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[1.12.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.11.0 "вне" 22/Oct/2022)


CobaltWolf
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3 hours ago, Friznit said:

Fancy doing one for Saturn S-ID as well? 

eeyup, once I have some time to play KSP I'll do one for S-1D. I'm also working (slowly but surely) on a Atlas CELV version as well.

3 hours ago, Friznit said:

do you want to migrate the page to the Unofficial Wiki?

It's already in the unofficial wiki, I just messed up the link on the forum 

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On 4/3/2022 at 2:13 AM, Invaderchaos said:

Unfortunately, this was just an April fools joke :sob:Pioneer Venus was put on hiatus a long time ago. Not sure if anyone has the energy to finish it for now

Yep. I knew that it was a joke, but the picture shows the Pioneer Veus Orbiter complete finished... hope it can be finished soon. 

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On 3/31/2022 at 6:49 AM, BNSF1995 said:

And here's a new guess: the National Launch System from 1991.

When I was checking hypothetical Hubble recovery options - to inform FB people why it won't happen - I used the NLS proposal/info as source materials.

For example, using a Shuttle-C type craft with a saddle truss to emulate the shuttle cargo bay. I used it as a basis for a similar saddle truss in a Starship.

It was a good resource for planning current craft to interface with shuttle-era craft.

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jOFZreu.png

So, I finally got rescale 2.5x for KSP and I've been playing around, testing some of the conceptual designs. The Saturn V-B is the only one I really had any trouble with. You have to really play around with when to jettison the skirt, and even then, the performance is just on the edge of okay/poor imo. I got this roughly 9 to 10ish ton payload into a roughly 100km x 100km orbit at 59.4-degree inclination with just about 118 m/s left to go, or 5 seconds of fuel. I'll leave my settings below so that anyone who wants to use Saturn V-B can use it. @Marcelo Silveira This might help you in your quest to make the Saturn V-B charts. (Though this is for 2.5x rescale and not Stock solar system size, IDK which you make your charts for.)

MechJeb:
PVG Mode
Periapsis: 100KM
Apoapsis: 0KM 
Orbit Inc: 59.4
Booster Pitch Start: 50 M/S
Booster Pitch Rate: 0.5

S-ID Booster Skirt: 
Auto Jettison Mode: On
Auto Jettison G force: 3.3Gs (Might be able to get away with 3.2, 3.1 or even 3.0 Gs.)
IMPORTANT NOTE: Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT have "Limit Acceleration to" on in Mechjeb, otherwise your skirt will jettison a lot later than it's needed to. 

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4 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Though this is for 2.5x rescale and not Stock solar system size, IDK which you make your charts for

Thanks for that info, this will be helpful when calibrating the model. Total Δv used would be even better :D 

The charts are scale agnostic, Δv is Δv regardless of scale. They only calculate how much Δv your rocket is expected to deliver, the  total Δv used is the sum of losses (steering, gravity and drag losses) and the Δv applied to the payload (in stock, you need around 3400m/s to orbit and 5000m/s in 2.5x) . You can define a Δv efficiency  as how much of the rocket's Δv is applied to the payload (the speed you get at the navball) and that depends on launch profile, TWR, and whatnot and BOY oh BOY oh BOY that gets complicated quickly!

Those charts really are a "consider a cow a sphere" kinda of thing :)

SphericalCow2.gif

In fact, one could make a similar chart to get the optimal launch profile parameters for a given payload mass and required Δv. Do I know how to make that?   pfftt, dunno ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Do I wanna try it anyway? heheheh, nah. Too much GNC for me :D 

Edited by Marcelo Silveira
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6 hours ago, GoldForest said:

jOFZreu.png

So, I finally got rescale 2.5x for KSP and I've been playing around, testing some of the conceptual designs. The Saturn V-B is the only one I really had any trouble with. You have to really play around with when to jettison the skirt, and even then, the performance is just on the edge of okay/poor imo. I got this roughly 9 to 10ish ton payload into a roughly 100km x 100km orbit at 59.4-degree inclination with just about 118 m/s left to go, or 5 seconds of fuel. I'll leave my settings below so that anyone who wants to use Saturn V-B can use it. @Marcelo Silveira This might help you in your quest to make the Saturn V-B charts. (Though this is for 2.5x rescale and not Stock solar system size, IDK which you make your charts for.)

MechJeb:
PVG Mode
Periapsis: 100KM
Apoapsis: 0KM 
Orbit Inc: 59.4
Booster Pitch Start: 50 M/S
Booster Pitch Rate: 0.5

S-ID Booster Skirt: 
Auto Jettison Mode: On
Auto Jettison G force: 3.3Gs (Might be able to get away with 3.2, 3.1 or even 3.0 Gs.)
IMPORTANT NOTE: Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT have "Limit Acceleration to" on in Mechjeb, otherwise your skirt will jettison a lot later than it's needed to. 

I wonder how much payload mass increases when you use the common bulkhead OR stretch the tank AND/OR use F-1As

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11 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

which studied Saturn studies would have 100% used F1A and J-2S?

Pretty much anything after the initial production run of 15 (?) Saturn Vs, at least that was my understanding

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55 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

I wonder how much payload mass increases when you use the common bulkhead OR stretch the tank AND/OR use F-1As

I completely forgot about the stretching, and I thought about using F-1V, but it looks kind of ridiculous, but maybe I should test those next time. 

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I really need to talk to Jeb about how to behave when he is not chosen for a mission. We have to scrub the launch to clean the CM up.

20220406113924_1_by_pudgemountain_df345b9-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9NzIwIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNWNlZDA4NmItYTUwYy00YjFkLWJmZmItYmRhOWYxOTgyNzVmXC9kZjM0NWI5LTZjNWU1ODk1LTZmMzMtNGQzZC1iMDcyLTZiYzcwMjVhNThlNi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTI4MCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.5AbY1G3c42pGEu30iyPszPPGq4CU8fu7I5cmfq_Bz1s

Joke Aside I am liking the color options for the Apollo Pod and CSM here you guys are doing a great job.

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6 hours ago, Starhelperdude said:

which studied Saturn studies would have 100% used F1A and J-2S?

F-1A and J-2S Saturns were sometimes denoted with a U suffix e.g. MLV-SAT-V-25(S)U: 4 156 inch strapons, 40 foot stretch on S-IC with 5 F-1As, standard length S-II with 5 J-2Ss (Note that the F-1s are actually referred to as F-1s uprated to 1.8 million lbs thrust, but to my knowledge this is just the F-1A).

Edited by Jcking
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7 hours ago, Starhelperdude said:

which studied Saturn studies would have 100% used F1A and J-2S?

Most used them but not all.  EG the 6x F-1 engined monsters all used stock F-1s and not F-1As.

 

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2 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

A sad day indeed.

It is.... there should ever be the money to repair those monuments of humanity´s first steps in space-travel... and by they way: If you like to have tourists in an area that bring a lot of money with them: you damn need such monuments to show off. What a shame to see such a remarkable, successfull and unconventional designed vehicle destroyed like a old standard highway-bridge.

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1 hour ago, JoeSheridan said:

If you like to have tourists in an area that bring a lot of money with them: you damn need such monuments to show off.

The Huntsville area already has not one, but TWO Saturn I's on display, as well as a Saturn IB a few miles away:

One Saturn I, as well as a bunch of other rockets, at the US Space and Rocket Center (a.k.a. Space Camp):

200729120845-us-space-rocket-center-rest

One Saturn at Marshall Space Flight Center itself:

MSFC_rocket_park.jpg

And even one Saturn IB at a rest stop several miles north of the city:

saturn_1b_rocket.jpg

Also note that the two Saturn I's as well as the one on base that was recently destroyed were test articles. The one at the US Space & Rocket Center was a dynamic test article, meaning it was designed to mimic the expected vibrational characteristics of the full stage, and the two others (the one at Marshall, and the one recently destroyed) were static test articles, meaning they only mimic the expected structural characteristics of the stage, and are not full versions of the stage. In the case of the Saturn I static test articles, they're little more than just the tanks bolted together, with essentially none of the plumbing, or other things that would exist in the actual vehicle. Most static test articles are also destroyed during the normal course of testing, as a chance to see how far engineers can push the structure.

The one on display at the rest stop north of Huntsville is the only flight article of the 4 discussed here, though only the first stage is real. The S-IVB and the payload are mockups.

Edit: Apparently, Static Test Article meant something different back then than it does today. Turns out that the Static Test Article was indeed used to perform a fair number of static fires, meaning that it was in fact a more complicated article than I originally thought. My bad :/.

Edited by Razgriz1
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2 hours ago, Razgriz1 said:

The Huntsville area already has not one, but TWO Saturn I's on display, as well as a Saturn IB a few miles away:

One Saturn I, as well as a bunch of other rockets, at the US Space and Rocket Center (a.k.a. Space Camp):

200729120845-us-space-rocket-center-rest

One Saturn at Marshall Space Flight Center itself:

MSFC_rocket_park.jpg

And even one Saturn IB at a rest stop several miles north of the city:

saturn_1b_rocket.jpg

Also note that the two Saturn I's as well as the one on base that was recently destroyed were test articles. The one at the US Space & Rocket Center was a dynamic test article, meaning it was designed to mimic the expected vibrational characteristics of the full stage, and the two others (the one at Marshall, and the one recently destroyed) were static test articles, meaning they only mimic the expected structural characteristics of the stage, and are not full versions of the stage. In the case of the Saturn I static test articles, they're little more than just the tanks bolted together, with essentially none of the plumbing, or other things that would exist in the actual vehicle. Most static test articles are also destroyed during the normal course of testing, as a chance to see how far engineers can push the structure.

The one on display at the rest stop north of Huntsville is the only flight article of the 4 discussed here, though only the first stage is real. The S-IVB and the payload are mockups.

Edit: Apparently, Static Test Article meant something different back then than it does today. Turns out that the Static Test Article was indeed used to perform a fair number of static fires, meaning that it was in fact a more complicated article than I originally thought. My bad :/.

I used to live in Huntsville, always made sure to keep my membership pass for the USSRC current. Sometimes I'd just go there and stare at all my favorite artifacts; the Saturn I, Apollo 16's CM, the recovered fragment from Skylab's oxygen tank...

God I miss it so much...

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17 hours ago, Marcelo Silveira said:

Thanks for that info, this will be helpful when calibrating the model. Total Δv used would be even better :D 

So the total DV on the rocket is (According to mechjeb):
Atmo DV: 3,678 m/s
Vacuum DV: 4,252 m/s

I had a 118 m/s left so the DV used was: 3,560 m/s atmo or 4,134 m/s vacuum.

Also, here's the vehicle parts so you can accurately recreate the vehicle for yourself:

Medium Holding Tank (Restock+ Variant) set to 800.0 ore
TD-18 Decoupler
BD-AFB-625 6.25m Fairing Base (Set to 0 segments, Auto deploy at 65KM, MLV Short variant)
Saturn IV-B Instrument Unit (Set to 6.25 size)
4x PB-NUK Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (Embedded in the Saturn IU)
Saturn S-IC-70K Liquid Fuel Tank (Length: S-IC)
S-ID Sustainer Mount
Saturn S-ID Booster Skirt (Set to auto jettison: 3.3Gs)
5x F-1 engines (Set to original F-1 specs)

Total mass of the vehicle with payload: 568.582 t
Total mass of the vehicle without payload: 559.382 t
Payload mass: 9.2 t

Edited by GoldForest
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9 hours ago, Razgriz1 said:

The Huntsville area already has not one, but TWO Saturn I's on display, as well as a Saturn IB a few miles away:

One Saturn I, as well as a bunch of other rockets, at the US Space and Rocket Center (a.k.a. Space Camp):

200729120845-us-space-rocket-center-rest

One Saturn at Marshall Space Flight Center itself:

MSFC_rocket_park.jpg

And even one Saturn IB at a rest stop several miles north of the city:

saturn_1b_rocket.jpg

Also note that the two Saturn I's as well as the one on base that was recently destroyed were test articles. The one at the US Space & Rocket Center was a dynamic test article, meaning it was designed to mimic the expected vibrational characteristics of the full stage, and the two others (the one at Marshall, and the one recently destroyed) were static test articles, meaning they only mimic the expected structural characteristics of the stage, and are not full versions of the stage. In the case of the Saturn I static test articles, they're little more than just the tanks bolted together, with essentially none of the plumbing, or other things that would exist in the actual vehicle. Most static test articles are also destroyed during the normal course of testing, as a chance to see how far engineers can push the structure.

The one on display at the rest stop north of Huntsville is the only flight article of the 4 discussed here, though only the first stage is real. The S-IVB and the payload are mockups.

Edit: Apparently, Static Test Article meant something different back then than it does today. Turns out that the Static Test Article was indeed used to perform a fair number of static fires, meaning that it was in fact a more complicated article than I originally thought. My bad :/.

Are those pictures new? Last time I visited they were still refurbishing the Mercury-Redstone.

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1 hour ago, ballisticfox0 said:

Are those pictures new? Last time I visited they were still refurbishing the Mercury-Redstone.

Yeah, I just pulled them from Google. I haven't been to the USSRC in a little while, so all of my own pictures are a bit old.

 

8 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

I used to live in Huntsville, always made sure to keep my membership pass for the USSRC current. Sometimes I'd just go there and stare at all my favorite artifacts; the Saturn I, Apollo 16's CM, the recovered fragment from Skylab's oxygen tank...

God I miss it so much...

Yeah its a great place. I hope they start doing the Biergarten again this year.

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