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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.10.2 "Луна" 14/May/2022)


CobaltWolf
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5 minutes ago, Adam-Kerman said:

Anyone having trouble with INT-17?

been trying with different engines, different lengths, etc..

but just won’t liftoff like it used to

ideas?

I have a fictional solution

I made 2 INT-17 variants

INT-17A, no stretches, uses RL-20s

unknown.png

INT-17B, correct tank stretches, it uses J-2T400Ks

unknown.png

INT-17 is weird but I still like it

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29 minutes ago, Adam-Kerman said:

Anyone having trouble with INT-17?

been trying with different engines, different lengths, etc..

but just won’t liftoff like it used to

ideas?

 

21 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

INT-17B, correct tank stretches, it uses J-2T400Ks

unknown.png

INT-17 is weird but I still like it

Starhelperdude's second variant of INT-17 was featured in "A Study of Saturn V and Intermediate Vehicles Improvement Program", with the vehicle (MLV-SAT-INT-17) consisting of a 15.5 foot stretch on the S-II (measured from the bottom of the engines to the top of the stage, and roughly a 3m KSP scale stretch), and a 16.5 foot stretch for the S-IVB (measured from the bottom of the S-II/S-IVB adapter to the bottom of the IU, and a roughly 3m KSP scale stretch), and featuring 7 J-2T 400k thrust engines for the first stage, and 1 J-2T 400k thrust engine for the second stage. I this version some time ago and it was a remarkable improvement to INT-17's performance.

Edited by Jcking
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6 minutes ago, Jcking said:

 

Starhelperdude's second variant of INT-17 was featured in "A Study of Saturn V and Intermediate Vehicles Improvement Program", with the vehicle (MLV-SAT-INT-17) consisting of a 15.5 foot stretch on the S-II (measured from the bottom of the engines to the top of the stage, and roughly a 3m KSP scale stretch), and a 16.5 foot stretch for the S-IVB (measured from the bottom of the S-II/S-IVB adapter to the bottom of the IU, and a roughly 3m KSP scale stretch), and featuring 7 J-2T 400k thrust engines for the first stage, and 1 J-2T 400k thrust engine for the second stage. I this version some time ago and it was a remarkable improvement to INT-17's performance.

Interesting to hear that J-2T400Ks where actually proposed at one point for INT-17, I didn't know back then that they where, I just used the strongest and most logical (no M1) Hydrolox engine. I thought about using the normal J-2T or the 1st upgrade for it, but they have worse ISP so I also used J-2T400K on the 2nd stage

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BbCmrIJ.png

Saturn MLV V-42-4(L)-B sits on the pad (I use my own MLV designations to make it a little simpler: The V refers to Saturn V derived, the 42 refers to 4th generation, 2 stages, the second 4(L) refers to 4 liquid boosters, and the B refers to to the second available size of boosters (two engines each).

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Stage one and boosters are powered by a total of 13 F-1B engines, and the second stage is powered by 5 J-2A-2 hydrolox engines

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Payload can be further expanded by adding an MS-IVB third stage and adding an additional 2 J-2A-2s to the MS-II. This 2-stage variant is intended to launch ultra heavy payloads to LEO or self propelled payloads directly to the moon.

Edited by MajorLeaugeRocketScience
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10 hours ago, Adam-Kerman said:

Anyone having trouble with INT-17?

been trying with different engines, different lengths, etc..

but just won’t liftoff like it used to

ideas?

INT-17, the "HG-3" powered (notice the quotes please!)   Needs either RL-20P3 engines in the first stage or the XLR-129s.   Those are the best engines for the fit.   ALSO needs LESS Than full fuel (as designed.)    I wrote an article on the Saturn II a couple months back let me reference it for INT-17....   Oh and you need the 7x engine mount, not the standard 5x Engine mount.

First to quote my original document:

Quote

INT-17:   INT-17 was a paper study that latched onto the Paper engine known as the HG-3.  The goal was to showcase that while high-power engines COULD be made, putting them on a Saturn S-II(C5) stage would not make it fly well or with a viable payload.   This was done as a contrast to the latter INT-18 and INT-19 proposals for Saturn II which both showcased that with existing technology, it was cheaper and effective to replace the Saturn I completely with Saturn V derived components.

The above quote means INT-17 is at best a PIG and not really a productive Rocket.   

The Original document that lead to the INT-17, INT-18 and INT-19 "Adaptation of the Saturn S-II stage for Ground launch" specifically calls out that any S-II derived Launcher would need augmented or 0 stage thrust to carry a workable payload.   The document cites the Minuteman SRM (AKA INT-19,) and the UA-1205/UA-1207 SRM (AKA INT-18) as well as a NO S-IVB UA-1205 rocket (Which was dropped from the actual final document.

The Final INT/MLV document on the Saturn II points out that the first stage needs something like 2/3rds max fuel and the S-IVB needs something like 50% max fuel to attain orbit with a 5000lb payload (I don't have that document well sorted at the moment and am looking for it (Will update when I find it.)

IE for the cost, just throw your 5000lb payload on a Delta or an Atlas Centaur and you are more efficient in $$$ to launch.

*EDITED FROM HERE ON TO NEXT ** comment*

So the Initial study I quoted, had the HG-3 engines in a 7x array and needed a reduced fuel load (I still haven't found the document that actually calculated it out but I can tell you Wikipedia is dead wrong if you build it with 7 RL20s or XLR-129s for throw weight.   Again HG-3 was a paper engine and the 1964 document covering the INT-17 is also a theoretical paper and was never intended to make hardware.    It appears that Pratt and Whitney's theoretical dream pipe HG-3 had some problems that could not be solved with then state of the art engineering, but with 20 years give or take would result in the superior turbo pumps used on the RS-25/SSME engines for the Shuttle.

A latter Boeing study re-investigated the INT-17 as part of it's MLV-SAT-V3B.   This INT-17 (yes lets call it INT-17A) is stretched by 15.5 or 16.5 feet (depends on the copy of the report but both numbers appear)  Full fuel load and 7x J-2T-400Ks as mentioned previously by @Starhelperdude above (good guess BTW!)   @Jcking of course tied the correct guess all up with a pretty bow for us :D       MS-IVB also 16.5ft long and also with a single J-2T-400K engine.    136k lbs to LEO at 72 degrees.   Report is "Study of Saturn and Intermediate Vehicle Improvement Programs: Executive Summary Report" dated 04/16/1968.   This is a Marshal Space Flight Center summation of the various INT and MLV reports up to this date.  

*End Edited Content*

 

 

8 hours ago, MajorLeaugeRocketScience said:

I use my own MLV designations to make it a little simpler

Neat rockets.   I should note that each vendor used their own designation systems in the MLV rockets.    The only unified designations appear to be the LEO INT series of Saturn Rockets.    A telling moment if you think about it for a bit.  

Edited by Pappystein
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7 hours ago, Saltshaker said:

Does anyone have a good Mun rover craft/subassembly file or ideas on how to stuff one into the J-class LEM bay? I don't use BG or other robotic parts mods.  I figured this is the best place to ask.

Gonna be pretty difficult to fit anything with wheels in that quadrant without some way to fold it up. You might be able to store the bulkier parts in the descent stage’s inventory slots and have a Kerbal attach them on the surface during EVA, but it would be a pretty awkward solution no matter what.

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12 hours ago, Saltshaker said:

Does anyone have a good Mun rover craft/subassembly file or ideas on how to stuff one into the J-class LEM bay? I don't use BG or other robotic parts mods.  I figured this is the best place to ask.

I have a good design, it uses a combination of DLC and mod parts. It is a reasonably close approximation to the historical LRV. the problem is that it is too big for the BDB LM, even when folded. I am working on trying to Tweakscale it down, but I am running into some hinkiness with that while trying to attach the folding rover wheels. The other issue is developing a useable descent stage deployment mechanism.

The #1 issue is that the scale chosen by the BDB dev team does not match the scale of the stock and DLC parts. Neither party is wrong here, both had justifiable reasons for doing so. But it does make kitbashing a historical-themed LRV for BDB use a bit more difficult. I may end up landing it separately. 

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3 hours ago, DaveyJ576 said:

I may end up landing it separately. 

That's what I usually end up doing, I just land the LEM then I just HyperEdit the rover next to it lol.

If we could get a rover kit that we could assemble using engineers that'd be so cool.

Edited by TaintedLion
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48 minutes ago, TaintedLion said:

That's what I usually end up doing, I just land the LEM then I just HyperEdit the rover next to it lol.

If we could get a rover kit that we could assemble using engineers that'd be so cool.

As I recall, the dev team has ZERO interest in doing that. After tinkering with my version, I can’t blame them! :)

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UPDATE

Bluedog Design Bureau v1.9.0 "пробе"

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v1.9.0 "пробе"

New Content and Features
- Pioneer 10 and 11
- Extra Pioneer 10/11 derived parts including Pioneer SUAE (Saturn Uranus Atmospheric Entry) and Pioneer Outer Planets Orbiter
- Clementine and ISAS
- Radio Astronomy Explorer A/B (and Star-17/Star-17A)
- Transit 3 and 4
- Transit 5A, 5C, 5O/Oscar, 5BN, 5E, and SOOS (Stacked Oscar on Scout)
- Beacon Explorer
- SOLRAD 8
- LOFTI
- INJUN 1
- POPPY (block 1 and 2)
- ANNA 1B
- New small probe (0.625m) sized grapple "Klaw"
- New Titan 23G/Titan IIIB Structural Adapter Part
- Revamped Geiger counter
- IVA's for MOL made by Beale
- New IVA props by Well and Beale
- Revamped Peacekeeper/Athena/Minotaur textures
- Revamped Geiger Counter and Solar Battery mesh and texture
- New Titan Gemini Decoupler IIIA Variant
- Able variant for Thor Boattail
- Thermal Control Pinwheel Texture Variant for Pioneer P3
- New Transtage Alternate White Variant for tankage and shroud
- New LDC Black Texture Variant and Alternate Blue LDC Texture Variant
- Delta IV densified propellant switch in BDB Extras (By Estreetrockets)
- Optional patch to replace BDB boiloff with CryoTanks boiloff in BDB extras (by Grimmas)
- Add engine ignitor configs for M1, XLR129, RL20 and RS30
- New kerbalized flag for Pioneer 10/11 Plaque

Updates and Enhancements
- Update bundled B9 Part Switch to 2.19.0
- Update bundled Module Manager to 4.2.1
- Update bundled Waterfall to 0.7.0
- Old Centaur parts deleted from OldParts folder
- SOLRAD/GRAB 3 variant for SOLRAD/GRAB 1
- Massive LDC Texture Cleanup
- HAPS/Super HAPS Texture Cleanup
- Massive Titan Texture Cleanup (spanning titan 2,3, and 4 tankage, engines, transtage, most structural parts, and UA120 Solid Motors)
- Titan 23G Second Stage Texture Redone (with ACS slightly upscaled to be more accurate)
- Scout Texture Cleanup
- New multispectral scan science definition
- New cosmic ray telescope science definition
- New trapped radiation science definition 
- Added cosmic ray experiment to OGO PEP Instrument
- Added trapped radiation experiment to Pioneer 4
- Added solar wind experiment to Mariner 10 Plasma Instrument
- Added UV Spec and Solar X-Ray experiment to WRESAT
- Massive science balancing tweaks
- Minor antenna balancing
- Cargo support for many probes and experiments
- Less powerful (realism focused) Scout balancing variants available (optimal for launching Transit missions)
- Craft files for the new probes
- Titan 23G/IIIB Craft file updated (to reflect new 23G/IIIB structural adapter part)
- A few more Titan and Delta craft files
- Massive SCANSAT balancing tweaks to accommodate multispectral scanners
- Added SCANSAT support to a few more parts
- Add (minor) support for KSRSS/RSS in a few science definitions
- Add support for SMURFF with RSS (thanks to genehwung)
- Add support for Engine Ignitor for BDB 1.8 cryo engines

Bug fixes
- Minor typos and such
- Update Procedural Fairings compatibility patch
- Fixes for Atlas surface attach patch in Extras (Thanks to Pappystein)
- Fix science transfer issues on MOL labs and Gemini (thanks to birdog357 )
- Minor bugfixes in contracts (thanks to Morphisor)
- Add missing entry cost to some parts
- LDC Short Interstage Mesh Normals Fix
- Titan 2 Upper Stage Raceway Fix
- P-11 Subsatellite Node Fix
- Real description fixes
- Misc tag fixes
- Fix Nimbus Early Command Antenna node height

DOWNLOAD [GitHub]

DOWNLOAD [SpaceDock]
Full Release Album

(special thanks to those who contributed screenshots)

https://imgur.com/a/tRGg3gK

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Disclaimer: The rocket in the release cover image is of LDC with the revamped textures, not Saturn. Saturn will come in a later update.

Edited by Invaderchaos
oops forgot part of changelog
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So, I have been working the Saturn revamp branch, experimenting with some Apollo Applications Project (AAP) concepts. The first part is related to mission AAP-1A, which was the first scheduled mission for AAP, to have taken place some time in 1969. It obviously never flew.

Spoiler

o8mNeCf.jpg

YX0llTc.jpg

Spoiler

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The docked experiment carrier is a kitbash of this official concept:

Spoiler

aS8aVU3.jpg

W4ZHVSA.jpg

Z6kij1o.jpg

It was essentially a framework to which various cameras and sensors were attached, and it had a conical pressurized section in the center that served as a control station for the experiments.  My kitbash is a little smaller than the real one would have been. It is a combination of a Mercury capsule and Coatl's Surveyor bus. I then slapped on a variety of experiments. Not an accurate recreation by any means, but close enough for government work.

I am now working on the Wet Workshop. Below is my recreation of the ATM for the AAP program.

Spoiler

H1R3d78.jpg

Does anyone have an idea of how to attach this to the SLA? Without a node on the bottom you have to do a lot of adjustments. The existing framework options that @CobaltWolfadded helps, but there is still no way of attaching it to the SLA. 

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7 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

Out-freaking-standing.

This is a pretty jaw-dropping release in an already amazing collection. Nice!

Definitely! Took long enough to release. Wish I could've gotten Kepler out before the release, but it will likely come in a patch update in the next few weeks.

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46 minutes ago, DaveyJ576 said:

Does anyone have an idea of how to attach this to the SLA? Without a node on the bottom you have to do a lot of adjustments. The existing framework options that @CobaltWolfadded helps, but there is still no way of attaching it to the SLA. 

The four points of the AAP-1a truss would connect to the LM attach points (the top of the legs)

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2 hours ago, Invaderchaos said:

Saturn will come in a later update.

Good. That will help me resist the urge to start a new playthrough.

BDB isn't in my current mod set (blasphemy!) yet this thread is still my favorite, especially the history and never-built discussions.

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6 minutes ago, Gordon Dry said:

I guess I need to stick to dev/apollo-saturn-revamp because some parts are not in the release yet. Like those from Bluedog_DB\Parts\Apollo\SIM_bay_experiments\

This was specified in the release notes; the new Apollo parts are not ready for release. However, all of the parts in this release were merged into the Apollo dev branch on github.

Edited by Invaderchaos
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2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

The four points of the AAP-1a truss would connect to the LM attach points (the top of the legs)

For that point I was referring to the Apollo Telescope Mount. With the telescope on the bottom in this config, there is no node to attach the SLA to. 

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