CobaltWolf

[1.4.X] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.4.2 "I numbered this update before KSP updated" 1/Feb/2018)

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2 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Hmm, I should maybe make a toggle to add a interstage node... in case you wanted to put an LDC upper stage on it? lol.

At first, I'm thinking of flipping the fairing-base to put 2.5 meters stage on top of LDC first stage. But your idea is interesting too!

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2 minutes ago, Pulsar said:

At first, I'm thinking of flipping the fairing-base to put 2.5 meters stage on top of LDC first stage. But your idea is interesting too!

Either way I'd have to make sure there's a node flush with the 3.125m mating surface (normally the fairing would just sprout from there).

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Again me, again localization.

Is the problem "move all the names and descriptions into a single loc file" or "translate a lot of text" thing?

If it's the second, i REALLY can help doing this.

 

-----SUGGESTIONS START HERE-----

Spoiler

A version WITHOUT CommunityResourcePack dependency

A version WITHOUT B9PartSwitch dependency

A version WITHOUT DmagicScienceAnimate dependency

-------SUGGESTIONS END HERE-------

Edited by Gapone

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Meant to respond to these this morning...

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:42 PM, Pappystein said:

Thanks for re-posting that here.   It gives us your followers a good "minds's eye" view into what you are going through and your plans. 

Yeah it's nice to give people insight into my ongoing mental breakdowns :P

 

On 12/3/2018 at 3:20 PM, williamhall531@gmail.com said:

There is a small spelling mistake on one part, on the title, it says Vexin, but in the description it says vixen. I might have already said this, and it might have been fixed, but I'm just very forgetful, and wanted to mention it before I forget again.

On 12/3/2018 at 8:04 PM, Pappystein said:

So no Vixens for you?   :P

In all seriousness I will confirm this @Jso   If you are not using RealNames the engine shows up as Vixen.

I checked this, I can confirm that the part is using the correct "Vixen" name in both the in-game name and description. The real engine IS called the "Vexin" and is written as such in the part's internal cfg name, and yes should show up as Vexin if the RealNames patch is used.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 9:34 PM, AlphaMensae said:

Something I've made for the Tier 2 launch pad...which just happens to be inspired by the Gemini-Titan II ;)

Awesome as always!

 

On 12/4/2018 at 7:14 AM, Raptor22 said:

If I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions for this mod, mainly in concern to the content used to distribute it and the information about it (downloads and wiki, rather than actual in-game content). You do not have to use any of these - I just wanted to get these ideas out of my head and on to "paper," in a sense.

 

Firstly, it may be beneficial to split the downloads in to several "packs," depending on what parts people wish to use. Personally, I don't use the probes very much, however I still wish to hang on to the Apollo subsatellite. To get rid of the other parts, I'd have to go digging through the files and deleting the ones that I don't use - doable, but a pain.
I'd recommend that you split them up as you have them listed on your wiki; An Early Rockets pack, and Early Craft and Probes pack, Atlas pack, Thor/Delta Pack, Titan Pack (Could include Leo/Gemini), Saturn Pack (could include Kane/Apollo), Payloads pack, etc. When extracted, the files would be added to the same Bluedog_DB folder.
It's not extremely necessary, but it would allow people to more easily pick and choose which parts they want to use, and which they don't, without having to go through and manually trim out what they don't use. This is already a pretty massive mod, and even my decently beefy gaming PC takes quite a while to load all of the files for it. Being able to leave out some content while keeping others would probably reduce load time.

Secondly, once you have your wiki updated with all of the new parts, you may want to consider making KSPedia entries for them. That way, you won't have to alt+tab between the game and the github page over and over when building a craft.
Whenever you make the page for the Hokulani (if you make a page), it'd be nice if you included a few diagrams of the expansions for the Hokulani, such as the separate airlock module and the foreign research module. I've scoured the web trying to find references to these things and other Skylab expansions and I can't find any good references as to how the modules would be arranged. I know that this is probably just a "do what you want with it" sort of thing, but I'm a stickler for semi-accurate re-creation.

Thirdly, you may want to make the Kane/Apollo heatshield a lifting surface. For the longest time I could not figure out why I could not "fly" the pod back in to the atmosphere until I checked the part information and saw that it had no lift characteristics.

Finally, as for in-game content, I might recommend that you make a cross-over with Cormorant Aeronology (similar to how you did with CxAerospace) to create the reboost module for the Hokulani/Skylab.

I really do love this mod, and I've had a great time making some of my own post-Apollo missions, trying to imagine what they would be like if they had not been cancelled. Can't wait to see what's coming up next.

I am glad I held off on replying, since you seem to have made some edits and added some more comments! :)

First, splitting the download - that is addressed in the FAQ in the OP of the thread so look there for a few more words on the subject. Basically, it's a lot of work to split things up, and maintain separate packs, for somewhat questionable gain. It is (at least to me - do people not agree with this?) trivial to just delete the folders in Bluedog_DB/Parts/ that you don't want. In general I'm really mostly in this for making the parts and stuff like balancing and documentation are pretty miserable for me to work on.

I don't know much about KSPedia entries, other than they are a real pain to set up and edit. A wiki page for the Skylab parts is definitely one that I'd like to see made, though again I really don't enjoy working on documentation like that (they're really, really time consuming if they are going to look decent, and can be really easily be made outdated) and so it's really on @Jso's schedule for if/when that gets done. The only Skylab expansions currently in the mod (unless you count the Venus Flyby Module) are the parts to make the Spacelab from Eyes Turned Skywards - the differences should be pretty obvious from this image. :) 

I texted Jso this morning and we both could have sworn the Apollo had lifting reentry characteristics already. I'm not sure what happened, but he made a commit to add it today (including what looks to be a B9 switcher for shifting the center of mass, like the FASA Apollo does in RO) but said it isn't working right and needs some trouble shooting.

I don't have any plans (or really, interest) at the moment in doing the Skylab reboost module, since it's a fairly complicated part that doesn't have a lot of other application, and it's really only useful for that one mission. Same goes for the Power Module that the Shuttle was supposed to deliver. It's not that I don't think they're cool, there's just other stuff related to Skylab that I find way cooler and would rather spend time on than the Shuttle-Skylab stuff. Also, I'm not entirely sure what I did with CxAerospace (I believe we have APAS-style docking ports that use a rescaled version of his but that's it) but that would be almost two years ago at this point.

Lastly, I'm glad that you like the mod even if it's not always the easiest to use. :)

EDIT: Also, to note - just because I don't enjoy working on documentation and the like, doesn't mean I don't want it to be available! So if anyone wants to help I'm sure it would be appreciated by both myself and the community. :)

Edited by CobaltWolf
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@CobaltWolf Thanks!

I've stayed out of the whole how-to-split-up-BDB, but I feel the best way would be just have two parts:  A core pack and an expanded pack.  The core would only have the stuff that has actually flown, and if there are multiple variants of a rocket/engine that did fly, then just pick a representative version, e.g. the Titan III-E Centaur for the Titan III.  The expanded pack would have everything else:  all the other variants (like Titan III SRBs), the paper rockets and engines, all the ETS stuff, etc..  Atlas V only differs in fairing size and number of SRMs, so all of its parts could be included in the core.

This way there would be smaller, simpler BDB with the stuff most people want, and an expansion pack with all the stuff for the alt-history crowd and total rocket geeks. :)

So I think the core pack could be this:

Mercury-Redstone

Jupiter-C

Vanguard

Thor+one type of SRBs for the early Delta

Diamante

Atlas

One version of the Able, Agena and Centaur upper stages

Gemini-Titan II + one set of Titan III SRBS

Apollo-Saturn IB-Saturn V-Skylab , just the historical spacecraft, stages and engines, and Saturn I goes into the expanded pack.

Atlas V

Delta II

Athena II for the Peacekeeper-derived lifters (though all those lifters and associated parts could go into the expanded pack since they are kind of niche).

 

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44 minutes ago, AlphaMensae said:

@CobaltWolf Thanks!

I've stayed out of the whole how-to-split-up-BDB, but I feel the best way would be just have two parts:  A core pack and an expanded pack.  The core would only have the stuff that has actually flown, and if there are multiple variants of a rocket/engine that did fly, then just pick a representative version, e.g. the Titan III-E Centaur for the Titan III.  The expanded pack would have everything else:  all the other variants (like Titan III SRBs), the paper rockets and engines, all the ETS stuff, etc..  Atlas V only differs in fairing size and number of SRMs, so all of its parts could be included in the core.

@AlphaMensae

I will go on the record stating that I am apposed to splitting BDB up in any way at all.    While I do feel the parts could use a good re-organization and isolation... @CobaltWolf is already doing that.   One part at a time.

Having said that however your point of a "Core" and "Expanded" BDB actually makes the most sense of any proposed "splits" of BDB I have read or chatted about (Discord/Twitch etc.)    Well thought out and there is a point.   The Expansion RELIES on the Core so textures and models could be re-used.

The drawback is I see there would have to be a full time "Moderator" to maintain what is core and what is not....  To verify add on functionality (EG B9PS, TAC-LS, whatever other "compatibly" change,)  and the Hold the line for everything.    Adding more permanent hands might seem to make Cobaltwolf's job easier but it makes more "Make Work"      It is for these reasons in part that I am apposed to splitting BDB up.   Butyour suggestions are the most well thought out and cleanest split suggestions I have seen.    BDB isn't BDB without the history of US space flight in it.    Just support a Gemini pack might be good for one or 5 people but that does NOT in my opinion represent that special thing that BDB is all about.  

Truthfully what is needed is a way to clone the Cobaltwolf Texturing/Modeling ability 5 or 6 times over so that each clone's work looks JUST as good as Cobalt's....  We need to clone 3 or 4 JSO's so the number crunching / testing can be spread around and we need to find a way to FUND all of these people to only work on this mod 30+ hours a week... no extra job needed to live a great life!

Sadly I am not a multi-millionaire (or I would be working on buying my first big truck as pictured in my avatar) and sadly no one has found a legal way to clone people yet.....  

Ok so I took a serious statement and gave you both a serious reply and a funny(ish) reply.  

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Gapone said:

A version WITHOUT CommunityResourcePack dependency

A version WITHOUT B9PartSwitch dependency

A version WITHOUT DmagicScienceAnimate dependency

Why would you want that?

Delete the science parts and you don't need DMagic. CRP and B9 aren't going anywhere.

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4 hours ago, Jso said:

CRP and B9 aren't going anywhere

CRP = Saturn and Centaur.

B9 = ?

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On 11/30/2018 at 1:47 PM, Gapone said:

LOCALIZATION!

It might not be apparent but you are asking for something that is incredibly difficult. There is a reason that stock KSP didn't get localized until years after its initial release and even then, it took over a year for it to get localized into more than 5 languages. Even after all that it was a year or more to work out all the stuff they got wrong in the process. The resources of a whole company took years to do that. The other thing to consider is that in general mods don't get translated. The only mod that I know has been translated is Tantares and that work wasn't done by Beale, it was done by other people who contributed their own time to translate it. If some one did that for BDB then it would probably become part of the mod.

11 hours ago, Gapone said:

A version WITHOUT CommunityResourcePack dependency

A version WITHOUT B9PartSwitch dependency

A version WITHOUT DmagicScienceAnimate dependency

19 minutes ago, Gapone said:

CRP = Saturn and Centaur.

B9 = ?

CRP can't just be ripped out and have everything stay balanced or even functional. I remember the authors of this mod beating themselves up trying to think of a way to do justice to these rockets without introducing a dependency. In the end they realized there was no other way.

B9 is used by a huge number of the parts in this pack, some of those uses are for aesthetic reasons but many are not and contribute to the utility of the part. Without B9, BDB would have to multiply it's memory footprint many times over to retain the same functionality.

Dmagic has already been addressed.

The dependencies are there for a good reason, the mod simply could not be what it is without them.

Edited by Foxxonius Augustus
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2 minutes ago, Foxxonius Augustus said:

it was done by other people who contributed their own time to translate it. If some one did that for BDB

Look for my upper post. I REALLY can translate the WHOLE mod into Russian. More, I WANT to do it.

All I need is dictionary.cfg or whatever file.

Edited by Gapone

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9 minutes ago, Gapone said:

Look for my upper post. I REALLY can translate the WHOLE mod into Russian. All I need is dictionary.cfg or whatever file.

I will admit that I don't know how someone would even go about generating a file like that for BDB, but looking at the ones that squad made I can't imagine it to be an easy task. If you take it upon yourself to make such a file for BDB that would be great! In general with BDB, this sort of thing, translation or compatibility and such, is a "You want it, you make it" affair.

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22 minutes ago, Foxxonius Augustus said:

If you take it upon yourself to make such a file for BDB

That's the problem for me.

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3 hours ago, Foxxonius Augustus said:

I will admit that I don't know how someone would even go about generating a file like that for BDB, but looking at the ones that squad made I can't imagine it to be an easy task. If you take it upon yourself to make such a file for BDB that would be great! In general with BDB, this sort of thing, translation or compatibility and such, is a "You want it, you make it" affair.

 

Actually I believe there is a LOT more work to it then that. :/

The steps to localization as I see it:

  1. An English Localization file would have to be made.
  2. then Every part in the mod would have to be remade
  3. Test English Localization
  4. THEN a different (Russian in Gapone's case) file would have to be made. rinse and repeat the testing.
  5. Test Russian Localization to base mod settings
  6. the a Real Names English Localziation would have to be made
  7. Test English Real Names Loc
  8. Then a Russian Real names would have to be made
  9. Test Russian Real Names Loc

 

Assuming Gapone is going to use Real names, it will also have to be translated into Russian.... that is a 4th Localization file that would have to be made.

 

Now for some good  better news.  

@Gapone you have a passion and desire to see this project moved forward.   The best thing you can do is find out how to make the Dictionary.cfg  yourself and start writing out the Russian Localization for the stock mod as well as the RealNames in Russian.

The Title, The Description and the Tags would all need the localization if not more...

I think that mod-manager can be used to insert localization into a mod by altering the data fields for description and the like.   This would allow you to both build and test the localization, isolated from the main mod development.... If that is something you want to put the effort into.   I the end both JSO and CobaltWolf have been willing to add other peoples content to the mod in the past... if it makes sense and does not blow the mod up.   Why else is there a BDB extras folder?

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5 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Actually I believe there is a LOT more work to it then that.

IDK (I Don't Kare).

5 hours ago, Pappystein said:

then Every part in the mod would have to be remade

Why? Is it "write loc keys instead of text" thing?

Edited by Gapone

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On 12/4/2018 at 7:14 AM, Raptor22 said:

Thirdly, you may want to make the Kane/Apollo heatshield a lifting surface. For the longest time I could not figure out why I could not "fly" the pod back in to the atmosphere until I checked the part information and saw that it had no lift characteristics.

This has been corrected. There's also a center of mass adjust @Marcelo Silveira put together that toggles in flight and gives the capsule a 10 degree pitch. Look for that on the right click menu. With the CoM offset reentry should be head down to get lift. I did manage a skip reentry after several attempts.

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[MOD - Folks, just a friendly reminder that at the end of the day, modders create third-party content out of their personal love of the game, and while they may take user feedback into consideration, they are not obligated to implement every suggestion (especially if it is technically infeasible or contradicts their personal vision for their mod).

You are welcome to continue making suggestions, but please don't repeatedly pester the mod author, especially if they (or those closely familiar with the mod) have already addressed whether or not your suggestion has been accepted.

Thanks!]

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So question.   JSO how did you skip in?   shallow or deep?

 

The reason I ask is I have tried to do a Sanger Skip orbital flight for years with KSP and have utterly failed...   Just trying to figure out if it is the guy behind the Keyboard or of that is a KSP limitation.

 

 

Edited by Pappystein

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49 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

So question.   JSO how did you skip in?   shallow or deep?

 

I think it was 45,000m periapsis on a Mun return. This is 2.5x so that's 5000+mps. I really don't know how much the lift contributed vs just aerobraking into a suborbital trajectory.

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1 hour ago, Jso said:

I think it was 45,000m periapsis on a Mun return. This is 2.5x so that's 5000+mps. I really don't know how much the lift contributed vs just aerobraking into a suborbital trajectory.

I’ve done similar with a Gemini Mum flyby using a heat shield from another mod. Was about a 32km periapsis, popped back up to about 50 before dropping in, I was actually kinda scared I would bounce all the way back out despite trajectories saying I wouldn’t hahaha

It is difficult to target but I don’t believe it is a ksp engine issue so I would say pebkac. :P 

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4 hours ago, Pappystein said:

The reason I ask is I have tried to do a Sanger Skip orbital flight for years with KSP and have utterly failed...   Just trying to figure out if it is the guy behind the Keyboard or of that is a KSP limitation.

I think it's just that the maneuver doesn't make sense at the scale we're playing. Apollo came in at about 11000m/sec. In stock it's 3100, and in 2.5x 5100. There's just a lot more speed to lose in the Earth/Moon system.

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small request

PeIikQz.jpg

April 8th is the anniversary of Gemini 1, so it would be pretty cool to celebrate that with 2 part service module :3

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On 12/5/2018 at 7:09 PM, Pappystein said:

@AlphaMensae

I will go on the record stating that I am apposed to splitting BDB up in any way at all.    While I do feel the parts could use a good re-organization and isolation... @CobaltWolf is already doing that.   One part at a time.

...Cont.

I am also opposed to this idea. But if it were to be done, Contares which was a beast of a mod in size, was handled in a very good way. They made a core mod and separated the rest by country. 

For BDB I believe there could be a similar system. Core mod with the bare minimum and a sub-folder system much like the one that exists, separated by craft (e.g. Titan, Delta, Saturn, Gemini...etc.). Otherwise the only other way I see is by programs (e.g. Mercury Program, Gemini Program, Apollo Program...etc.) with their respective launch vehicles and whatnot. 

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gsJ1Kfm.pngekP3bgg.pngqaHsYj5.pngEJyyvwm.pngwdab4c5.png

Also, Jso has continued to update the wiki, most recently the Skylab page. These images he's been making are so cool! :)

Skylab-Launch.pngSkylab-Wetlab.pngSkylab-CSM-LEM-ATM.pngSkylab-LEM-ATM.pngSkylab-Spacelab-and-VFB.png

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Looks awesome as usual @CobaltWolf!

 

Public Service Announcement for 1.5.1 players:

The currently bundled version of B9PartSwitch in BDB 1.4.4 is outdated!

It works fine in KSP 1.4.x, but in 1.5.x the attachement nodes of the RD-180 (Muo-5E-2207 "Czar") wont switch with the mesh and thus, the engine will clip into the main tank.

Manually update to the most recent version of B9PartSwitch *here* to fix that.

 

Peace

TK

Edited by Tiankay

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On 12/5/2018 at 10:43 AM, Pulsar said:

At first, I'm thinking of flipping the fairing-base to put 2.5 meters stage on top of LDC first stage. But your idea is interesting too!

Oh, to address this - I had to upscale the fairing diameter to 3.5m. At 3.125m the size ratio was off because the core is overscaled (2.5m is too big for an Atlas V, basically) and it was REALLY obvious that the fairing was too skinny. The Atlas V 5xx's profile is pretty distinctive and I didn't feel comfortable releasing it like that.

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