[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[Zorg]

22 hours ago, Starhelperdude said:

would it be possible that the micrometeorite shield on the skylab wetlab OWS could act as an insulation, like on centaur-D?

I'm currently building a lunar wetlab skylab and I'm worried about the boiloff (I don't wan't to deactivate it, I want to find an in-universe-solution for it)

Yeah this is how its supposed to work as it is providing thermal shielding in addition to MM protection and so would provide some boiloff mitigation. Im just starting to take a close look at Skylab balancing and it looks like the necessary module for linking boiloff to the insulation isn't in there on the lightweight wet workshop (VFB version) but it IS there on the regular wet workshop (but misconfigured). Will add it to the VFB one and balancing needs to be looked at for the WWS too.

But dont expect miracles. Realistically we should probably be looking at something similar to Centaur D. I will assume the shielding on the wet workshop versions has extra insulation over and above the historical version for the liquid hydrogen.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Zorg

[OrbitalManeuvers]

22 hours ago, Starhelperdude said:

I'm worried about the boiloff (I don't wan't to deactivate it, I want to find an in-universe-solution for it)

isn't this what CryoTanks does for BDB? I think that's what's giving me "Enable Cooling" on tanks

[Zorg]

2 minutes ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

isn't this what CryoTanks does for BDB? I think that's what's giving me "Enable Cooling" on tanks

BDB avoids getting patched with the CryoTanks boiloff module in favour of our own. If you have cryo cooling on BDB stuff it must be a 3rd party patch from some other mod.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Zorg

[pTrevTrevs]

If we’re talking about QOL and polishing work, has anybody else had trouble getting the LM ascent stage back into orbit in 2.5x scale games? Seems to me like it just doesn’t have the fuel to make it back up there. To be fair, my LMs have been flying with extra stuff added on, a small RTG for consistent electrical power, consumables storage for Kerbalism life support, et cetera, and have been launching into a retrograde orbit, but none of that should matter enough to keep them out of orbit…

[OrbitalManeuvers]

32 minutes ago, Zorg said:

BDB avoids getting patched with the CryoTanks boiloff module in favour of our own. If you have cryo cooling on BDB stuff it must be a 3rd party patch from some other mod.

I definitely do have it, and I really shouldn't have any other mods that know about LH2 except for CryoTanks, but clearly I've missed something. Is this worth pursuing?

Spoiler

 

[KeaKaka]

Well today has been interesting.

About a week ago I was pulling my hair out over the Saturn IB, and the fact that it seemed to be completely unable to deliver a CSM or anything for that matter to LKO in JNSQ. I tried reducing tank loads, increasing tank loads, following Zorg's ascent profile instructions to the letter, but whatever I did the Saturn just did not have enough Dv to reach orbit.

Yesterday I upgraded to KSRSS 2.5x.

Today, with the exact same configuration, I can reach LEO with still a fair amount of Dv left in the S-IVB.

I am moderately confused.

 

[lemon cup]

1 minute ago, KeaKaka said:

Well today has been interesting.

About a week ago I was pulling my hair out over the Saturn IB, and the fact that it seemed to be completely unable to deliver a CSM or anything for that matter to LKO in JNSQ. I tried reducing tank loads, increasing tank loads, following Zorg's ascent profile instructions to the letter, but whatever I did the Saturn just did not have enough Dv to reach orbit.

Yesterday I upgraded to KSRSS 2.5x.

Today, with the exact same configuration, I can reach LEO with still a fair amount of Dv left in the S-IVB.

I am moderately confused.

 

That is quite confusing… 

In JNSQ I budget about 4700m/s to reach orbit.

KSRSS 2.5x takes around 5000m/s for me on the safe side.

 

35 minutes ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

I definitely do have it, and I really shouldn't have any other mods that know about LH2 except for CryoTanks, but clearly I've missed something. Is this worth pursuing?

  Hide contents

 

There is a patch included in the BDB_Extras folder that converts BDB tanks to use the CryoTanks boil-off system. You would have had to manually put it somewhere in your GameData folder. Maybe you did this at some point and forgot about when/where?

[OrbitalManeuvers]

3 minutes ago, lemon cup said:

There is a patch included in the BDB_Extras folder that converts BDB tanks to use the CryoTanks boil-off system. You would have had to manually put it somewhere in your GameData folder. Maybe you did this at some point and forgot about when/where?

eeeeeeeYUP. You win. I have that one and the OGO one. 

[Zorg]

13 minutes ago, KeaKaka said:

Well today has been interesting.

About a week ago I was pulling my hair out over the Saturn IB, and the fact that it seemed to be completely unable to deliver a CSM or anything for that matter to LKO in JNSQ. I tried reducing tank loads, increasing tank loads, following Zorg's ascent profile instructions to the letter, but whatever I did the Saturn just did not have enough Dv to reach orbit.

Yesterday I upgraded to KSRSS 2.5x.

Today, with the exact same configuration, I can reach LEO with still a fair amount of Dv left in the S-IVB.

I am moderately confused.

 

JNSQ is I believe slightly more demanding as its 2.7x scale vs 2.5x on KSRSS. Anyway we still use JNSQ for balance reference. We're just about to start seriously working on that.

[KeaKaka]

Well, seen as I'm here, might as well pay the screnshot tax:

[pTrevTrevs]

Apollo 16 Part 1: Descartes Before the Horse:

After five lunar landings, NASA geologists were finally confident that they understood the formation of the lunar mare, vast lava flows covering the lowest points on the surface. With two landings in lunar mare, Apollos 11 and 12, two more at the edges of the mare regions, Apollos 14 and 15, and a further fifth, Apollo 13, at a formation created by the same impact which formed Mare Imbrium, the wealth of material and information available on these regions was incredible. Now, researchers turned towards the lunar highlands, where it was believed that evidence regarding the pre-mare history of the Moon could be uncovered. While Apollos 13 and 15 had recovered pre-mare lunar material, no mission had actually visited the highland region itself. Of particular interest to the planners of Apollo 16 was a region that had been under consideration as a landing site ever since the pinpoint landing technique was first proven by Apollo 12, Descartes. Descartes was much further south than any previous landing site, meaning that its material would be uncontaminated by ejecta from the Imbrium impact. Moreover, the Descartes formation the the adjacent Cayley Plains were suspected to have been formed through lunar volcanism, although only samples from the area could provide conclusive evidence for this theory. Thus the objectives for Apollo 16 were clear: sample Cayley-Descartes and determine the presence of volcanic activity in the region. Launch was scheduled for late March, 1972.

Quote

Technical complications nearly caused the launch to be delayed into late April, as technicians uncovered a problem with Saturn V SA-511's Instrument Unit. Closer investigation revealed the problems to be relatively minor, affecting the IU's reaction wheel assembly. The problem was easily fixed, and should the IU fail in flight it could be assisted by the Command Module guidance system anyway. The countdown proceeded as planned, and Apollo 16 launched on a clear afternoon bound for Descartes.

Launch, orbit, and TLI proceeded without issue, with the IU performing adequately. Although some trouble arose when trying to maneuver the vehicle, the S-IVB's APS thrusters easily took over vehicle control and kept it on course.

One hour after launch, CSM Casper retrieved LM Orion from the Saturn third stage, which was then redirected to impact the Moon according to standard protocol.

Shortly before LOI, the panel protecting Casper's SIM bay it jettisoned. The experiment suite is identical to Apollo 15's.

Up to this point, the mission has gone virtually without incident. Casper placed the combined craft in an elliptical descent orbit and the crew powered up Orion for the landing. It was at this time, however, that the command module pilot detected oscillations in the SPS's backup gimbal system. Under normal rules, the landing would need to be aborted and the Lunar Module would be used to return to Earth.

With the two craft stationkeeping in orbit, mission controllers frantically search for a solution that will allow the landing to proceed. Time is short, however, the sun is rising over Descartes and if they wait too long, the lighting conditions will be too poor to land.

And so they wait...

And wait...

And wait.

In the descent orbit, Casper and Orion skim over the lunar mountaintops, at one point the astronauts spot the shadows of their spacecraft flying across the surface. There is no imminent danger, but the longer the CSM stays in this orbit the more unpredictable its trajectory will become, as the rotation of the Moon takes its orbital track further west, into unfamiliar terrain which could be higher than Casper's orbital altitude.

Finally the word from Houston comes through. The gimbal malfunction cannot be fixed, but it can be worked around, and with only the backup system experiencing the problem the landing can go ahead. Nearly six hours of valuable time has passed, but '16 still has its chance to uncover the secrets of Descartes.

The landing site at Descartes is situated between two relatively young craters, named North Ray and South Ray, which would have punched through the regolith and exposed the bedrock underneath for sampling. To the south of the landing site is the imposing Stone Mountain, while the scattered hills to the north were named the Smoky Mountains.

Following the landing, the crew powered down the LM to conserve battery power during the surface stay, and then prepared for sleep. While the original flight plan called for them to begin EVA 1 immediately after touchdown, the delay in orbit meant that this would keep them awake far longer than was healthy, so the spacewalk was pushed back to allow the crew some rest.

Meanwhile Casper recircularizes its orbit and begins the three-day orbital observation schedule. 

 

Quote

Several hours behind schedule, the landing crew steps onto the surface for the first time. This flight carries still another major upgrade to the television cameras used for filming the moonwalks. Unlike previous missions, Apollo 16's TV footage will be streamed to an independent studio in California which will clean up the image, using computer programs to remove noise and blurriness before beaming it directly to Houston and the general public. All this happens in a few short seconds, and the result is a fantastically crisp image hitherto unseen in spaceflight. If only the networks were still carrying it...

The first order of business is the deployment of the LRV. After that, the ALSEP and flag go up, and then a short geological traverse to the west before ending the day's work.

The rover is unpacked without issue, and a short test drive confirms all its systems are in working order.

The crew then sets up the flag...

...and creates one of the most iconic photos of the Apollo era. Too bad I can't make the Kerbals salute in midair. Ah well, you people know which photo I'm trying to recreate here.

A site for the ALSEP is decided upon, about 80 meters to the southwest, and the rover ferries over the equipment in a few trips.

Not much to say about the ALSEP at this point; in fact I've already collected basically all the deployed ground science from the Moon that I can, so I'm only even doing this part for authenticity's sake.

Still hoping somebody chooses to revive the old SEP mod though, it'd be great to have a proper ALSEP again.

With the ALSEP activated, the two set off to the west to visit the area around Flag crater. This location isn't terribly significant; it is neither distinctly Cayley nor Descartes, however on this excursion the astronauts recover the largest single sample returned by an Apollo crew. This sample is 26-pound, football-sized rock nicknamed 'Big Muley", after Bill Muehlberger, the Apollo 16 field geology team leader.

Arriving back at the ALSEP site, the LMP disembarks and sets up a 16mm camera. Engineers back home have requested high-FPS footage of the lunar rover operating on the Moon, and this part of the EVA has been set aside to get it. The so-called Lunar Grand Prix involves the commander driving the rover around the site performing certain maneuvers with it to demonstrate its capabilities.

After finishing the Grand Prix, the crew drive the rover back to Orion and park it for the night. EVA 1 is complete, and while it has been mostly successful one big objective remains unfulfilled. Despite the intensive search, the crew had yet to find a single piece of volcanic material. If the two subsequent moonwalks can't uncover any either, geologists will be forced to completely rethink their hypothesis on the formation of the central highlands...

 

 

[Doc Shaftoe]

@pTrevTrevs How did you make your Lunar Rover? I can't quite figure it out from the fantastic pictures you've posted.

[Staticalliam7]

22 minutes ago, Doc Shaftoe said:

@pTrevTrevs How did you make your Lunar Rover? I can't quite figure it out from the fantastic pictures you've posted.

Looks like structural panels, chairs, some sort of science equipment, and the apollo rover wheels

I may be wrong though

 

[pTrevTrevs]

1 hour ago, Doc Shaftoe said:

@pTrevTrevs How did you make your Lunar Rover? I can't quite figure it out from the fantastic pictures you've posted.

 

1 hour ago, Staticalliam7 said:

Looks like structural panels, chairs, some sort of science equipment, and the apollo rover wheels

I may be wrong though

 

I built it in the SPH around one of the structural panels from Making History. The hinges which allow the back and front to unfold are from the SOCK Canadarm, and those sections themselves are built around a backbone of cubic struts. The rover wheels are also Making History, and the greebles on the rover are mostly from BDB. The foil-covered boxes on the front are Pioneer Orbiter parts, the deck at the back holding the surface scanner is the Skylab/Spacelab science pallet, the high-gain antenna is from Strawman (best I could do, given the circumstances), and the seat backings are Ranger batteries. I folded the whole thing up according to the real LRV's design, slapped a decoupler on the bottom, attached a structural panel and a regular hinge, saved the whole thing as a subassembly, and imported it to the VAB where I mated it to the LM's descent stage.

@CobaltWolf, next time somebody asks you to make the LRV, direct them to this post and tell them that if I can figure this out so can they.

[Staticalliam7]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

 

I built it in the SPH around one of the structural panels from Making History. The hinges which allow the back and front to unfold are from the SOCK Canadarm, and those sections themselves are built around a backbone of cubic struts. The rover wheels are also Making History, and the greebles on the rover are mostly from BDB. The foil-covered boxes on the front are Pioneer Orbiter parts, the deck at the back holding the surface scanner is the Skylab/Spacelab science pallet, the high-gain antenna is from Strawman (best I could do, given the circumstances), and the seat backings are Ranger batteries. I folded the whole thing up according to the real LRV's design, slapped a decoupler on the bottom, attached a structural panel and a regular hinge, saved the whole thing as a subassembly, and imported it to the VAB where I mated it to the LM's descent stage.

@CobaltWolf, next time somebody asks you to make the LRV, direct them to this post and tell them that if I can figure this out so can they.

Whatever it's made of, it sure looks nice

[TruthfulGnome]

Any chance we could get a Wet /Dry OWS config for the normal S-IVB? 

[Friznit]

2 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

 

I built it in the SPH around one of the structural panels from Making History. The hinges which allow the back and front to unfold are from the SOCK Canadarm, and those sections themselves are built around a backbone of cubic struts. The rover wheels are also Making History, and the greebles on the rover are mostly from BDB. The foil-covered boxes on the front are Pioneer Orbiter parts, the deck at the back holding the surface scanner is the Skylab/Spacelab science pallet, the high-gain antenna is from Strawman (best I could do, given the circumstances), and the seat backings are Ranger batteries. I folded the whole thing up according to the real LRV's design, slapped a decoupler on the bottom, attached a structural panel and a regular hinge, saved the whole thing as a subassembly, and imported it to the VAB where I mated it to the LM's descent stage.

@CobaltWolf, next time somebody asks you to make the LRV, direct them to this post and tell them that if I can figure this out so can they.

I'd happily add it to the wiki guide but then half the fun is figuring these things out for yourself!

[Doc Shaftoe]

@pTrevTrevs I never thought to use the SOCK hinges that way, but it's sort of a no-brainer now that you mention it. Have you had any problems with the hinge sagging at all while the rover is underway? The ones I've built using the stock hinges tend to go a little "weak at the knees."

Kudos on your Apollo replicas btw! I haven't quite reached the Apollo program in my current campaign, but I'm getting there! 

 

Screenshot tax included:

Spoiler

 

[Zorg]

15 hours ago, KeaKaka said:

Well today has been interesting.

About a week ago I was pulling my hair out over the Saturn IB, and the fact that it seemed to be completely unable to deliver a CSM or anything for that matter to LKO in JNSQ. I tried reducing tank loads, increasing tank loads, following Zorg's ascent profile instructions to the letter, but whatever I did the Saturn just did not have enough Dv to reach orbit.

Yesterday I upgraded to KSRSS 2.5x.

Today, with the exact same configuration, I can reach LEO with still a fair amount of Dv left in the S-IVB.

I am moderately confused.

 

Are you playing with life support? I managed to get to LKO in JNSQ 120x120 at 90 deg just now with 50m/s left. Orbital config of the CSM, abort tower jettisoned immediately after S4B sep.

100m/s pitch start, 0.5deg/s pitch rate

The performance is very marginal though. 50 m/s spare at the end. And its not enough to meet the Apollo 7 equivalent 128x146km 32 deg orbit. We may need to do something here but will probably need to wait for JSO to take a closer look.

edit: On the other hand... it seems to comfortably get into orbit in KSRSS launching from Kennedy. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Zorg

[Cheesecake]

7 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

 

I built it in the SPH around one of the structural panels from Making History. The hinges which allow the back and front to unfold are from the SOCK Canadarm, and those sections themselves are built around a backbone of cubic struts. The rover wheels are also Making History, and the greebles on the rover are mostly from BDB. The foil-covered boxes on the front are Pioneer Orbiter parts, the deck at the back holding the surface scanner is the Skylab/Spacelab science pallet, the high-gain antenna is from Strawman (best I could do, given the circumstances), and the seat backings are Ranger batteries. I folded the whole thing up according to the real LRV's design, slapped a decoupler on the bottom, attached a structural panel and a regular hinge, saved the whole thing as a subassembly, and imported it to the VAB where I mated it to the LM's descent stage.

@CobaltWolf, next time somebody asks you to make the LRV, direct them to this post and tell them that if I can figure this out so can they.

A little note: I have a similar design for my rover. There is a foldable seat from ASET. Perfect for LRV.

[pTrevTrevs]

3 hours ago, Doc Shaftoe said:

@pTrevTrevs I never thought to use the SOCK hinges that way, but it's sort of a no-brainer now that you mention it. Have you had any problems with the hinge sagging at all while the rover is underway? The ones I've built using the stock hinges tend to go a little "weak at the knees."

Kudos on your Apollo replicas btw! I haven't quite reached the Apollo program in my current campaign, but I'm getting there! 

 

Screenshot tax included:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Haven’t had any problems with sagging so far; usually I lock the hinges once they’re unfolded.

[Pappystein]

On 1/18/2022 at 4:09 AM, Beccab said:

Would it be feasible do add partial insulation to the J2s of the S-II stage? It looks like they had it on top of the fire wall, at least on this pic of the Apollo 13 S-II

If you are referring to the "white" areas above the bells in the engine bay those are all part of the Flame deflector system (the big plate between the engines on the S-II stage.)   It is possible that there are temporary structures to maintain J-2 alignment in there as well.  Things that would be removed just before S-II and S-IC stage integration.   J-2s never had any Asbestos ablative insulation like the F-1s did.   the White color you are seeing is likely due to this either A) being an early S-II, before they started leaving them zinc Chromate green only. or a trick of lighting  because of the higher reflective index of the paint coating vs the surrounding (like all the "shadow" pictures from the moon that drive the conspiracy idiots nutz and thinking we faked the moon landing.

 

On 1/18/2022 at 11:55 PM, SpaceFace545 said:

I don't think so. The RL-10 variants are just statistic changes linked to a model change. If done on the J2 you would also have to incorporate animation modules. 

IIRC some of those J2 variants such as the HG3 plainly aren't real.

Yeah, the HG3 files in extra are in fact creations I made and posted years ago...  They should be removed from the Final Apollo release (IIRC they have already been removed from the EXTRAS branch along with my MLV and INT Tank extension patchs.) *opens github to check*

 

Yes the only patches left are the J-2T-400K patch and the H-2 engine patch (that also may be depreceiated shortly depending on what Cobalt has or will decide on the subject of BDB native H-2 engine)

 

 

[Zorg]

32 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

 

 

Yes the only patches left are the J-2T-400K patch and the H-2 engine patch (that also may be depreceiated shortly depending on what Cobalt has or will decide on the subject of BDB native H-2 engine)

 

 

What exactly is the H-2 again? I think I was told at some point but forgotten. Its a hard topic to search, since H2 rocket engine leads to stuff related to the Japanese rocket  

Because I am considering RS-X for the atlas revamp. 

[Pappystein]

4 minutes ago, Zorg said:

What exactly is the H-2 again? I think I was told at some point but forgotten. Its a hard topic to search, since H2 rocket engine leads to stuff related to the Japanese rocket  

Because I am considering RS-X for the atlas revamp. 

H-2 is essentially a H-1 Rocket engine with a modified Combustion chamber and new turbopumps and bell that crank the thrust to the 250,000lbf thrust range.    Was discontinued as the XIV turbopump (Going from memory and that is also my favorite mark of the Spitfire so I might be wrong there) was of limited reliability INITIALLY and would require about 2 years to make man rated.    IE canceled by NASA because Moon Race was all that was important.

 

But the RS-X (which seems to be J-2 sized) would be an awesome addition to the stable of BDB engines

Edited January 20, 2022 by Pappystein

[Jcking]

39 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

Yes the only patches left are the J-2T-400K patch and the H-2 engine patch (that also may be depreceiated shortly depending on what Cobalt has or will decide on the subject of BDB native H-2 engine)

There is a native H-2 engine that Cobalt has added in the Apollo Saturn branch. The turbopumps are a bit bigger and there's a starting cartridge ripped from the J-2S model.