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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.10.4 "Луна" 19/July/2022)


CobaltWolf
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1 minute ago, Zorg said:

One primary exhaust with roll control and the other is marked as a "heat exchanger"

 

The Heat Exchanger (still haven't figured out HOW it gets exhaust gasses...except maybe.....   ) Produces less thrust than the RC Exhaust thus it has an angle (RC exhaust is pointing straight down.  

RS-68 is one of the weirder looking Rocket Engines to fly  That is for sure!      

 

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28 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

What amazes me most however is that they pretty much figured it all out by the 70s. .

Edit: @CobaltWolf how did you reply before I even said it. :o 

I've been trying to figure that out too? If I knew I could time travel I'd have used it to make more parts...

 

EDIT: Reminder to all I'm planning on trying to stream starting ~8 AM Eastern tomorrow morning! :)

Edited by CobaltWolf
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2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

The Heat Exchanger (still haven't figured out HOW it gets exhaust gasses...except maybe.....   ) Produces less thrust than the RC Exhaust thus it has an angle (RC exhaust is pointing straight down.  

RS-68 is one of the weirder looking Rocket Engines to fly  That is for sure!      

The heat exchanger is actually for tank pressurization. There's a small LOX pipe running from off the main oxidizer duct, through the exchanger, and the back into the LOX tank. The LH2 tank is pressurized by the regenerative cooling system: 
1470921_orig.jpg

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So I am doing a series of launches based on various Saturn Proposals that are build-able with BDB + some of the BDB extras folders (not the Saturn Rescale or Saturn MB however!)

I have already started talking about the Saturn A-1 I was attempting to fly.  Turns out I can't use a BDB engine plate for the LR87s does not have a bottom node... So I could either use the BDB Centaur twin engine plate or the (GACK) STOCK EP-18 plate.   I chose the Stock EP-18 plate... and it wasn't a pallatable decision....

Ok puns aside here is my Saturn A-1 Flight.   I got lucky with an accidental (no I didn't plan it, I had the game on autopilot while I answered the phone) Slingshot around the mun.   Gave me just enough d/V to get my satellite in an eccentric orbit around Duna...   Literally by the skin of my teeth (the STAR-48BV just BARELY got it to circularize!)  

But first a little history on the Saturn Program (aka Project Saturn)  

Spoiler

Project Saturn was started by the US Army as a way to lift a bigger warhead.   Seeing as the First Hydrogen bomb (fusion bomb) (the Mk-14 and Mk-16) were both in the 32,000lb weight class, the US Army tasked Von Braun and the group in Huntsville to build a Bigger rocket... Quickly and Cheaply.   The Goal was to carry a significant Payload as quickly and cheaply as possible.     Of-course Von Braun has always wanted to Go to Space and was about to have several of his Rocket Designs carry people into space (Redstone and Jupiter.)     The Team at ABMA calculated the size of a Rocket for the Payload they were given, and realized it would take YEARS to procure the tooling needed to make the new tank Size.  So they sought alternatives.   Someone on the team did fuel load calculations and figured out that if you clustered tanks based on the already in production (thus tools at hand) Redstone and Jupiter rockets, you could get the fuel load needed for a minimum of cost (but a lot of extra mass!)

Thus the Cluster Stage we affectionately know as Saturn S-1 and Saturn S-1b was born!

However, all this time spent on the first stage meant that they didn't have any upper stages ready to complete.  So when the directive changed from lobbing a Nuke to lobbing a payload into orbit.... Well that lagged a bit.  So in the interim, ABMA focused on launching OTHER ROCKETS with the Cluster first stage....   Most of the Saturn A series of rockets, feature the Saturn Cluster stage, UNDER an existing rocket.       Saturn A-1 used a Saturn Cluster stage powered by 4 E-1 engines, and an all up Titan I missile with the warhead section replaced by a payload section.  

Taken from Wikipedia here is the early proposal for some of the various Saturn Rockets:

  • Saturn A
    • A-1 – Saturn lower stage, Titan second stage, and Centaur third stage (von Braun's original concept).     <--Von Braun HATED Centaur so I doubt this 3rd stage is accurate!  Rather I think this was added by Silverstein himself who is haled as the father of Centaur by some!
    • A-2 – Saturn lower stage, proposed clustered Jupiter second stage, and Centaur third stage.
  • Saturn B
    • B-1 – Saturn lower stage, proposed clustered Titan second stage, proposed S-IV third stage and Centaur fourth stage.
  • Saturn C
    • C-1 – Saturn lower stage, proposed S-IV second stage.

I did not include the latter Saturn C-x rockets as listed on Wikipedia because at the time Saturn A and B were still on the table, they (the Saturn C series) did not exist in the forms Wikipedia lists them in.   The changes were dictated by the (smart) cancellation of the E-1 Rocket engine

 C-2 was originally Saturn S-1 lower stage, S-III 2nd stage and S-IV 3rd Stage.

S-III (or S-3) is a twin Hydrolox powered BOOST stage designed to get the Payload and S-IV up the final distance out of the atmosphere and in game can be best represented by the Eyes turned Skyward alt history inspired parts for S-IVC (twin engine mount, and addendum tank) using standard J-2 engines... although at the time the question between J-2 and LR87 Hydrolox is still up in the air!

C-3 was a monster with either 6 E-1s or 2 F-1s in the First stage, S-2 (4 J-2 large Hydrolox Stage)  S-3 (as above) and S-IV

C-4 is a larger diameter F-1 Powered first Stage, using the rest of the C-3 Stack at the same larger diameter

C-5 was not on the list at this juncture!

AFTER JFK/LBJ's moon declaration (LBJ is likely who decided this and got JFK to go along and make it although just  a theory on my part)  We see The cancellation of E-1 (because it would delay F-1) and most of the C-series proposals get some MAJOR changes:

First off, the C-3 stack couldn't lift off the ground with the H-1 proposed as a replacement for the E-1 with a "useful payload"  Meaning that it would cost to much to launch any mass it could carry to space on it.  

As outlined in Wikipedia:

Saturn C

  • C-1 – Saturn lower stage, proposed S-IV second stage.
  • C-2 – Saturn lower stage, proposed S-II second stage, proposed S-IV third stage.
  • C-3, C-4, and C-5 – all based on different variations of a new lower stage using F-1 engines, variations of proposed S-II second stages, and proposed S-IV third stages.

 

 

My rocket below improves on that design by several points:

First stage is STRETCHED Saturn INT-14 tankage (14 foot stretch IIRC.)   Extra Fuel.   Still powered by the 4 of the E-1 Engines (tank from the BDB_Extras under the Pafftek Directory

Second Stage is a Titan III first stage with the engine replaced by the Vacuum LR87-AJ-11K (Due to issue with MM patching or it would be Hypergolic!)  (Hypergolic patch is not available yet due to issues like this)

Third Stage is the standard Titan III Second stage but with the LR91-AJ-9 from the Extras folder. (under the Titan AJ-9 folder)

Payload is an Agena with the 8096C engine and SOT tanks carrying a GIANT JX2 antenna equipped Communication Sat!

Here is the brief synopsis that is on Wikipeda (you will note that it does not mention anything about the Saturn program's turbulent changes due to quest for the moon speech or the cancellation of the E-1 nor does it mention anything post 1967, which I plan on covering today!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(rocket_family)

 

Ok so here is my first successful launch.  I want to be clear, part of the problem with my previous launches wasn't the build but rather Mechjeb.   I am showing more photos with the Gui in this so you can see how I keep Mechjeb from killing my launch... AGAIN.   BTW this is actually the SECOND successful launch as the first one got to orbit then I realized I had the wrong fuel in the Agena SOT tanks.   Even when you have everything right... if you change something.... Other things can default if you are not careful!   ALWAYS DOUBLE-CHECK YOUR ROCKETS!

x2RTlJN.jpg

Please note, I have made so many flights troubleshooting the 1st to 2nd stage seperation and Mechjeb control issues that some of the older flights might appear with the First stage....   ;)

Spoiler

VaI1UY0.jpg

Sadly the Stg 1 and 2 separation... I only had a photo from my first successful separation... and they are already a km apart when I got the photo!

IQGwo5z.jpg

 

dID280M.jpg

I was doing Abort tests for Saturn III (which will come in a future post and landed on the island in this picture....   )

rVCkIQS.jpg

So you will now see the Payload in all it's glory...  An Agena with SOTs carrying a 1.25m re-stock Probe core with two big antennas, the JX2 medium and the RA-100 (I think) 2x RLA RTGs and 2x Solar Panels from Nertea's Near Future Solar  I needed the extra length on the Solar panels because A) I don't trust RTGs and B) the JX2 antenna is huge (and this is the medium one!)

4O8lgL4.jpg

A few more views of the payload:

Tv2PwkS.jpg

I love how the JX2 antenna is translucent:

GoEWvOR.jpg

hk3h4K1.jpg

wkBIPgb.jpg

 

And by Luck or Crook, here is my final orbit of my Long Range Communication satellite around Duna:

1hjGOtc.jpg

Star-48BV has been used to make this.  I was on a fly-by trajectory without the Star-48 burn!   So when I say LUCK I do mean it!

Next up:  The Com-net constellation for Duna:

 

EDIT:  Realize that there is not as many Gui shots as I thought.  The trick with Mechjeb is it does not know/like Engine spool-up.  So Always set Mechjeb to stop auto-staging on the first stage with engine spool-up.  The LR87s have a long (10 second?) spool time.  Mechjeb just goes and starts staging other stages.  My trick was to use 4x of the big Titan 1 second stage Sep motors (on the cardinal points for SRM attachment on the Titan 1st stage) and tell Mechjeb to stop staging at stage 11 (the LR87 stage!)   After the LR87s were up to speed I then told mechjeb to stop staging at Stage 10 (the LR91 stage!)    Repeat ad nausium.   I want to be clear.   I LOVE the engine spool time!  I Want it kept!  However Mechjeb, while a great Autopilot... is pretty dumb.  It does not care for the engine spool times.  Like I said it is a simple thing we can all do when using Ascent guidance... 

 

Edited by Pappystein
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So I will get back to the Saturn Family in a latter post.   But since I have that nice big JX2 based Com sat in orbit of Duna (as part of my stages to the edge of JNSQ communication network)  I thought it would be worthwhile to place a Com network all around the planet.   The goal is to have nearly perfect radio coverage for my Probe cores to be able to operate anywhere on Duna with autoimmunity (AKA they require control so they need ability to access the radio network from anywhere!)

Now, learning a lesson from my Saturn A-1 launch I needed more D/V  (it was shear luck I made it there!)   So this mission is actually planned on a Duna mission.

The Rocket, is a LDC Titan with a Hypergolic First stage and 4x Algol SRMs to break 1.2 thrust to weight at launch

QNJUBz0.jpg

BQG7bHt.jpg

Spoiler

RpZwKr6.jpg

I always have a hard time getting the twin LR87s just right in the LDC 4 engine mount....

8fLdhng.jpg

2nd Stage is powered by two vacuum rated LR87s:

uMQEW3Z.jpg

And Third stage is as you all probably guessed a Growth Agena derivative.   Except this time I am using a 1.875m probe core from @Well's Knes mod.   And yes, that is a Centaur Dual Engine mount with two of the 8096C Agena Engines!

YOfvpWZ.jpg

Only 3 Solar panels because the 4th cardnial direction received a part not often seen in flight From BDB:

nSGaWv8.jpg

Yes that is the EVE flyby antenna on the "bottom" of the stage.  It is attached and folds through the space between the two large cylindrical tanks on the engine mount.   I even lined up the Centaur inter-stage so one of the cut-outs was inline with the antenna (because the joint poked out a tiny bit from the Centaur inter-stage.)

And a Year latter:

LXzpsKP.jpg

I with just enough fuel in the Growth Agena stage to start circularization.  No clue when it will fly out of coverage with that giant antenna on it but it is edge of the universe bound!

The Transtage gave me enough d/v that I was able to get in my eccentric orbit for Satellite deployment......

2LUdH74.jpg

That went a little wrong.   The outer circular orbit is my first IDCSP launch... I went posigrade instead of retrograde (Doh!)  Thankfully the RCS had enough propellant for me to at-least circularize it (no chance of a collision with the other IDCSP sats!)   The Giant partial circle is my big Com sat that will relay all the signal to Kerbin

A little note about deploying the IDCSP sats...  I still haven't perfected my deployment obviously but if you point the Nose of the sat "UP" you can use RCS and (for my flights) the J key to finish circularizing the sats.   I have over half of the sats in this deployment in a perfectly (less than 100m difference between Apoapsis and Periapsis) orbits.   If you don't have them in a Circular orbit....   Well here is my Kerbin network (remember it was a near-perfect star a few posts back)

oCXHbxd.jpg

Hope the tips help someone deploy IDCSP better!

 

I think it is safe to say we can skip the basic Saturn I/Ib and the Saturn V rockets.   So my next launch will be something that I kind of like (and others don't)   The Saturn II family.

 

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7 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I've been trying to figure that out too? If I knew I could time travel I'd have used it to make more parts...

 

EDIT: Reminder to all I'm planning on trying to stream starting ~8 AM Eastern tomorrow morning! :)

YAY I just found out I have no work tomorrow!   So will TRY to be on at GMT-5 aka 8AM eastern! :)

 

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20 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Little treat before I stream in the morning... tracking version of the Lunar Orbiter panel! There's a bit of a standoff since those panels mount really low profile to begin with.

j46UuRG.png

Wow I LIKE....   I just landed this:  And as you can see those panels that don't track cause issues with blind spots :)

SCg3mRe.jpg

But I have a question.....  it is a serious question.....  Do we call those the "badminton panels?"  :D

Ok now I am really serious.   I can not wait to use those!

Gah this "stay home Stay safe save lives" order kinda sucks for my sanity I guess.  But hey I do still get to go to work so I am better off than others (or worse depending on your point of view)  

 

 

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NASA Therapist: Gemini-Soyuz isn't real, it can't hurt you

Gemini-Soyuz:

JtjTr6K.png

Guest star: Vega!

Designed to serve as rescue contract vehicle that can be assembled at Science Tier 3 if you have both BDB and Tantares (you should!). Bad thrust balance is a known problem with Tantares, and this rocket does suffer from it. Not too much, though - all I had to do is lower RD-107s to 80% thrust.

It is designed for 200km circular orbit - in order to skip initial MJ rendezvous autopilot steps. Vega is used as service module. In theory, it can save two kerbals (i.e. complete two contracts with a single launch), but this would require a remote control suite.

ALSO: Please take a look at Gemini LES - it is extremely prone to exploding after jettison due to excessive G-forces.

Edited by biohazard15
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3 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

NASA Therapist: Gemini-Soyuz isn't real, it can't hurt you

YES IT CAN!

Nice design.  I like the use of Vega as a Service module.  Did you add extra Mono to Vega or just relying on what is in the Blue Gemini SM?  (Or what I Assume is the Blue Gemini SM, It could be a 1.875 to 1.5 Structural adapter. 

 

PS I have not noticed the concerns visa-v the Escape tower.    But then again, once it is jettisoned, if it clears my rocket I don't care anymore.   What Speed/Altitude are you kicking it to the curb?

Edited by Pappystein
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So  @biohazard15   I did 3+1 launches this AM.   A Gemini 2, (with the Agustus Cargo Module no way was I sacrificing Crew)  A LGM-118 Minotaur 6 with PBV and on a Inline SRMU 3 segment.    With the Gemini Escape tower auto-strutted, it didn't explode on all 3 launches.   I did a 2nd launch with Titan II hardware and kaboom (no Auto-struts)      So the Question,  What Rocket were you flying when it exploded?  And did you Auto-strut it?   Did you RIGID ATTACH? 

I also Jettisoned the Tower at MAX G forces (almost 8.5 on the SRMU)

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42 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

So  @biohazard15   I did 3+1 launches this AM.   A Gemini 2, (with the Agustus Cargo Module no way was I sacrificing Crew)  A LGM-118 Minotaur 6 with PBV and on a Inline SRMU 3 segment.    With the Gemini Escape tower auto-strutted, it didn't explode on all 3 launches.   I did a 2nd launch with Titan II hardware and kaboom (no Auto-struts)      So the Question,  What Rocket were you flying when it exploded?  And did you Auto-strut it?   Did you RIGID ATTACH? 

I also Jettisoned the Tower at MAX G forces (almost 8.5 on the SRMU)

 

You want Max Q not Max G

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8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Nice design.  I like the use of Vega as a Service module.  Did you add extra Mono to Vega or just relying on what is in the Blue Gemini SM?  (Or what I Assume is the Blue Gemini SM, It could be a 1.875 to 1.5 Structural adapter.

Thanks! This is indeed a Blue Gemini SM - typically used just as monoprop tank (Vega has a bit more than 1000 m\s dV after circularization), but can be used as second stage\emergency deorbit system if needed (I use DangIt on this playthrough, so fuel leak is a possibility!). I've tried to add Tantares "tube" forward\back thrusters to make it able to dock, but these eat too much monoprop. So no docking.

 

8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

PS I have not noticed the concerns visa-v the Escape tower.    But then again, once it is jettisoned, if it clears my rocket I don't care anymore.   What Speed/Altitude are you kicking it to the curb?

What happens is absolutely random explosion after I jettison it via staging. It may happen at any altitude. Or not. Log says that it failed "due to excessive G forces (90\50)".

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1 hour ago, biohazard15 said:

What happens is absolutely random explosion after I jettison it via staging. It may happen at any altitude. Or not. Log says that it failed "due to excessive G forces (90\50)".

So I have over 15 launches today with various rockets carrying Gemini and it's LES.   I haven't had that happen once.  So I guess my question is, are you using a 3rd party mod for rocket "rigidity" or are you using Rigid Attachment?   The only thing I have had success with is Auto-Strut,  And Auto-Strut alone.

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14 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

So I have over 15 launches today with various rockets carrying Gemini and it's LES.   I haven't had that happen once.  So I guess my question is, are you using a 3rd party mod for rocket "rigidity" or are you using Rigid Attachment?   The only thing I have had success with is Auto-Strut,  And Auto-Strut alone.

On this rocket, I don't use any form of structural enhancement (no need, even for boosters). I also don't use KJR or other such mods.

Rocket rigidity is not the cause here (I think). LES explodes after I jettison it. It flies forward (as it should), and then one of two things happen - it turns to clear the way (as it should) or explodes (as it shouldn't). Since log says "excessive G forces", I presume that it explodes while trying the aforementioned turn.

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As it stands now, OSO as shown in Friznit's wiki is non-functional - the core has only internal antenna, which means no science transmission. Not sure if it's a real issue or working as intended (you can always throw in a couple of Alouette antennas, for example).

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I downloaded Dev version from github. New Hermes's main chute can't deploy because it was stowed. How can I fix that? Rest of it worked fine until the last moment. I tried to launch it without drouge chute it was still stowed.

Also, I notice that all new scansat parts are not compatable with scaled solarsystem mod. I use JNSQ but all of the parts show stock scale altitude. If it possible can you add config files for some popular scale in BDB extra folder atleast in the release version?

Edited by derega16
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JNSQ rescales the ScanSat altitudes, and that works on our parts as well. From what I can see the Mercury main chute deploys just fine even if the drogue is still blocking it. Sounds like you've got something wrong in your install.

Welcome to the forums!

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4 hours ago, derega16 said:

New Hermes's main chute can't deploy because it was stowed. How can I fix that? Rest of it worked fine until the last moment.

Welcome to the forums!

Seems like your staging is set wrong. Recovery module comes with a built-in decoupler for a nose unit. It should be staged before or together with main chute. Normally you want the latter, thus simultaneusly jettisoning drogue and deploying main chute.

Recommended staging order for new Mercury is the following:

  • Stage 0: RM decoupler, main chute, landing bag arming (the wheel icon from heatshield). Activate after drogue has fully opened (I usually do this at 4000-3500 m)
  • Stage 1: Drogue chute
  • Stage 2: Retro pack (decoupler)
  • Stage 3: Retro motors
  • Stage 4: Kick motors, capsule decoupler\interstage
  • Stage 5 and below: booster stages and LES jettison
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