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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.10.4 "Луна" 19/July/2022)


CobaltWolf
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So, taking a little break after releasing History of Spaceflight (no shameless promotion here, not at all), I spent some time actually playing again.

And of course, I just had to try to build some really early rockets, using BDB parts. This is in career mode, so I am heavily limited by the parts available at the start.

Some of the early rockets are therefore really hard to approximate, but I think a few were quite successful. I give you:

 

Viking

prIXT0G.png

 

Nike-Ajax

jF595FG.png

 

Nike-Ajax in flight - it's performance is actually pretty crap, but at least it looks almost right.

BybeX0b.jpg

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2 hours ago, Morphisor said:

So, taking a little break after releasing History of Spaceflight (no shameless promotion here, not at all), I spent some time actually playing again.

And of course, I just had to try to build some really early rockets, using BDB parts. This is in career mode, so I am heavily limited by the parts available at the start.

Some of the early rockets are therefore really hard to approximate, but I think a few were quite successful. I give you:

 

Viking

 

 

Nike-Ajax

jF595FG.png

 

Nike-Ajax in flight - it's performance is actually pretty crap, but at least it looks almost right.

 

errr... Wheres the Solids!  :)    Now you need to cluster 4 of your Ajax Boosters to make a Nike-Hercules!

Really cool what you did.   It is too bad the Stock Tech tree has Jet engines SO FAR BACK... because with Tweakscale you could also make a Talos (and like the Ajax, it gave it's soild booster to many a Sounding rocket!)

 

Edited by Pappystein
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Stream's over, thanks everyone for coming! Still a lot to do before the basic Gemini is in game, but here's some looks at what got done today:

DvP8guy.png
LdX1FCc.png

 

WIP bag for the main chute

pDOTgbz.png

 

OAMS thruster

7xR9ByU.png

 

Toggle to add the extra portholes for the Gemini-Interceptor from the Blue Gemini novels. Some of the MORL Ferry designs also featured these.

GHuUcJK.png

 

Messing around a bit with variant possibilities...

xkwjbQ6.png
Tird2ud.png

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Not quite a new Gemini in game but while you wait some Smol 0.625m fairings for smol payloads is on github now.

From left to right

1-3. "bulbous" fairings for Able. The first was used for Pioneer P3 on Atlas Able at least. Seen the second on Thor Able a lot and the third the pics Ive seen were mostly atlas able.

4. Able conical aerodynamic fairing (the bulbous fairings were known to be very draggy and so the aerodynamic ones were preferred when the payload would allow.)

5. Able hemispherical aerodynamic fairing

6. Thor Burner I fairing also used on some scouts

7. Scout long fairing (I think used on later ones mostly, it flew with a few different ones)

8 Vanguard which was already uploaded earlier but put it together for the 0.625m family photo.

 Except for vanguard all of the others are B9 switches on the standard 0.625m base

screenshot1567.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1571.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1573.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1574.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1576.png?width=1443&height=811

 

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41 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

errr... Wheres the Solids!  :)    Now you need to cluster 4 of your Ajax Boosters to make a Nike-Hercules!

Really cool what you did.   It is too bad the Stock Tech tree has Jet engines SO FAR BACK... because with Tweakscale you could also make a Talos (and like the Ajax, it gave it's soild booster to many a Sounding rocket!)

 

Sadly no suitable solids at the start of career, just the Sergeants and they're too small and non-tweakable. Vanguard parts are tweakable and so easiest to (ab)use. I may re-do the bunch once I've got some proper stuff unlocked.

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13 minutes ago, Morphisor said:

Sadly no suitable solids at the start of career, just the Sergeants and they're too small and non-tweakable. Vanguard parts are tweakable and so easiest to (ab)use. I may re-do the bunch once I've got some proper stuff unlocked.

I've been wanting smaller solids for augmenting Vanguard and Redstone...

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

I've been wanting smaller solids for augmenting Vanguard and Redstone...

@CobaltWolf  I know this isn't planed in your current Dev cycle but I thought I would crank out the data as soon as I saw your post:     Gets data:

Talos booster is from the silver ring BEHIND the middle fins back:  So it is short but:

US_Rim-8g_missile.jpg

The booster works out to ~0.5mx2m at 0.64 KSP scale (well 0.454 x 1.965m)  And has a quick burn (so high thrust over 5 second!) 

I think the thrust would end up being ~160kn (real is 516k) over those 5 seconds.

Some fun history on the above:  https://www.okieboat.com/Booster History.html

The guy who made this page made a Museum detailed 1:96 scale boat and did it in CAD so there are a lot of 3d drawings of the USS Oklahoma City and the Talos on his pages.   I think his 6" Turrets are amazing as they were the first time I actually saw the correct gun-house shape on a scale model!  

 

Probably more appropriately (and about 1/3rd the thrust) is the Nike booster used on both the Nike-Ajax and the Nike-Hercules. 

Nike-cajun.jpgNike_Ajax_missile.jpg

Again 0.5m in KSP but approximately 4meters long.   Thrust is 217kn Real world or about 70-80kn in KSP.  But the burn time is significantly longer

And yes, on the Belgian Ajax you can see that it was hot staged and the Nike booster is actually BLUNT!

If you combine 4 of these into a single square pack you get the Nike Hercules booster (which latter had different solid fuel assembly so even though it was the same basic motor, the Hercules ended up with more than 4x the thrust!.  That would end up being a slightly larger than a square 0.9375m in KSP... so a viable alternative to the Algol being 0.9375?  

And of course well all know all Successful members of the Nike family... Flew on the Nike Ajax booster!   :)  No Nike-Spartans here!

RIM-2 Terrier has an advantage because over it's life.. it's sucessor had the same dimensions with a much higher powered engine (RIM-67 Standard ER)

However it is TINY in comparison to the other rockets on this post with:

RIM-2_Terrier.jpg

Display models of the early RIM-2A Terrier... Easy to see booster from the Missile!)

Dimensions are 18x155 inches (or 0.3x2.5m at 0.64scale)  So long and THIN.   Thrust is 258kn IRL so like Talos above.. Fast burning and lots of power!

Here is a close up of the more modern RIM-67B or C (can't tell which but credited as a B) with the latter Mk70 (Longer thrust version of the above solid rocket motor... About the same thrust but much higher isp.(and yes this is only the top foot of the booster, but any details that might be wanted on it are here)

RIM-67B_Standard.JPEG

 

 

 

Beyond these two... All the early Solids that are "Small" that I can think of are already in BDB.   (at least all the American ones that were used in space launches!)   Well except for maybe a REAL Sergeant:

Sergeant_missile.jpg

In game Diameter is AGAIN 0.5m.   And thrust is IRL again 200kn so about 70kn in game.  The Length on this is 3.1m at the 0.64 scale again.   Game mass with fuel should be about 900 to 1100kg (3135kg Real world)

So if you want to slap one of these together, I think Nike Booster has the simplest engine (it is a fixed single cone with sharp edges)  Talos has a bunch of "vent" holes that ring the edge of the thrust cone (on the bottom) so fidgety detail.  And I am uncertain about the real Sergeant which I am guessing is almost identical to the "baby" Sergeants already in the DB.  (arguably you could just scale and stretch one of those with a new CFG to "Hack" a new booster into the game.)  Then all that would be needed is some sort of Nosecone for them.

And now I am wondering if the Mk70 Booster, had it been available in the 1950s... Could it have put explorer 1 and the baby Sergeants up by itself?!   Burn time is ~25 seconds and the Rocket would be in the upper atmosphere at burnout (much like Juno) 

 

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5 hours ago, Zorg said:

Not quite a new Gemini in game but while you wait some Smol 0.625m fairings for smol payloads is on github now.

From left to right

1-3. "bulbous" fairings for Able. The first was used for Pioneer P3 on Atlas Able at least. Seen the second on Thor Able a lot and the third the pics Ive seen were mostly atlas able.

4. Able conical aerodynamic fairing (the bulbous fairings were known to be very draggy and so the aerodynamic ones were preferred when the payload would allow.)

5. Able hemispherical aerodynamic fairing

6. Thor Burner I fairing also used on some scouts

7. Scout long fairing (I think used on later ones mostly, it flew with a few different ones)

8 Vanguard which was already uploaded earlier but put it together for the 0.625m family photo.

 Except for vanguard all of the others are B9 switches on the standard 0.625m base

screenshot1567.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1571.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1573.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1574.png?width=1443&height=811

screenshot1576.png?width=1443&height=811

 

Will these be included in the next official release of Bluedog or is this a seperate prject you work on?

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3 hours ago, Jso said:

We assimilated the Zorg a while ago. It's all official.

um... I didn't know BDB was part of the Kolektive!   But then again... Borg makes more sense in the name than Bluedog :sticktongue:

So does this make Zorg, 4 of many?

 

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50 minutes ago, Mountain Parrot said:

Gemini B is gonna be in 1.7 right... right... ?

If we are lucky,  Gemini Z will be as well :)    Ok joking aside, Cobalt has mentioned plenty of times on dev streams as well as in channel (looks for Gemini checklist on Github) https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/issues/864

Yep listed.   

 

BTW welcome to the forums (well 2 months ago but still!)   For what it is worth you can find most projects in KSP have either a link to a Github, or another site (documents in Google Sheets, Pastebin and Dropbox being common methods) with a "Plan of updates" on the first post of the Forum thread.     Hope that helps in the future.  While I am not proficient at Github (looks at "Sandstone" Launch clamps in the BDB-Extras folders...   Looks over at Jso and re-thanks yet again for fixing my mistakes in Github)    It is a GREAT place to see the status of the project, and if you can you can contribute with information, Ideas or a great way to report problems with a mod.

 

Oh it also helps that Like most great mod-developers, Cobalt actually communicates back and forth with us! 

 

PS I thought I would like the full "BDB 1.7 Milestone" Github entry list as well so you all can see what is Planned at the current time for the 1.7 release:

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/milestone/12

 

Lastly, Please keep asking the questions!   <--- NOT A JOKE!   You can't learn if you don't ask!

Eventually we will get to 42!   Ok this line was a bad joke.   Runs and hides with copy of Hitchhikers Guide Omnibus.

 

 

Edited by Pappystein
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I built another couple of early rocket reproductions today, hope they live up to your expectations @Pappystein ;)

While again very limited by the tech level which hasn't yet changed, I did add the excellent CNAR parts by @DylanSemrau. They really fit in well and are very scalable.

 

First up, the prototype Hermes missile, a V-2 derivative. I think I managed to get pretty close; but the scale is a little too big by comparison to achieve this. Ingame, it's a combination of some Etoh parts and CNAR. It's also scary fast.

Hermes_A-1_Test_Rockets_-_GPN-2000-00006KgsRDi8.png

s5416PZ.png

 

And second is the MGM-5 Corporal, one of the first operational ballistic missiles. This one combines the Vanguard parts with CNAR, to make a really elegant, if a bit slow missile. But then the real thing wasn't exactly top of its class either.

N8_QepSVZx6zgpEvkbcfIJEN3q_HoAmrcGfI1n77

PUUdly4.png

Qm5KRbP.png

U57q9au.png

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I'm confuse about titan III and IV launch sequence. Both part description and real launch sequence doccument said the mainengine is air start 10s before SRB seperation but nearly all real launch photos I found show it start at launch on the pad with march diamonds between two SRB plumes. Which one is more accurate and how much performance difference between these two?

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57 minutes ago, derega16 said:

I'm confuse about titan III and IV launch sequence. Both part description and real launch sequence doccument said the mainengine is air start 10s before SRB seperation but nearly all real launch photos I found show it start at launch on the pad with march diamonds between two SRB plumes. Which one is more accurate and how much performance difference between these two?

Mind sharing these nefarious images?

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58 minutes ago, derega16 said:

I'm confuse about titan III and IV launch sequence. Both part description and real launch sequence doccument said the mainengine is air start 10s before SRB seperation but nearly all real launch photos I found show it start at launch on the pad with march diamonds between two SRB plumes. Which one is more accurate and how much performance difference between these two?

I think you’re a bit confused. They aren’t Mach diamonds that you’re seeing, but rather most likely the heat from the solids interacting with the core engines to get some smoke. It does look a bit like they’re active but I promise they’re not :)

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43 minutes ago, derega16 said:

I'm confuse about titan III and IV launch sequence. Both part description and real launch sequence doccument said the mainengine is air start 10s before SRB seperation but nearly all real launch photos I found show it start at launch on the pad with march diamonds between two SRB plumes. Which one is more accurate and how much performance difference between these two?

The 1st core stage was definitely air-lit, AFAIK there were no Titan III/IV launches with it ground-lit. Some unflown Titan-derived proposals did have their core engines ground lit, though (LDC, Barbarian, 3L)

What do you mean by "march diamonds"? I took a look at some launch photos where you can clearly see LR-87 at launch (Wikipedia has two good examples for IIIC and 34D), and there are nothing I would describe as "march diamonds".

As for performance - launching Titan III with typical payload and with both SRB and core ground-lit is overkill in JNSQ-sized rescale, not to mention stock. YMMV, of course.

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720px-Titan-3C_MOL-Gemini-B-Test_3.jpg

S2000084-Launch_of_a_Titan_IV_rocket.jpg

7 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

The 1st core stage was definitely air-lit, AFAIK there were no Titan III/IV launches with it ground-lit. Some unflown Titan-derived proposals did have their core engines ground lit, though (LDC, Barbarian, 3L)

What do you mean by "march diamonds"? I took a look at some launch photos where you can clearly see LR-87 at launch (Wikipedia has two good examples for IIIC and 34D), and there are nothing I would describe as "march diamonds".

As for performance - launching Titan III with typical payload and with both SRB and core ground-lit is overkill in JNSQ-sized rescale, not to mention stock. YMMV, of course.

Might be SRB Plume interaction but it looks like LR-87 is already lit

Edited by derega16
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29 minutes ago, derega16 said:

Might be SRB Plume interaction but it looks like LR-87 is already lit

All available official documents as far as I know refer to air started liquid cores for Titan III (with solids) and Titan IV. This is for instance from the Titan IV payload planners guide

Screenshot_2020-04-06_19.02.09.png?width

My suspicion is that the images you're seeing are either recirculating smoke from the SRB exhaust or possibly the ablative coating on the LR87 engine burning away due to the heat from the SRBs or possibly a combination of the two. Perhaps @CobaltWolf might chime in with a further insight.

I'm leaning more towards burning ablator on the non active engine.

For comparison a III-B with running LR87.

t23b08.jpg

EDIT: From the Titan III users guide

Screenshot_2020-04-06_19.16.19.png?width

 

 

Edited by Zorg
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7 hours ago, Mountain Parrot said:

Gemini B is gonna be in 1.7 right... right... ?

Yes, my goal is to get back to the current Gemini functionality but not much more besides necessary-but-missing parts (a proper Big G decoupler for ex)

Also, in case people were wondering, I don't think I'll be doing anything with the MOL/Gemini station parts added last update, apart from maybe the odd tweak here or there to work with the new models.

 

1 hour ago, derega16 said:

I'm confuse about titan III and IV launch sequence. Both part description and real launch sequence doccument said the mainengine is air start 10s before SRB seperation but nearly all real launch photos I found show it start at launch on the pad with march diamonds between two SRB plumes. Which one is more accurate and how much performance difference between these two?

32 minutes ago, derega16 said:

Might be SRB Plume interaction but it looks like LR-87 is already lit

15 minutes ago, Zorg said:

All available official documents as far as I know refer to air started liquid cores for Titan III (with solids) and Titan IV. This is for instance from the Titan IV payload planners guide

My suspicion is that the images you're seeing are either recirculating smoke from the SRB exhaust or possibly the ablative coating on the LR87 engine burning away due to the heat from the SRBs or possibly a combination of the two. Perhaps @CobaltWolf might chime in with a further insight.

I'm leaning more towards burning ablator on the non active engine.

For comparison a III-B with running LR87.

All I can say is "every document I've ever seen says the engines are air lit. There are no solid-boosted Titans that start their engines on the ground".

My theory is maybe they're venting one of the propellants to make sure the nozzles are primed for the hypergolic ignition.

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