not to think about it right now.

AFAIK Squad will continue to develop KSP 1, KSP 2'll be developed by Space Theory

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49 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Looks great! One comment - there is a Titan 2 type "shroud" for the LR-87. It's not much but it does give you an accurate tank butt, air scoops, etc which I think adds a lot of character to the base of the rocket.

Damn, forget it.

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On 8/19/2019 at 5:06 PM, CobaltWolf said:

The new MOL module is the right width - all the diagrams I've seen of the "final" configuration, and the mockups they actually built, look like that. I honestly have no intention of making a telescope part, since... what would it accomplish, really? It would be a big low detail boondoggle that you could run a couple times in Kerbin orbit... Not to mention doing stuff like contracts is beyond my capability.

Let others worry about contracts. I think that a large telescope would be a really nice part to have. DMagic Orbital Science has telescopes, but quite frankly, they don't look that great. Indeed, I'd love to see DMOS instruments in BDB style. Telescopes and ELINT dishes, especially, since those are large parts that make building big sats worthwhile, but ones currently available look meh at best.

Oh, and don't worry about KSP2. It's about a year away, and even then, there's no telling if it'll be any good. Squad is still going to be working on KSP1, last time I've heard. Indeed, if anything, it may cause KSP1 codebase to stabilize. 

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5 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Nice LV! At first I was thinking that a Titan with a Centaur instead of the second stage is a bit weird, but it's not that different than say the EELVs.

It actually works really well in 2.5x. For lunar missions I typically end up using it to start the landing, as well as Kerbin orbit insertion, TLI, and LOI.

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