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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.10.4 "Луна" 19/July/2022)


CobaltWolf
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4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

EDIT: By the way, has anyone come up with cool Scout or Peacekeeper-derived LVs yet? :)

Yeah... but it doesn't work very well. I have issues properly balancing the fuel load and thrust level for payloads, so I kinda set the Peacekeeper parts aside for anything other than first stages.

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Some of y'all waiting for Titan Barbarian, meanwhile the galaxy brains out here know all they need is Delta II cores and 3 shuttle SRBs...

DlslK3k.jpg

That looks just... wrong. Wouldn’t the exhaust from the liquid engines burn away the SRB casings?

Edited by hieywiey
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3 minutes ago, hieywiey said:

That looks just... wrong. Wouldn’t the exhaust from the liquid engines burn away the SRB casings?

I believe the painting is wrong, the shuttle solids would be a Stage 0 and the Delta cores wouldn't fire until separation.

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1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said:

I believe the painting is wrong, the shuttle solids would be a Stage 0 and the Delta cores wouldn't fire until separation.

Oh, so like some Mutated Titan IV with three SSSRBs instead of SRMUs, and six Delta II cores (and presumably a central fuel/oxidizer tank). What upper stage did it use? I can’t imagine using such a dinky upper stage with this like the Delta-K, maybe something more like a Centaur.

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2 minutes ago, hieywiey said:

Oh, so like some Mutated Titan IV with three SSSRBs instead of SRMUs, and six Delta II cores (and presumably a central fuel/oxidizer tank). What upper stage did it use? I can’t imagine using such a dinky upper stage with this like the Delta-K, maybe something more like a Centaur.

So, and this is something that I was also surprised to learn, the Barbarian rocket was basically meant to be a single, unique launch vehicle build AT the launch pad. That goes for this and the more-well-known Titan Barbarian - they were supposed to be one-off LVs. The upper stage for this design is actually that central Delta II core. It's higher relative to the other cores and has a heatshield on it.

index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18965.0;

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2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Some of y'all waiting for Titan Barbarian, meanwhile the galaxy brains out here know all they need is Delta II cores and 3 shuttle SRBs...

 

Except the center of that Delta Cluster is obviously bigger and with no engine.    So that is a LFO fueled Titan II stage set without engines that is fueling all the Delta II / RS-27 tank engine sets.  The Titan 2 eqv tanks would serve as a non-droppable ferry tank.

The SRM/SRB could either be shuttle derived for CSD-156 SRMs Although I think in final for the CSD-156 actually looks closer to a segmented 156" version of the AJ-260 with a Cuff and not a flared end by the nozzle.  Cost purposes would say shuttle derived.

RE all the Engines firing at once, I agree with Cobaltwolf and state that HAS to be yet another BAD ARTIST.   BUT  if those RS-27s are fired up 10 seconds before SRM separation ala Titan they would not be recoverable...   After all part of one of the SRBs used on STS-1 was flown on one of the last three shuttle launches....That wouldn't be the case with these as the lower segments would take a lot of damage.

On 1/29/2019 at 6:34 PM, DriftNasty said:

MK-2 RV. Used for Thor Jupiter and Atlas testing for instance.

 

Ok first I want to express a couple opinions here.  Ok so I am opinionated jerk... I got a lot of em to share!   Some of these I know run counter to what Cobaltwolf has published even in the past few days but I would like to say them for the purpose of sharing a vision.

  1.  I am not a fan of any sort of Weapon in a Non-weapon mod for KSP.... BDB isn't a weapon mod so making weapons is just... tacky
  2. I am not a fan of Multiple Reentry vehicles weather they are independent or a group of debris raining down.
  3. I DO think that Unitary RVs DO have their place in this game for science purposes but there is not enough Science to justify them....   more on this below.
  4. I think a small group of unitary RVs would be ideal... I could see 2 or maybe 3 in BDB for SCIENCE purposes.
  5. I do NOT think an RV should have any sort of control.  It is the command unit (so you can have it be the last part of the rocket that KSP recognizes as a craft and not debris) but I do not think it should have any sort of SAS like ability.
  6. I DO think that beyond the RV there should be a small group of dedicated parts to make the RV function in KSP. (Parachute/Float/Drogue whatever)
  7. I think that a RV should have a Science recovery module built into it if possible so that the data from external experiments could survive impact.
  8. Finally I think all RVs should SINK and not float.

Now, Some of you have played with the BDB Extras folder and found my modified MK-4 Titan I RV.   I use @DMagic 's Orbital science mod to add some unique science to a probe that has no ability to broadcast it's science it gathers (you HAVE to recover the probe to get the science.)   The Probe has been suitably re-enforced so that it could survive many impacts (but not all,) from a nearly orbital flight.   I have also (not included in BDB extras's ) added small airbrakes to it so that I can increase it's chance of recovery after a high speed flight.   I just wish I had continued to develop it as I was trying to make it work with IMPACT science.  

The Problem I see with the MK-2 RV are pretty vast however and so I am NOT a fan of it's addition to the game.

  • It is an UPSIDE DOWN Truncated cone... AKA it is like a MK1 Space capsule put on a rocket upside down (the top picture posted is of an UPSIDE down RV.)  This greatly increases the cost for the game in parts and confusion on how to build it for people not in the "know"
  • The MK-2 RV would require Atlas and Thor specific parts to be accurate looking.  It was not designed for nor would ever fly on Titan.
  • The Mk-2 was only used on Atlas and Thor (conversely the MK-4 was used on Atlas, Thor[test only IIRC], Titan I and proposed for Titan II.)
  • The Diagram and Photo of the MK-2 you have posted appears to be that of the Program 437-AP.  It is a Photo survey of space debris when launched on an Anti-Satellite Trajectory just sans a Nuclear warhead. http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/thorh5.html Bottom of the page what you show is described.
  • We already have enough Camera equipped parts that the MK-2 in it's Program 437-AP mode is a non starter in my book.

I DO propose a MK-6 RV (The Black Nose of Titan II fame,) be used in Game.  It would use the same parts to interface with Atlas OR Titan II.   Titan I would need one additional/Different part for full interoperability.   It should have room inside the RV envelope for any sort of additional science modules (Aero-Pressure, Temp etc nothing big) and a Drogue or Airbake to slow down decent to a manageable impact speed.   It should sink allowing sub-ocean science.   And most importantly to me It should not have any sort of built in control.  Aerodynamic forces only will keep this sucker flying true.

 

On 1/30/2019 at 11:52 AM, CobaltWolf said:

Screenshot tax... up on the Github now, note that we've moved to using a development branch on Github so you have to download that and not the master.

NICE I like the final colors

On 1/30/2019 at 11:52 AM, CobaltWolf said:

EDIT: By the way, has anyone come up with cool Scout or Peacekeeper-derived LVs yet? :)

I have used Scout to launch several Agena-A/B Derrived LKO satellites including a SCANSAT equipped unit.   It is not good to get an Agena much above 600km circular orbits but it is a cheap/Light LKO launcher in Stock scale.  I am sure It would be too small if I was using RESCALE.

MX is my go to cheap disposable launcher.   Unfortunately I STILL haven't orbited an X-20 with it but I think that is due to the buggy aerodynamics of the incomplete X-20 mod rather than the MX or my piloting skills.   Heck who am I kidding, I have only had an orbital X-20 when It was in a shroud on an Saturn V launcher....   Not even a Titan III-D7 could get it into orbit (loose control ~45 seconds into launch....  ) there is a component to the X-20 that has excessive drag causing the issue... I just haven't spent the time to figure out what.

MX + Agena = Minimus orbit Satellites. with enough Delta-V to recover the Agena on Kerbin... or possibly make an EVE / Duna flyby

38 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

So, and this is something that I was also surprised to learn, the Barbarian rocket was basically meant to be a single, unique launch vehicle build AT the launch pad. That goes for this and the more-well-known Titan Barbarian - they were supposed to be one-off LVs. The upper stage for this design is actually that central Delta II core. It's higher relative to the other cores and has a heatshield on it.

 

OK I will take back my statement about Titan sized central core.   Blame it yet again on the bad artist who drew it.   But it looks like the upper stage is actually could have an originally sized DCSS in that shroud.  the 2.5m in KSP scale one not the larger 3.125m KSP scale sized one.

The one-off-ness of it does that mean the focus will be more on other LDC derivatives of Titan than the Barbarian?

Edited by Pappystein
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22 hours ago, Jso said:

Sparta's got some Scout parts. And Delta-Lite is pretty cool.

 

Interesting way of making Sparta.....   I just Scaled up the Pioneer 5 Probe core (the Pinecone one) for my personal Sparta...   And gave it some alt Science Defs from DMagic's Orbital Science mod.  But your idea is easier and I like it.

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8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

 

Ok first I want to express a couple opinions here.  Ok so I am opinionated jerk... I got a lot of em to share!   Some of these I know run counter to what Cobaltwolf has published even in the past few days but I would like to say them for the purpose of sharing a vision.

  1.  I am not a fan of any sort of Weapon in a Non-weapon mod for KSP.... BDB isn't a weapon mod so making weapons is just... tacky
  2. I am not a fan of Multiple Reentry vehicles weather they are independent or a group of debris raining down.
  3. I DO think that Unitary RVs DO have their place in this game for science purposes but there is not enough Science to justify them....   more on this below.
  4. I think a small group of unitary RVs would be ideal... I could see 2 or maybe 3 in BDB for SCIENCE purposes.
  5. I do NOT think an RV should have any sort of control.  It is the command unit (so you can have it be the last part of the rocket that KSP recognizes as a craft and not debris) but I do not think it should have any sort of SAS like ability.
  6. I DO think that beyond the RV there should be a small group of dedicated parts to make the RV function in KSP. (Parachute/Float/Drogue whatever)
  7. I think that a RV should have a Science recovery module built into it if possible so that the data from external experiments could survive impact.
  8. Finally I think all RVs should SINK and not float.

Now, Some of you have played with the BDB Extras folder and found my modified MK-4 Titan I RV.   I use @DMagic 's Orbital science mod to add some unique science to a probe that has no ability to broadcast it's science it gathers (you HAVE to recover the probe to get the science.)   The Probe has been suitably re-enforced so that it could survive many impacts (but not all,) from a nearly orbital flight.   I have also (not included in BDB extras's ) added small airbrakes to it so that I can increase it's chance of recovery after a high speed flight.   I just wish I had continued to develop it as I was trying to make it work with IMPACT science.  

The Problem I see with the MK-2 RV are pretty vast however and so I am NOT a fan of it's addition to the game.

  • It is an UPSIDE DOWN Truncated cone... AKA it is like a MK1 Space capsule put on a rocket upside down (the top picture posted is of an UPSIDE down RV.)  This greatly increases the cost for the game in parts and confusion on how to build it for people not in the "know"
  • The MK-2 RV would require Atlas and Thor specific parts to be accurate looking.  It was not designed for nor would ever fly on Titan.
  • The Mk-2 was only used on Atlas and Thor (conversely the MK-4 was used on Atlas, Thor[test only IIRC], Titan I and proposed for Titan II.)
  • The Diagram and Photo of the MK-2 you have posted appears to be that of the Program 437-AP.  It is a Photo survey of space debris when launched on an Anti-Satellite Trajectory just sans a Nuclear warhead. http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/thorh5.html Bottom of the page what you show is described.
  • We already have enough Camera equipped parts that the MK-2 in it's Program 437-AP mode is a non starter in my book.

I DO propose a MK-6 RV (The Black Nose of Titan II fame,) be used in Game.  It would use the same parts to interface with Atlas OR Titan II.   Titan I would need one additional/Different part for full interoperability.   It should have room inside the RV envelope for any sort of additional science modules (Aero-Pressure, Temp etc nothing big) and a Drogue or Airbake to slow down decent to a manageable impact speed.   It should sink allowing sub-ocean science.   And most importantly to me It should not have any sort of built in control.  Aerodynamic forces only will keep this sucker flying true.

 

 

I was giving an example of a very early RV to bolster the science aspect argument since it showed a diagram of the internals without any sort of physics package for destruction, but it also is a crude implement to solve a problem much like the first launch vehicles. In a historic sense that would be the first sort of science gathering on reentry. I wouldn't expect it to be fitted to a Titan, then again you don't have access to Titan parts in the beginning. I couldn't find a good picture of a MKIV test RV to use as an example, though it also would have been a good one to start with.

 

The MK-6 would be the best choice for obvious reasons, I think you and I share most of the same opinions on the matter, it isn't a combat game, though the MIRV concept would be for dispersing a gang of small satellites or other probes, not anything weapons related.

I do like the requirement to recover the RV for science after it has landed, of course it has to survive reentry and smashing into Kerbin without exploding for that to be a viable way of gathering suborbital science.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265228332_Modeling_of_ablation_phenomena_in_space_applications as a source for the MK-2 RV. Very early in the first chapter the paper discusses the problem and using a blunt body to solve it, to discover that it isn't the best for the designed (nuclear weapon reentry) application. 

 

I see it as a different path for science gathering that is a challenge, to add a bit of depth to the first parts of the parts pack since the Explorer and Vanguard probes will not survive a reentry. 

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Haven't used it much as of late, as I've been tossing a bunch of 1.875 or 2.5 meter payloads, and that's a bit big for the Delta. Perhaps after I unlock the Ion propulsion node, I'll he able to run higher performance missions with it, but for now... Atlas V has been getting quite the workout.

 

And yeah, it is kinda hard to believe it's gone... But I did manage to see the last one fly, even if it was just for a few seconds before the fog swallowed it.:rolleyes:

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11 minutes ago, DarthGav said:

I'm sorry I meant the plumes. I should have been more specific.

8 minutes ago, Hay said:

I think those are custom plumes made by @Jso

7 minutes ago, sslaptnhablhat said:

I think they're Jso's new plumes, just use the mod without installing RP.

7 minutes ago, DeltaDizzy said:

No, they are from Plume Party by @JadeOfMaar.

They were made by @JadeOfMaar and configured for BDB's parts by @Jso. They are embedded in the mod as our new 'stock' (non-RealPlume) plumes. They will show up by default with no additional dependencies necessary. :)

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