[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[CobaltWolf]

36 minutes ago, bigyihsuan said:

•  Though, the Delta upper stages (Able, Able-Star, Delta-P/K/DCSS) have not enough TWR for my liking.
• Delta IV/Heavy: The regular version I never really used; as said above the Delta upper stages have way too low TWR for my liking.

For that exact reason (KSP players being bad or impatient at low TWR upper stages ) there's a cfg that should double the thrust of upper stage engines.

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/tree/1.11-development/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/UpperStageThrustBuff

[bigyihsuan]

22 minutes ago, Zorg said:

Atlas works quite well with PVG guidance in my experience. In fact I believe the original implementation of PVG in mechjeb was based on Atlas Centaur algorithms.

mmm, but I never really liked how I had to fiddle with draining the fuel with just the sustainer to find where 1.0 TWR is when the boosters are on, and making sure the skirt jettisons at that time. Granted, the auto-sep feature on the skirt really helps (before that I used Smart Parts on a timer to stage). However, MechJeb's dV readouts and such don't account for this kind of change at all, which makes it inconvenient at best and "blindly shooting in the dark" at worst when building missions launched on Atlases. 

5 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

For that exact reason (KSP players being bad or impatient at low TWR upper stages ) there's a cfg that should double the thrust of upper stage engines.

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/tree/1.11-development/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/UpperStageThrustBuff

Thing is, I have no problems with Centaur, Agena, Transtage, S-IV, etc, only just the Delta upper stages. I have no idea why.

Edited October 20, 2022 by bigyihsuan

[Pappystein]

37 minutes ago, bigyihsuan said:

What are people's thoughts on each launch vehicle in your saves?

List going by order on Friznit's wiki:

• Scout: Never used, the tech trees I play with don't have everything in Scout unlocked early enough.
• Vanguard: Only useful for the first few probes.
• Redstone: Meh, only ever used it for launching the first Kerballed rockets.
• Jupiter: It just melds into Thor/Delta when I get to this point.
• MX/Minotaur/Athena: Never used. SRBs are not flexible enough.
• Thor/Long Thor/Delta: A real workhorse in the early-game before unlocking Titan parts. Though, the Delta upper stages (Able, Able-Star, Delta-P/K/DCSS) have not enough TWR for my liking. I only use Agenas for upper stages, they're that good.
• Atlas/Large Atlas: Good, but the half stage is too fiddly for MechJeb's ascent guidance. Only usable if you're flying manually or if you can't get Titan parts yet.
• Titan: The real workhorse. Have a larger payload? Slap larger/more SRBs and call it a day! And a large variety of upper stages to choose from as well. Staging is simpler than Atlas as well, so MJ doesn't complain as much. Titan 1 is very quickly superseded by 2-4, though, since I usually get the UA12xx SRBs with the rest of the Titan.
• Atlas V: When you get the Atlas V you also have the ETS Saturn parts, so not really used.
• Delta IV/Heavy: The regular version I never really used; as said above the Delta upper stages have way too low TWR for my liking. For the Heavy, the fact that the center stage starts at 60% and then goes to 100% after booster sep makes it hard to work with using MJ.
• Titan LDC: Good if you need to send Saturn-sized payloads but you don't have Saturns yet. I used this frequently with Big Gemini and that Titan-Centaur-Agena-Gemini Iota mission I did: 
• Saturn I/B: Good for the first Apollo missions, but the dV budget is too slim for my liking.
• Saturn IC: An amazing workhorse of a rocket, easily extendable. Slap SRBs, slap LRBs, extend the core, add a third upper stage, so much you can do with this thing. Also very low part count as well.
• Saturn V/MLV:  A good base for payloads that need super-heavy-lift capabilities. Also very extendable, see my Apollo-Saturn-based trip to 2.5x Snarkiverse Dres, where I took a maxed-out Saturn V, added a methalox-powered S-II stage and 4 AJ-260X SRBs:
• Saturn II: Not used.

In *MOSTLY*-order by your list

SCOUT:  ALMOST Never use an All up scout.  I do use modified Scouts to fling Agena based com-sats in to LKO/LEO  

Vanguard:  Wut?  Wut iz dat?    By the time I have Vanguard unlocked I already have much better platforms to launch on (Redstone)

Redstone:   Actually an early workhorse for me via tank swaps...   IE it rarely flys in "historical configuration"   I have yet to figure out a Hydyne fuel load for it however that matches RW performance

***MISSING*** Phat Redstone (with the 4x Redstone engines)   Use it for those launches that I need more than a Thor but don't have the SRMs unlocked yet

Jupiter...  Something something something to get more stupider

MX/Minotaur   My late Career Agena Flinger...     Athena...   Burns in a dumpster fire.  Also CASTOR120 is not a thing in my career    SR-118 and SR-119s for me

Thor:   Utilize it for all my small launches until 8ft Delta Straight 8s are ready to fly  THEN

Straight 8 Delta I/II.    My workhorse for late small sat launch +  with HOSS work on my space-stations for small parts.

Delta III.   Just a better Straight 8 Delta II

Atlas:   Depends on goals but sometimes Atlas is well used, and other times I never use it.   If I am doing a Full recovery "no littering" career then Atlas is NOT USED AT ALL   Can't attach Chutes needed to bring it back.

Titan, Yeah I too use Titan for most of my mid-late launches.    Something about utilizing tons of Aerozine 50 and NTO

Atlas V:   Neat model, love the coppery color (I was on the dev stream when it was "perfected" years ago)  But Not my rocket.   I rarely RARELY use the RD-180

Titan LDC:  another workhorse model.  Even more so in combination with @EStreetRockets Rocket motor menagerie STBE (why did it loose Methalox fuel however!)    I have several posts in RMM about that engine hull combo.   Upper stage is always 2x LR87-LH2-VAC powered!

Titan V (err sorry Delta IV.)  Another neat model That I rarely use.   Would rather use LDC for the history and flexibility or Saturn II-18 for the Heavy payloads

Saturn I.   As Historical I don't really use.  We do not have a correct S-V stage yet (AKA I haven't put the time into calculating out how a non balloon Centaur would mass, how much fuel it would carry etc yet)   So I really can't answer this...

Saturn I NON Historical.   With E-1 engines it is a great lifter.  with 4x RL10B-3 on the S-IV Stage it is actually pretty good  Combine the 2 and THIS is the Saturn you were supposed to have... (well with a 220" diameter S-IV which is actually pretty hard to do without new models!)

Saturn IB Historical (see Saturn I Historical)

Saturn IB NON Historical.... really it is either easy to do 4x E-1s for S-IB stage *OR*  HARD to do 4x H-1 1x F-1 S-IB stage.   With either the rocket is actually pretty amazing for LEO/LKO

ETS Saturn IB sticks:   The so-called S-IE and S-IF stages)     While somewhat based on real concepts they fall short as being a product of an error in calculation during ETS discussions/design/decisions (as relayed by E of Pi on stream a couple years ago.)  The real thing if built would be a crapton shorter... so GREAT lifting rocket but UGLY because it is shorter than snot on a frozen day

Saturn V Historical is a great rocket... but mostly Tri-prupose without deviling into MLV redesigns.   Go to the moon, Go on a flyby of Venus and go on a flyby of Eros

Saturn V MLV  Most flexible rocket *AFTER* Titan in BDB!

Saturn II INT-18 and INT-19,   Made custom parts (via simple MM patch) for the INT-19 to work...   So I use it... somewhat... but INT-18 with the UTC UA-120x SRMs is really where it is at.   You can utilize the Saturn INT-18 for all of your Kerbin/Earth SOI missions it is THAT flexible of a rocket.    from 6000kg to 250,000kg of mass in orbit be it around the moon or just LKO/LEO Saturn II can do it.  Not even Titan can do it.. .and Titan LDC (as historically designed) can't quite match the performance of the combination of a MS-II-396 + S-IVB with 2,4,5 UA-120x SRMs

5 minutes ago, bigyihsuan said:

mmm, but I never really liked how I had to fiddle with draining the fuel with just the sustainer to find where 1.0 TWR is when the boosters are on, and making sure the skirt jettisons at that time. Granted, the auto-sep feature on the skirt really helps (before that I used Smart Parts on a timer to stage). However, MechJeb's dV readouts and such don't account for this kind of change at all, which makes it inconvenient at best and "blindly shooting in the dark" at worst when building missions launched on Atlases.

For me the trick is to just build the rocket normally... remove the skirt and 2 engines then Mechjeb dV calculations are OK for the issue.  I have not had a single fail to orbit that was caused by my error doing it this way... skirt jettisons and rocket has good TWR...

I have had several fail to orbit due to me trying to launch them too close to LKO however (they don't raise the periapsis enough before re-entry

[DeadJohn]

1 hour ago, bigyihsuan said:

What are people's thoughts on each launch vehicle in your saves?

I'll keep my list shorter than yours. For context I usually play in career mode so I'm cost-conscious.

• Kitbashed Scout, Vanguard, and misc. parts to farm science early in the tech tree just to get things started.
• Juno II (Chryslus) is a fairly versatile rocket for light payloads, including contract satellite launches even after better but more expensive rockets are unlocked.
• Thor/Delta/Long Thor are good for kitbashing.
• Delta II gets a lot of use. The large fairing can carry a wide range of payloads and delivery stages. The SRB arrangement can be adjusted for different payload masses.
• Delta III is one of my less favorite builds because of marginal TWR for the 2nd stage. I rarely use D-III.
• Titan and variants! My favorite BDB rocket. Very versatile. Expand to 4x SRBs plus a flared wide fairing and I rarely need bigger rockets.
• Atlas and Saturn get less used because Titan is so cost-effective.

Agena is my favorite upper stage and satellite bus. The engine is continually upgraded in the Science Skyhawk System tech tree. Agena strap-on tanks provide extra DV when needed. The fuel doesn't boil-off so it works well for interplanetary probes.

Edited October 20, 2022 by DeadJohn

[CobaltWolf]

27 minutes ago, bigyihsuan said:

mmm, but I never really liked how I had to fiddle with draining the fuel with just the sustainer to find where 1.0 TWR is when the boosters are on, and making sure the skirt jettisons at that time. Granted, the auto-sep feature on the skirt really helps (before that I used Smart Parts on a timer to stage). However, MechJeb's dV readouts and such don't account for this kind of change at all, which makes it inconvenient at best and "blindly shooting in the dark" at worst when building missions launched on Atlases.

This might help?

https://github.com/friznit/Unofficial-BDB-Wiki/wiki/Atlas-Payload-Performance

[Blufor878]

1 hour ago, bigyihsuan said:

What are people's thoughts on each launch vehicle in your saves?

List going by order on Friznit's wiki:

• Scout: Never used, the tech trees I play with don't have everything in Scout unlocked early enough.
• Vanguard: Only useful for the first few probes.
• Redstone: Meh, only ever used it for launching the first Kerballed rockets.
• Jupiter: It just melds into Thor/Delta when I get to this point.
• MX/Minotaur/Athena: Never used. SRBs are not flexible enough.
• Thor/Long Thor/Delta: A real workhorse in the early-game before unlocking Titan parts. Though, the Delta upper stages (Able, Able-Star, Delta-P/K/DCSS) have not enough TWR for my liking. I only use Agenas for upper stages, they're that good.
• Atlas/Large Atlas: Good, but the half stage is too fiddly for MechJeb's ascent guidance. Only usable if you're flying manually or if you can't get Titan parts yet.
• Titan: The real workhorse. Have a larger payload? Slap larger/more SRBs and call it a day! And a large variety of upper stages to choose from as well. Staging is simpler than Atlas as well, so MJ doesn't complain as much. Titan 1 is very quickly superseded by 2-4, though, since I usually get the UA12xx SRBs with the rest of the Titan.
• Atlas V: When you get the Atlas V you also have the ETS Saturn parts, so not really used.
• Delta IV/Heavy: The regular version I never really used; as said above the Delta upper stages have way too low TWR for my liking. For the Heavy, the fact that the center stage starts at 60% and then goes to 100% after booster sep makes it hard to work with using MJ.
• Titan LDC: Good if you need to send Saturn-sized payloads but you don't have Saturns yet. I used this frequently with Big Gemini and that Titan-Centaur-Agena-Gemini Iota mission I did: 
• Saturn I/B: Good for the first Apollo missions, but the dV budget is too slim for my liking.
• Saturn IC: An amazing workhorse of a rocket, easily extendable. Slap SRBs, slap LRBs, extend the core, add a third upper stage, so much you can do with this thing. Also very low part count as well.
• Saturn V/MLV:  A good base for payloads that need super-heavy-lift capabilities. Also very extendable, see my Apollo-Saturn-based trip to 2.5x Snarkiverse Dres, where I took a maxed-out Saturn V, added a methalox-powered S-II stage and 4 AJ-260X SRBs:
• Saturn II: Not used.

I’m a sandbox guy, so I don’t know if my input would make sense here. But I will say that I am very much an Atlas/Titan/Saturn fanboy.

Atlas: Stage and a half is oddly satisfying. And the RD180 scares me (in a good way).

Titan: BwoooooOOOP!

Saturn: For all my THIC-I mean heavy lifting needs. Also the F1 is music to my ears (from  a safe distance of course).

The other rockets are a bit small for my design needs. I just realized I haven’t used Delta that much, which is strange because it would probably be right up my alley.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Blufor878

[chaos113]

screenshot tax

the winged Gemini vehicles are named Columbia and challenger  

[Pudgemountain]

2 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

What are people's thoughts on each launch vehicle in your saves?

Any Early Rocket I mainly used early to save money and I don't have the Tech Tree.

Redstone: Its great for sounding rockets and sending Kerbals into Space.

Atlas: Mainly use it to get the first Kerbal into space. Not as good as Vostok.

Delta: Its fun to use but not my cup of tea.

Titan: One of my main go to rockets, I use it for alot of early missions where I don't have or can't afford Saturn. I also use it to launch smaller probes or Manned missions to stations or the bigger ship that can't land on Kerbin.

Saturn 1 series: For whatever reason they do not like me, I either run out of fuel, do a death roll or the upper stage isn't powerful though it could be my poor piloting.

Saturn V: Pretty much my main rocket for sending probes far away, do Lunar Missions or assemble larger rockets like the Bradbury into LKO so I don't have to try and launch the whole thing. And also so Bradbury would not nuke all the Kerbals on the ground or destroy the Ozone.

Saturn Launch System: My take on the NLS/SLS which is mainly a extended Saturn V with F1A or B engines, Shuttle SRBs and I wanna say RS-34s instead of J-2s, I already forgot those engines. Mainly for large payloads or possibly interstellar probes.

Saturn C8/Nov.......THIS USER HAS BEEN BANNED DUE TO UTTERING THE FORBIDDEN WORD.

[bigyihsuan]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

This might help?

https://github.com/friznit/Unofficial-BDB-Wiki/wiki/Atlas-Payload-Performance

I've used the page, but I'm using Real Fuels, so I'm not sure how much the changed performance will differ between the graphs on that page and the actual capabilities in-game.

[Friznit]

2 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

What are people's thoughts on each launch vehicle in your saves?

Good question!  A lot depends on my career setup.  Typically I run with severe cost limitations (50% fund/science rewards and/or Bureaucracy mod and part purchasing on), which forces a level of strategizing.    Solids (Scout/Minotaur/Athena) almost never get launched in historic configurations though they do have their uses being super cheap.  Vanguard/Redstone/Juno a few times in early career to get things going but quickly surpassed by Thor/Delta which is definitely the early game workhorse family.  It's pretty much then a choice between using either Atlas or Titan families but as you say Titan is hugely versatile so almost always wins that race, unless I have a roleplay-driven falling out with Glenn Martin.  Saturn parts are vastly more expensive but Saturn II and MLV derivatives get a lot of use in late game.

I've always wondered if it would be possible to somehow restrict part unlocks by reputation with the manufacturer as well as science & funds.  You could conceivably pick "Strategy" that contracts you to a specific manufacturer and locks out the others, and parts get cheaper the more rep you build.

[Rutabaga22]

Were there an actual plans for a silver LEM like the variant in BDB, or is that just for looks?

[Rutabaga22]

I put a CSM block III on a Saturn 1C

[Marcelo Silveira]

7 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

I've used the page, but I'm using Real Fuels, so I'm not sure how much the changed performance will differ between the graphs on that page and the actual capabilities in-game.

If the Isp and mass fraction ratios in both cases are close, then ther won't be a major difference between the calculated and actual capabilities.

[GoldForest]

Full album: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Having fun playing around with 7m Delta IV core (Which I've been calling Delta V), testing its limits. Previously I used Delta 7m with DCSS 4m and a single RS-68. This version has DCSS 5m and 2 RS-68s, and no SRBs. It can lift ~11 tons to ~149 km x ~151 km 90-degree orbit. Though, Mechjeb didn't like the circularization burn, so I had to take manual control. The orbit ended with 266 m/s Dv still in the tanks.

And with the Delta V, returns the 4-digit naming scheme, yay! 

1st digit - Number of engines on cores. Can be RS-68s or RS-800s
2nd digit - Number of SRBs. Gem-60XLs
3rd digit - Denotes which DCSS is used. There are 3. 4m, 5m and a new 7m (Still WIP) This number also denotes the size of the fairing. Fairing size matches DCSS size.
4th digit - Number of engines on the DCSS. Mostly RL-10s, but possibility of RL-20s or even RL-60s. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by GoldForest

[GoldForest]

Full album: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Delta V 6074-H3 launching a heavy 41-ton payload into 111.291 km x 111.222 km 90-degree orbit. Had to launch it manually because Mechjeb apparently hates the Delta V series I'm kitbashing, but what else is new. 

Oh, forgot to mention, on top of the 4-digit system, there's a suffix system as well. H denotes "Heavy" and the number after denotes the number of cores. So H3 means 3 7m CCBs.

@CobaltWolf or @Zorg would it be possible to get a modern DCSS styled S-IVB?

Also, KSP 2 got an early release date, so might want go get to work on BDB 2.0. You got until February 24th. Chop chop. /joking about getting to work obvoius 

Edited October 21, 2022 by GoldForest

[Alpha512]

On 10/20/2022 at 1:46 PM, Jcking said:

Expansion Deflection, not bell. It's a type of altitude compensating nozzle. Rocketdyne worked on a couple, and Aerojet built and test fired one.

OKAY now I really want it in the mod
@CobaltWolf, please?

[sojourner-fishsticcc]

hey this is kind of a random question but i was going through some part files and found the tags for the Ranger Block-II GRS (bluedog_Ranger_Block2_GammaRaySpectrometer) which are;

tags = gamma grs folding science magnetic hate ranger burke wayfarer mariner

why does it have the tag "hate"??? not judging but like what did this part do to you? what's the story here? i'm really curious about this i need to know

[CobaltWolf]

1 minute ago, sojourner-fishsticcc said:

hey this is kind of a random question but i was going through some part files and found the tags for the Ranger Block-II GRS (bluedog_Ranger_Block2_GammaRaySpectrometer) which are;

tags = gamma grs folding science magnetic hate ranger burke wayfarer mariner

why does it have the tag "hate"??? not judging but like what did this part do to you? what's the story here? i'm really curious about this i need to know

Oh I was frustrated at having to go through and write in hundreds of parts worth of tags when they added that feature. There was cusses for a while too but I think someone removed them all at one point.

[Pudgemountain]

Unfortunately due to hardware limitations I uninstalled GU so I am just sticking with Stock system with OPM and decided to add ExtraSolar. Bright side is I can use the new Parallax and AVP.

Pictures taken of Debussy 2 the first probe to orbit the Mun and return. In your face Koviet Union, The Kerbal States beat you to orbiting the Mun.

What do you call this a Delta/Titan Hybrid?

Due to an issue with opening the fairing one of Debussy 2's solar panels was destroyed but luckily 1 was enough.

Well unfortunately the Juno control system was supposed to decouple and use the heatshield but the second stage wanted to say. Fortunately we had enough fuel to slow it down for a safe landing.

[Entr8899]

38 minutes ago, Pudgemountain said:

Unfortunately due to hardware limitations I uninstalled GU so I am just sticking with Stock system with OPM and decided to add ExtraSolar. Bright side is I can use the new Parallax and AVP.

Pictures taken of Debussy 2 the first probe to orbit the Mun and return. In your face Koviet Union, The Kerbal States beat you to orbiting the Mun.

What do you call this a Delta/Titan Hybrid?

Due to an issue with opening the fairing one of Debussy 2's solar panels was destroyed but luckily 1 was enough.

Well unfortunately the Juno control system was supposed to decouple and use the heatshield but the second stage wanted to say. Fortunately we had enough fuel to slow it down for a safe landing.

Never finish on Bach...

[Blufor878]

Tried to make an Ares-like rocket using Apollo and Titan components. And yes, Tweakscale may or may not have been involved. I call it Tares (Titan Ares).
https://kerbalx.com/ManateeAerospace/Tares




Oh, and a cargo variant of the Herakles Orion.
https://kerbalx.com/ManateeAerospace/Herakles-1205-Lifter

[strangespinosaurus]

why are my

boosters not working and how do i fix thishttps://www.xbox.com/play/media/H9H2DCHN

Quote

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by strangespinosaurus

[GoldForest]

2 hours ago, strangespinosaurus said:

why are my

boosters not working and how do i fix thishttps://www.xbox.com/play/media/H9H2DCHN

Well for 1:
Those errors are mostly for Artemis Construction Kit and not BDB.

2: Looks like you're missing Photon Corp

3: You can delete the ICPS folder inside the Benjee_Orion folder if you have BDB already installed to get rid of the dupe error

4: Make sure you have the latest download for all your mods involved. BDB, Artemis Construction Kit, Photoncorp, etc.

[DaveyJ576]

There has been some discussion here about the dev team working on Viking. I already have a fully working version! See below. 

Spoiler

Viking was a sounding rocket developed and built by the Glenn L. Martin Company for the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in the late 1940's. It was intended to supersede the V-2/Bumper.  All 12 of the flights took place between 1949 and 1955 from the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. There were two major versions, this one represents the first series (Vikings 1-7).

I kitbashed this from existing Stock/Restock and BDB parts. Tweakscale was heavily used. I added a variety of science parts. With Neptune Camera you can recreate the first photos from space.

Thor Delta 85 tank, Thor Delta 60 tank, Agena 240BD tank, Thor Able Guidance Unit, Mk 5A Nosecone, Delta K interstage, Juno IVB 45K engine, and the Delta Delux Winglet. 

Spoiler

This represents the 2nd series (Vikings 8-12). Parts list: Vanguard 490 tank, Agena TRU, Mk 5A nosecone, T-12 Structural Tube, LR-105 Atlas Sustainer Engine, & Algol Control Surfaces. Lots of Tweakscaling here too. IRL these rockets wound up being the basis for Vanguard, but I had trouble adapting the existing BDB Vanguard parts so I improvised. Tweakscaling the engines reduces the thrust to semi-realistic levels. Conformal Decals adds a lot of visual bling. I found the Martin, NRL, and NACA logos on the net and incorporated them.

For Viking 12 I modified the nose to incorporate a recovery section with a parachute. Additional parts: .9375m Decoupler, Mk12-R Radial Mount Drogue Chute, Jupiter Guidance Unit, and the ever-present Mk 5A nosecone. For those of you who play KSRSS (I haven't installed the new Reborn yet) I have a patch for adding White Sands, Wallops, and Johnston Island launch sites. 

Surprise! 

[CAPFlyer]

Nice kitbash.  The only thing that sucks is that in career mode - it doesn't work.

I've been kitbashing Viking using Procedural Parts fairly successfully (although there's no workable shrouded engine that goes with it in my part list) but having something like this or a bespoke Viking would be nice.  In fact, having more of the sounding rockets would be nice for many reasons.  US Rockets has decent Aerobees but the models are getting a tad tired and there's some limited capability to interchange (i.e. no chute pack for some versions), but the bigger rockets like Viking are missing.  Another guy was working on some sounding rockets, but he's gone quiet for over a year now, so if we get more sounding rockets, I'm all for it.