[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[Transformatron]

On 10/27/2022 at 3:17 PM, G'th said:

The main thing about the MEM I think is that a lot of artistic liberty would have to be taken to make it actually look good next to the rest of BDB or any other comparable mod, but also do it while not being an unfeasible nonsense design (in terms of it wouldn't have ever worked on an engineering level IRL), but while also, I think, allowing for the lego-ness of it. 

And that would take some informed artistry to really accomplish, as the MEM as originally designed technically wouldn't have worked, but thats only because NA never got to the point where they could redesign it after a presumed Viking program fed them more data on Mars.  Interestingly though, it wouldn't have taken much to do it. A slight diameter upgrade to 10m and some slimming down could have gotten the MEM into a suitable weight range, and at that point all you strictly need is the right engines.  Designing it for aerobraking in addition to retropropulsion would also have helped to allow for more payload weight.  Plus, there's also the other MEM derivatives to consider as well, as it wouldn't have just been the lander if they ever got built. Cargo and Habitat-only variants would likely have been designed as well around the same aeroshell/heatshield chassis. 

But there's also other ways to do it, though much less feasible. If you wanted to do something like Viking architecture, you'd actually have to scale up to a 15m diameter and would need a pretty beefy ballute/parachute (and I mean beefy). And there's also the option of doing nested heat shields, where one is used for aerobraking before being jettisoned, and then the interior one is much lighter; that could work and would be nice in KSP as you'd avoid all the struggles of not having that system destroy itself. 

The other big issue with the MEM too is the scaling of it, as even at realscale its a pretty cramped vehicle as designed, so some attention would have to be paid to how scaling it down interacts with kerbals. 

There's a mod called NAR MEM that has all of the parts,  Still works in the latest version but obv isn't up to par with current BDB artstyle.  Its a bit buggy as well, not all the nodes are alligned perfectly but for the most part it works.  

 

[Jcking]

On 10/27/2022 at 3:17 PM, G'th said:

The main thing about the MEM I think is that a lot of artistic liberty would have to be taken to make it actually look good next to the rest of BDB or any other comparable mod, but also do it while not being an unfeasible nonsense design (in terms of it wouldn't have ever worked on an engineering level IRL), but while also, I think, allowing for the lego-ness of it. 

And that would take some informed artistry to really accomplish, as the MEM as originally designed technically wouldn't have worked, but thats only because NA never got to the point where they could redesign it after a presumed Viking program fed them more data on Mars.  Interestingly though, it wouldn't have taken much to do it. A slight diameter upgrade to 10m and some slimming down could have gotten the MEM into a suitable weight range, and at that point all you strictly need is the right engines.  Designing it for aerobraking in addition to retropropulsion would also have helped to allow for more payload weight.  Plus, there's also the other MEM derivatives to consider as well, as it wouldn't have just been the lander if they ever got built. Cargo and Habitat-only variants would likely have been designed as well around the same aeroshell/heatshield chassis. 

But there's also other ways to do it, though much less feasible. If you wanted to do something like Viking architecture, you'd actually have to scale up to a 15m diameter and would need a pretty beefy ballute/parachute (and I mean beefy). And there's also the option of doing nested heat shields, where one is used for aerobraking before being jettisoned, and then the interior one is much lighter; that could work and would be nice in KSP as you'd avoid all the struggles of not having that system destroy itself. 

The other big issue with the MEM too is the scaling of it, as even at realscale its a pretty cramped vehicle as designed, so some attention would have to be paid to how scaling it down interacts with kerbals. 

The NAR MEM was an aerobraking/retropropulsion design with ballutes deployed at mach 3.5 and jettisoned at mach 1.5, at which point retropropulsion with a 140,000 lbf FLOX/CH4 aerospike begins bleeding off excess velocity until touchdown.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Jcking
I'm sorry if you got pinged twice for my response, forum issues led to double posting.

[CobaltWolf]

I could see exotic fuels matching the vibe of KSP 2 more

[Rutabaga22]

I took my plane for a flyby of the Big G

[G'th]

9 hours ago, Jcking said:

The NAR MEM was an aerobraking/retropropulsion design with ballutes deployed at mach 3.5 and jettisoned at mach 1.5, at which point retropropulsion with a 140,000 lbf FLOX/CH4 aerospike begins bleeding off excess velocity until touchdown.

Right but the issue with it is is that at the weight it was designed at it doesn't have enough deceleration to safely reach a hover before it hits the ground, even aiming for the lowest elevations on Mars. Everything about it would have to increase in relative size to be able to make it work at the same weight, so it becomes a question of whats viable if you could give NASA more accurate models of Mars to work with than what they had by 1969. 

There's also the issue that it needs to bleed speed from high orbits over Mars as thats where the MTV would be sitting, in addition to the ascent stage being able to make that same high orbit.  So realistically, they'd likely have to do an aero-braking design that then goes for a full retro-propulsive burn to the surface. They'd only need to move up to a 10m diameter that way (which in addition to some structural redesigns would give them enough fuel to do it) and wouldn't need to spend budgets on a may be might work ballute system. 

8 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I could see exotic fuels matching the vibe of KSP 2 more

It doesn't really need exotic fuels. Using flourine as an oxidizer is an awful idea even by Soviet standards, and doesn't give the system enough of a boost to justify having to maintain the fuel over a 2 year voyage. 

[rnyboy]

OK, I got everything on the Saturn V , CSM (with SIM instruments), and MLM with collapsible rover all working well for an Apollo 17 like mission.  The dVs, TWRs, burn times (given this is a Kerbin launch), time to clear tower (10s), etc. are all quite decent with about 875 dV left in SIV for TLI after a 50 dV burn for perigee orbit circularization.  However, I have one odd thing I can't seem to sort out...  I'm using the new stock BDB Saturn V on MLP to start with, and with no changes by me, it won't autostage from the MLP using MechJeb 2 Ascent Guidance.  I have to manually stage here.  Was it planned this way or am I missing something silly again (most likely the case), like the not seeing the "Shielding" button to release the SIM bay panel when I asked for help a couple of days ago?  Thanks again for any input.

[Pappystein]

43 minutes ago, rnyboy said:

OK, I got everything on the Saturn V , CSM (with SIM instruments), and MLM with collapsible rover all working well for an Apollo 17 like mission.  The dVs, TWRs, burn times (given this is a Kerbin launch), time to clear tower (10s), etc. are all quite decent with about 875 dV left in SIV for TLI after a 50 dV burn for perigee orbit circularization.  However, I have one odd thing I can't seem to sort out...  I'm using the new stock BDB Saturn V on MLP to start with, and with no changes by me, it won't autostage from the MLP using MechJeb 2 Ascent Guidance.  I have to manually stage here.  Was it planned this way or am I missing something silly again (most likely the case), like the not seeing the "Shielding" button to release the SIM bay panel when I asked for help a couple of days ago?  Thanks again for any input.

Funny, I had the same problem last night with the dev version of MechJeb I am using and the Delta II (late) Tower.   Start the engines... no auto stage

Probably should post in the MLP forum however... Also several of the most reacent Dev builds for MechJeb seem to be messing with "airplane guidance"  That could be a cause.  You can download old revisions of Mechjeb if you go to the forum post and choose "MechJeb 2 Dev" at the bottom of the OP post (that Is where I got my dev copy LAST YEAR)   But I think this is a MLP change that causes this issue, and not a MechJeb Issue on it's own.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Pappystein

[rnyboy]

1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Funny, I had the same problem last night with the dev version of MechJeb I am using and the Delta II (late) Tower.   Start the engines... no auto stage

Probably should post in the MLP forum however... Also several of the most reacent Dev builds for MechJeb seem to be messing with "airplane guidance"  That could be a cause.  You can download old revisions of Mechjeb if you go to the forum post and choose "MechJeb 2 Dev" at the bottom of the OP post (that Is where I got my dev copy LAST YEAR)   But I think this is a MLP change that causes this issue, and not a MechJeb Issue on it's own.

 

Thanks for the reply.  Could be MLP issue.  I just switched a few days ago to KSP1.12 from 1.11 and this was my first "rebuilding" so I thought it might be an issue with the new stock BDB Saturn V/MLP build.  Next up is to start a rebuild of the reStock SLS.  If lucky ksp 1.12 will at least load my old 1.11 one.  It has the "Invalid or locked Parts" warning and they sometimes load, or if too much missing or changed, it just leaves me stranded for a full build again from the individual parts.

[Pappystein]

13 minutes ago, rnyboy said:

Thanks for the reply.  Could be MLP issue.  I just switched a few days ago to KSP1.12 from 1.11 and this was my first "rebuilding" so I thought it might be an issue with the new stock BDB Saturn V/MLP build.  Next up is to start a rebuild of the reStock SLS.  If lucky ksp 1.12 will at least load my old 1.11 one.  It has the "Invalid or locked Parts" warning and they sometimes load, or if too much missing or changed, it just leaves me stranded for a full build again from the individual parts.

Wait, you are not using ArCK?  

???

 

[AstroKerbal1B]

Hey, Is there a way to use MOARdV's Avionics Systems with the BDB Apollo CEM and LM ?

[OrbitalManeuvers]

In other news, budget constraints.

[Pudgemountain]

When I downloaded PTrevTrevs' Apollo TUFX profile I was waiting for a proper moment to use it when I decided why not during a Gemini Spacewalk. Unfortunately I forgot the default 4 kerbalnaut's suit types tend to reset.

Bonus encountering underwater foilage.

Spoiler

 

[AlphaMensae]

7 hours ago, rnyboy said:

Thanks for the reply.  Could be MLP issue.  I just switched a few days ago to KSP1.12 from 1.11 and this was my first "rebuilding" so I thought it might be an issue with the new stock BDB Saturn V/MLP build.  Next up is to start a rebuild of the reStock SLS.  If lucky ksp 1.12 will at least load my old 1.11 one.  It has the "Invalid or locked Parts" warning and they sometimes load, or if too much missing or changed, it just leaves me stranded for a full build again from the individual parts.

Make sure the MLP launch base is not the root part, or it won't decouple. Beyond that, it's a Mechjeb issue.

[chaos113]

I wish the Gemini big g modules had a modernized option like with the apollo capsule and heatsheild 

[Pappystein]

1 hour ago, chaos113 said:

I wish the Gemini big g modules had a modernized option like with the apollo capsule and heatsheild 

Why?  In many respects the Gemini was WAY ahead of both Apollo and "modern" blankets

 

[KeaKaka]

Showing WRESAT some love:

[chaos113]

2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Why?  In many respects the Gemini was WAY ahead of both Apollo and "modern" blankets

 

Id like a version of Gemini thats like the shuttles design with thermal blankets and thermal tiles

[610yesnolovely]

9 hours ago, AstroKerbal1B said:

Hey, Is there a way to use MOARdV's Avionics Systems with the BDB Apollo CEM and LM ?

Yes. Install Reviva (by myself) and then get MOARdV Avionics System and also MOARdVPlus - the latter covers two variants of the Apollo CM: Retro and Future. Reviva provides support for switching IVA and configuration for the BDB Apollo (instead of FASA) and also adds support for various other IVA packs. For the LEM I'd recommend Max-KSP IVA which is MAS based.

For other BDB check the Reviva README.md (link at bottom of OP below), there's a huge table of supported IVA in Reviva and links on where to get the IVA pack. Reviva currently provides support for RPM/MAS for the BDB Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and LEM with a bunch of different IVA mods (including configs for IVA usually for Stock pods remapped onto BDB, eg. RPM ASET Mk1-3 in the BDB Apollo is quite nice).

Apollo with MOARdVPlus Glass:

Spoiler

LEM (Max-KSP)

Spoiler

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by 610yesnolovely

[GoldForest]

@Rodger Found a bug with the MV planetary scan platform. If you unlock the secondary tracking while it's unfolding, it will stop moving and you can't extend or retract it anymore. Might want to lock secondary tracking to a fully deployed state.

As for the Eve entry, completely stable now. So stable in fact, that I didn't even need to tell the craft to stay pointing retrograde. 

[Rodger]

56 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Might want to lock secondary tracking to a fully deployed state.

If only such a thing were possible without coding a new module lol. It's fixable in-game if you retract the 2nd axis then F5/F9 to reload the scene, then the main unfold animation will continue. I can put a warning in the description at least though.

[rnyboy]

14 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Wait, you are not using ArCK?  

???

 

I happened to find that this morning after I found out the ReStock SLS SRBs immediately decouple after leaving the launchpad.   After that episode I went looking for anything new as far as the SLS goes in KSP and hit Benjee 10's mod.  I don't know how I missed it the first time I looked at the CKAN mod list for v1.12.   This SLS is working fine for me after I switched out the first cryoengine I used for the ICPS.  Right now that SLS hits an 80km LKO using only 20 m/s of dV from the ICPS.   That's leaving about 1300 m/s dV from the ICPS which seems very unreasonably high given it's only meant for a TLI to the Mun.  I'll probably lower the fuel in the ICPS to leave more like 900 m/s dV for a Mun TLI and retweak the rest again.  Next is to build the Block 1B and put a monoprop propelled habitat in the payload bay for docking with the Orion/ESM to make the trip into Duna orbit and then I think out or at least partially out of Duna orbit and back to kerbin.  That should make the kerbals a lot more comfortable on the way to and from Duna.

 

7 hours ago, AlphaMensae said:

Make sure the MLP launch base is not the root part, or it won't decouple. Beyond that, it's a Mechjeb issue.

It's definitely not the root part, the Kane command module is the root.  This has happened once before with a ship from another mod but I can't remember which one it was and I just kept manually staging it.  If it was a Mechjeb issue I would think lots of others would have experienced this same issue since I can't be the only one using the Ascent Guidance to launch the BDB Saturn V.  I think I'll try using only the Saturn V mobile launchpad and see if it stages properly with nothing else happening.  Another think I noticed was that there are two green nodes under the center of the Saturn V.   Does it make a difference as to which of those nodes the launchpad is connected too?  

Edited October 31, 2022 by rnyboy

[biohazard15]

17 hours ago, rnyboy said:

it won't autostage from the MLP using MechJeb 2 Ascent Guidance.  I have to manually stage here.

The most obvious and absolutely the best solution here: don't use MJ autostage, ever. It's designed for stock parts, and doesn't work well with more complex staging designs, like BDB or MLP or... hell, it just doesn't work well, so don't use it and hit spacebar few times.

1 hour ago, rnyboy said:

Right now that SLS hits an 80km LKO using only 20 m/s of dV from the ICPS.   That's leaving about 1300 m/s dV from the ICPS which seems very unreasonably high given it's only meant for a TLI to the Mun.  I'll probably lower the fuel in the ICPS to leave more like 900 m/s dV for a Mun TLI and retweak the rest again.

Sounds like you're playing with stock solar system. Most part mods today, including this one and ACK, are designed for JNSQ-sized system (that is, 2.7x rescale), and thus are wildly overpowered in stock. For best experience, I suggest installing KSRSS Reborn and KSC Switcher (the latter is needed to change KSC locations).

Edited October 31, 2022 by biohazard15

[AlphaMensae]

3 hours ago, rnyboy said:

It's definitely not the root part, the Kane command module is the root.  This has happened once before with a ship from another mod but I can't remember which one it was and I just kept manually staging it.  If it was a Mechjeb issue I would think lots of others would have experienced this same issue since I can't be the only one using the Ascent Guidance to launch the BDB Saturn V.  I think I'll try using only the Saturn V mobile launchpad and see if it stages properly with nothing else happening.  Another think I noticed was that there are two green nodes under the center of the Saturn V.   Does it make a difference as to which of those nodes the launchpad is connected too?  

There only should be one green node in the center of the base. so something is wrong there.

I think the PVG variant of Mechjeb that RO uses has autostaging that works.

[OrbitalManeuvers]

4 hours ago, rnyboy said:

If it was a Mechjeb issue I would think lots of others would have experienced this same issue since I can't be the only one using the Ascent Guidance to launch the BDB Saturn V. 

Check this out:

Spoiler

 

(spoiler: it goes by itself after like 15 seconds)

edit: for comparison, a titan works with the expected timing:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by OrbitalManeuvers

[rnyboy]

2 hours ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

Check this out:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(spoiler: it goes by itself after like 15 seconds)

edit: for comparison, a titan works with the expected timing:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Now that's interesting.  Thanks!  I did let one hang on the pad for a bit over 5s one time thinking maybe it was taking a longer time to build up thrust and nothing happened, so I manually staged it.  15s is a looong time.  Btw, was that 15s game seconds or real seconds?  For me 15 game seconds is often something like 25s in real time.  I'm pretty much always running under a yellow caution.  Next time I'll let one set for at least 15s to see if anything happens.  I could see 15s for clearing the tower.   Apollo 15 took something like 13s to clear the tower, I shoot for 10s or so for that in my Apollo/Saturn V builds.  Too much more than 10s to clear tower and the rocket will often start to tilt and then sometimes it's bye bye to rocket, pad, and kerbals if I don't hit abort soon enough. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by rnyboy