[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[CobaltWolf]

2 hours ago, WuphonsReach said:

Starting to look at the antennas (just DIRECT/RELAY, not INTERNAL) in Bluedog and their stats seem to be all over the place.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jnynvDzCTHEPx8YvxxkizboIcfmEq3Zrc-EdbhLhcJo/edit?usp=sharing

Before I start writing a pull request, were there balance guidelines that you followed when specifying the antennas?

My proposed guidelines:

• No packet intervals above 1.5 seconds, or below 0.3 seconds
• Transmit rates (Mits/sec) between 0.5 and 9.0 
• EC/Mit as low as 1.5 (only for the shortest of ranges), but mostly in the 4.5-9.0 range
• Parts with a transmit power / mass fraction below 100,000 or above 50,000,000 to be looked at

Specific thoughts:

• bluedog_LEM_Ascent_Antenna1 - Has a power value of 5000, boost to 25000
• bluedog_scimitar - probably weighs too much (cut mass to 0.002 from 0.005)
• bluedog_telstar - is a relay, but probably has too little power (go from 125k to 500k)
• bluedog_malhenaSolar - has solar panels, but mass should probably be cut to 1/2 of existing
• Apollo HGAs - probably boost their power from 10M to 25M (maye 50M), help them function as relays
• Ranger Dish - weighs too much at 0.030, could cut to 0.015 or 0.010 (2Gm antenna)
• Mariner 4 Dish - weighs too little at 0.020, should probably be 0.040 or 0.035
• (plus the balancing for packet intervals, transmit rates, EC/Mits

All good stuff, and I appreciate the notes! I don't really do much balancing past getting parts in game in the first place, so I'm pretty dependent on good posts/PRs like this to keep the mod functional and balanced. 

Some things to note (and I'm on mobile so apologies if the formatting is awful):

- Telstar is meant to be for connecting your first LEO constellation. Bit less of a big deal now that we have the stock comm system with all the ground stations. 

- How significant of a change are these mass changes you're proposing? I don't have a good handle on the overall weight of a probe or something so i don't know how much something like a 0.01 mass change affects them. Also be sure to see if the parts have PhysicsSignificance=1 in the cfg, in which case their mass doesn't count anyways!  

-if you are doing this, please don't forget to include the new Venus Flyby antenna that was just added to the Github

- generally these are all ok, the internal antennas you will need to be careful with. They are generally on probes that have built in experiments, and they need to be able to transmit the data in one load of their batteries. 

 

[notJebKerman]

@CobaltWolf With the new Venus flyby spacecraft, are you planning to make a special Skylab workshop with a fuel tank? Also, does anyone know how long does an Eve free return trajectory take in 2.5x system?

[WuphonsReach]

38 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

All good stuff, and I appreciate the notes! I don't really do much balancing past getting parts in game in the first place, so I'm pretty dependent on good posts/PRs like this to keep the mod functional and balanced. 

Some things to note (and I'm on mobile so apologies if the formatting is awful):

- Telstar is meant to be for connecting your first LEO constellation. Bit less of a big deal now that we have the stock comm system with all the ground stations. 

- How significant of a change are these mass changes you're proposing? I don't have a good handle on the overall weight of a probe or something so i don't know how much something like a 0.01 mass change affects them. Also be sure to see if the parts have PhysicsSignificance=1 in the cfg, in which case their mass doesn't count anyways!  

-if you are doing this, please don't forget to include the new Venus Flyby antenna that was just added to the Github

- generally these are all ok, the internal antennas you will need to be careful with. They are generally on probes that have built in experiments, and they need to be able to transmit the data in one load of their batteries. 

 

Mass changes are always risky, but in most cases I'm taking a part that massed 1-5kg and changing it by a few kilograms.  Probe cores are usually measured in 10s or 100s of kilograms.  The lightest probe (including solar panels and some other bits) that I tend to launch is 200-300kg, usually more like 400-1200kg once fuel is loaded.  So a change of 2-3kg (0.002-0.003 tons) should be fine.

(Most of the antennas BDDB have that value set to one, but that means "The mass of the part and the drag experienced by it are added to the parent's part".  So the mass of the part still matters, it just doesn't result in an offset CoM.)

I'll be careful with mass 

Will be sure to look at the new Venus Flyby antenna (I have to fork the project on GitHub anyway, then clone it down before I start balance work).  Also sounds like for parts such as the Mercury Science (bluedog_mercuryScience), that I will need to be careful to not increase the EC/Mit values (which I currently calculate in column M as "⚡/Mit"). 

[Jso]

15 hours ago, WuphonsReach said:

No packet intervals above 1.5 seconds, or below 0.3 seconds

This definitely needs fixing. Early on I was using packet interval to adjust bandwidth, and that's wrong. 0.3 - 1.5 seconds sounds good, just be sure to retain the bandwidth. Some of them are slowed to permit longer ranges at lower power levels, and the ec/mit will be high on those.

Early tech longer range stuff should be heavier than comparable later tech stock stuff. If you change an antennas range/power I'll ask why. I *believe* they are all appropriate for their missions.

You overlooked $ cost which is probably all over the place :-)

[WuphonsReach]

@Jso

Indeed, what got me looking into things was the antennas with intervals measured in multiple seconds.  So you'd click the "send science" button and then nothing would appear to happen.  By keeping the packet tick below 1.5 seconds, the player gets faster feedback that things are working.  On the flip side, going below 0.3-0.5 seconds per packet means too many updates on the screen per second.

Bandwidth has play limits.  Waiting 2 minutes to send 20 science may be realistic, but is generally not fun for the player after the novelty wears off.  (Fortunately, the player can put multiple DIRECT antennas on the vessel and KSP's transmission feature will do some parallel transmissions.)

I need to also add costs to the spreadsheet (both node purchase and part cost), just haven't gotten there yet.

[Drakenex]

22 hours ago, notJebKerman said:

@CobaltWolf With the new Venus flyby spacecraft, are you planning to make a special Skylab workshop with a fuel tank? Also, does anyone know how long does an Eve free return trajectory take in 2.5x system?

look no further! Drakenex's Deluxe Counterfeits have the solution

 

This brand new wet workshop (nope, isn't old Skylab one ) holds same amount of fuel than the SIVB-11300 tank, but after performing your TVI (or any other interplanetary injection) powerful pumps will suck it dry so you can furnish it with your favorite scientific equipment! *

Get it here

 

 

* It's just a SIVB-11300 tank repaint (a very good quality one) using Skylab workshop config sans its mesh switches plus fuel and the ability to dump it. Copy the DDS file on Skylab's folder and the cfg anywhere you want.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Drakenex

[seads23]

Hey @CobaltWolf! I was wondering if you were considering adding the Delta IV and Delta IV Heavy to BDB. I would really like to see them in this mod! Also, are you considering adding the Man-Rated version of the Atlas V? Thank you, and have a good day!

[Pappystein]

35 minutes ago, seads23 said:

Hey @CobaltWolf! I was wondering if you were considering adding the Delta IV and Delta IV Heavy to BDB. I would really like to see them in this mod! Also, are you considering adding the Man-Rated version of the Atlas V? Thank you, and have a good day!

seads23,  Cobalt has stated previously that Delta IV in any form was not on the table at this time (or ever.)  But it is his mod and he can do whatever HE wants with it.  Personally I think you will get a better rocket than Delta V when Titan LDC is released (No pressure Cobalt!)  Same Diameter (3.125m at kerbal scale..)  But available BEFORE the 4 and gee gollie it is designed to lift MOAR to space than Delta IV does!

That being said.  Man rating Atlas-V...  There is no change with the in game parts needed to have it considered Man rated.  The only parts that would need to be changed would be SRBs since they need a "kill switch"   Since there are no Atlas V SRBs in the mod as of yet... Atlas V is already man rated    NOW if you want to maintain that Man rating only use SRBs that can be shut down....  And Bluedog DB has a bunch of them that can (and more that can't)

All this being said, in my opinion,  the best mod for RS-68 engines and big tanks for your Delta IV is probably SSTU (by @Shadowmage )  I will warn you now that SSTU is different than a typical part mod.  It has a different layout, a different art style and some unique things in KSP today.   I personally use BOTH BDB and SSTU in almost all of my builds using the appropriate parts from each mod as best suits my needs at the time. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Pappystein
cleared up a sentance that didn't read right

[CobaltWolf]

13 hours ago, seads23 said:

Hey @CobaltWolf! I was wondering if you were considering adding the Delta IV and Delta IV Heavy to BDB. I would really like to see them in this mod! Also, are you considering adding the Man-Rated version of the Atlas V? Thank you, and have a good day!

13 hours ago, Pappystein said:

seads23,  Cobalt has stated previously that Delta IV in any form was not on the table at this time (or ever.)  But it is his mod and he can do whatever HE wants with it.  Personally I think you will get a better rocket than Delta V when Titan LDC is released (No pressure Cobalt!)  Same Diameter (3.125m at kerbal scale..)  But available BEFORE the 4 and gee gollie it is designed to lift MOAR to space than Delta IV does!

That being said.  Man rating Atlas-V...  There is no change with the in game parts needed to have it considered Man rated.  The only parts that would need to be changed would be SRBs since they need a "kill switch"   Since there are no Atlas V SRBs in the mod as of yet... Atlas V is already man rated    NOW if you want to maintain that Man rating only use SRBs that can be shut down....  And Bluedog DB has a bunch of them that can (and more that can't)

All this being said, in my opinion,  the best mod for RS-68 engines and big tanks for your Delta IV is probably SSTU (by @Shadowmage )  I will warn you now that SSTU is different than a typical part mod.  It has a different layout, a different art style and some unique things in KSP today.   I personally use BOTH BDB and SSTU in almost all of my builds using the appropriate parts from each mod as best suits my needs at the time. 

Indeed, Delta IV isn't really something I'm interested in... I think it's an ugly rocket tbh  Atlas V is really only in the mod because I have a small IRL connection to it -  my father worked on part of a system that used Atlas V for launch, and the Atlas V was originally made before BDB settled into being a historical rocketry pack. As Pappystein said, hopefully at some point we will be getting the LDC Titan which will serve that role, and also fill out the current gap between the Titans and Saturns, give you more medium-large parts to use... It's sort of 'penned in' as the launcher component of the next release, with the rest of the new stuff being focused on payloads/spacecraft type stuff. I'd like to finish the Gemini lander, get the MOL updates pushed out, maybe some new LEM stuff? Idk.

SSTU's Delta IV is pretty good (as is SSTU in general), I'm also a fan of what you can build using Ven's Stock Revamp (at least the CBC) and Tweakscale. Atlas V... @Pappystein I believe the man rated version simply requires two RL-10s on the Centaur, which is already possible. I am holding off on updating Atlas V still, for several reasons I don't want to go into right now.

In other news, I've had a very busy past few days but hopefully we'll get back on the update train soon. My goal is still to have this new release out by Christmas. My immediate to-do is finish the touchups on the Saturn 1 texture sheet, as well as the ones that were started and mostly done on Juno. After that, I'll be doing what I can to find and squash bugs and balance issues. However, as always I rely extensively on you all playing with the mod and informing me about issues, because I don't spend that much time with it in game. Anyone that wants to help, please download the master file off of Github and play with it ingame, particularly new or updated parts, and let me know if there are any issues. Posts on the thread are appreciated, logging things as issues on GitHub is even more helpful.

[RaiderMan]

19 hours ago, seads23 said:

Hey @CobaltWolf! I was wondering if you were considering adding the Delta IV and Delta IV Heavy to BDB. I would really like to see them in this mod! Also, are you considering adding the Man-Rated version of the Atlas V? Thank you, and have a good day!

if you want a delta IV heavy..I can point you in the direction of two mods you'll need, and furnish a model file of the delta built with said mods

[Cdodders]

On 10/12/2017 at 1:31 PM, Drakenex said:

look no further! Drakenex's Deluxe Counterfeits have the solution

 

This brand new wet workshop (nope, isn't old Skylab one ) holds same amount of fuel than the SIVB-11300 tank, but after performing your TVI (or any other interplanetary injection) powerful pumps will suck it dry so you can furnish it with your favorite scientific equipment! *

Get it here

 

 

* It's just a SIVB-11300 tank repaint (a very good quality one) using Skylab workshop config sans its mesh switches plus fuel and the ability to dump it. Copy the DDS file on Skylab's folder and the cfg anywhere you want.

I cant find the other parts (I have the wet workshop), are they released not released yet or am I being blind?

[Hay]

8 minutes ago, Cdodders said:

I cant find the other parts (I have the wet workshop), are they released not released yet or am I being blind?

Which parts are you referring to?

[Cdodders]

2 minutes ago, Hay said:

Which parts are you referring to?

The nose part mainly

[Hay]

23 minutes ago, Cdodders said:

The nose part mainly

Those are included with the latest release, I think they'll show up when you search for apollo or saturn in the VAB.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Anyone else find that the Kane-11-5 advanced command pod has almost no air resistance? Just dropped one from the upper atmosphere on Kerbin and it never hit a terminal velocity - was going over 750m/s when it hit the ground. Aero forces overlay says SOME resistance is slowing it down, but not enough to actually decelerate it, apparently...

I would assume this pod would be (roughly) similar to the Mk1-2 pod in terms of terminal velocity.

Could it have something to do with the presence of a ModuleLiftingSurface in the Squad part, or...? Some kind of drag cube issue...?

[wallum61]

1 hour ago, Cdodders said:

I cant find the other parts (I have the wet workshop), are they released not released yet or am I being blind?

If you go onto the BDB Github, accessible in the original post and download the master file it contains the new parts that you can use in your saves. The wet workshop is a patch for the Skylab which has been released but the new parts are those designed for Apollo Venus Flyby; not yet released.

[notJebKerman]

On 12/10/2017 at 2:31 PM, Drakenex said:

look no further! Drakenex's Deluxe Counterfeits have the solution

 

This brand new wet workshop (nope, isn't old Skylab one ) holds same amount of fuel than the SIVB-11300 tank, but after performing your TVI (or any other interplanetary injection) powerful pumps will suck it dry so you can furnish it with your favorite scientific equipment! *

Get it here

 

* It's just a SIVB-11300 tank repaint (a very good quality one) using Skylab workshop config sans its mesh switches plus fuel and the ability to dump it. Copy the DDS file on Skylab's folder and the cfg anywhere you want.

Thank you!

[debaker02]

@CobaltWolf

A while back you said you were looking for odd and ends to model for Apollo.  I just found this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(satellite)  The saturn 1 was used to launch micro meteorite experiments, it seems neat as it unfolds like a big sheet.  It would be a science experiment i think?

 

[mrtagnan]

@CobaltWolf For some reason most of the Saturn engines aren't showing up in game? Any idea why this is happening?

[wallum61]

2 hours ago, mrtagnan said:

 For some reason most of the Saturn engines aren't showing up in game? Any idea why this is happening?

Are any of the other engines appearing? What about the Saturn fuel tanks, etc? 

[Neil Kerman]

Does anyone know how to get tweakscale to work with parts from this mod in the pod category?

Here's the log

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pGxcaPb5m-MuZGGiEKr3Py1CNEDWFi51

Edited December 18, 2017 by Neil Kerman

[mrtagnan]

15 hours ago, wallum61 said:

Are any of the other engines appearing? What about the Saturn fuel tanks, etc? 

A few other engines aren't appearing, I couldn't build the Atlas V because I couldn't find the centaur engine. All engines for Saturn except the JS-25 sea level engine (pretty sure that's the name) are not in game. The only extra I'm using is the real names config but I've tried it without that and it still doesn't work.

[RaiderMan]

I find it more helpful to search for the stage, in the case of the saturn, s-1c for the first stage, s-II for the second(roman numerals) and lastly s-ivb for the third stage. use wikipedia to look up the rocket you're trying to build, most if not all entries include the make and model of engine..and that information more often than not produces results in ksp's parts search bar.

[Cheesecake]

 

35 minutes ago, mrtagnan said:

A few other engines aren't appearing, I couldn't build the Atlas V because I couldn't find the centaur engine. All engines for Saturn except the JS-25 sea level engine (pretty sure that's the name) are not in game. The only extra I'm using is the real names config but I've tried it without that and it still doesn't work.

The engines are all ingame. The RL-10 and Centaur-Tanks too. But you need Community Ressource Pack because the RL-10 and the Centaur-tanks uses Liquid Hydrogen instead of Liquidfuel. Also the J-2 uses LH2. So without Community Ressource Pack (you should look at the dependencies of BDB) this parts are not ingame.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Cheesecake

[mrtagnan]

3 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

 

The engines are all ingame. The RL-10 and Centaur-Tanks too. But you need Community Ressource Pack because the RL-10 and the Centaur-tanks uses Liquid Hydrogen instead of Liquidfuel. Also the J-2 uses LH2. So without Community Ressource Pack (you should look at the dependencies of BDB) this parts are not ingame.

I do have CRP installed already so it's not that.

3 hours ago, RaiderMan said:

I find it more helpful to search for the stage, in the case of the saturn, s-1c for the first stage, s-II for the second(roman numerals) and lastly s-ivb for the third stage. use wikipedia to look up the rocket you're trying to build, most if not all entries include the make and model of engine..and that information more often than not produces results in ksp's parts search bar.

I've checked, their files are in the right place but ingame the don't show up anywhere.