CobaltWolf

[1.6.X] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.5.2 "Бруно" 8/Feb/2019)

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10 hours ago, Kerbal01 said:

I learned this while doing some research for the TItan IIIA page on wikipedia. Ed Kyle's site set me straight.

While he mentions it several times in the wording on his site.... Ed Kyle's page is a very good reference but it is not 100% accurate.  Specifically many of the Titan Drawings for the later Titan 3 Rockets have the stage lengths being wrong per his own descriptive text.  

 

10 hours ago, Kerbal01 said:

I learned this while doing some research for the TItan IIIA page on wikipedia. Ed Kyle's site set me straight.


Didn't the japanese end up doing basically this with the N-I/II rocket that was delta derived?

Yes and no,  The Japanese upper stage is nearly 100% New Engineering.  The HOSS upper Stage is a repurposed Delta 2 tankage that has been cut down.   That means it is likely LESS efficient than the Japanese upper stage (and probably why it didn't go into production.)   I would rate efficiency wise, the Delta 3/4 DCSS, then the and the H-II  upper stage THEN HOSS.  That due to boil off concerns.   The DCSS is an evolved H-II after all with an RL10 engine vs the LE-5

BUT HOSS is probably the easiest to model Game wise.A Tank and An Engine plate that allows the Delta II inter-stage to work with RL10 engines. and a small adapter plate for a PLF and Delta Guidance (re-purpose the Delta P one most likely)

Edited by Pappystein
Corrected statement highlited.

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13 hours ago, Pappystein said:

But never has there been a LES for Gemini.

To be fair, Gemini used ejection seats. The proposed Big Gemini ('Big G') was going to have an LES, but it was never constructed.

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25 minutes ago, Taki117 said:

To be fair, Gemini used ejection seats. The proposed Big Gemini ('Big G') was going to have an LES, but it was never constructed.

Actually that is sort of an urban legend almost and kind of. The Ejection seats were not usable on the launch pad and not at high speed/pressure.  So the Retros are used in stead.  Instead of burning in series like they would to de-orbit they all burn at once.  At one point McD-D was looking into North American Aviation's "Escape Capsule" for the F-108 Rapier and the B-70 Valkyrie...   It was to big and to unweildly.  In the end the Retro rockets have enough impulse in most of the flight modes except at ground level to separate the capsule from the rocket.   Then if the capsule itself is damaged or parachute is unable to deploy, The crew eject at low-medium altitude.

I may not have that 100% correct, my Gemini book is buried in my storage locker ATM.

The Craziest one is that for the Gemini B however.  The huge hole for astronauts to navigate back to KH-10 Dorian/MOL is just near the center of the "SM" section on Gemini B.  So USAF/McDonald  Douglas had to design a retro package of 9 small SRMs that burnt in such away to keel thrust line through the center of mass of the Gemini B capsule.   There is a small window with Gemini B that an Abort was impossible on due to this asymmetric thrust and it's interaction with the CoM and CoP (could not line up all three.)  So many of the Gemini B abort modes were abort to orbit.. AKA Hang on and Hope nothing worse happens.  Also given the thrust line, the Gemini B retro-ed Nose down vs the Standard Gemini.   By my calculations about 10-15 degrees nose down.

 

 

Edited by Pappystein
Clairity about Ejection seat opperation

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:45 PM, MaverickSawyer said:

If it's not too difficult to implement, I'd go for it. If it'd be a pain to do, skip it.

On 2/19/2019 at 2:07 PM, Taki117 said:

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. As it stands BDB is probably the most versatile mod Ive ever seen. You can make historic stuff, or toss parts together to make whatever you want.  I wouldn't change that at all and I feel like adding more realism would do just that.

19 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Personally I don't see the point... that is unless they actually modify how boil-off works for BDB?

Or if you need it to make the stage look better.

Hmm, alright. Yeah I'm not sure how much it would affect gameplay but it would certainly be interesting, and maybe something of a history lesson. In any case I'm not doing anything with the Centaur parts again any time soon... well, mayyybe the G/T tankage as part of the Titan update.

 

19 hours ago, Barzon Kerman said:

I personally would like a dual mount for the Centaur V, if possible?

18 hours ago, Pappystein said:

The original Centaur Engine plate was re-made...ish.  It now has built in RCS?!...  It supports 2x engine mounting and is similar shape/size to the Centaur V engine plate.

Yeah, the two engine mounts are basically the same just with different nodes and slightly different RCS. I intended for people to use the old Centaur mount for a dual engine Atlas V Centaur. I want to remake the non-Atlas V Centaur parts but like I said the other day they're not an immediate priority, which is why I decided to put the evening or two into adding the built in RCS to the dual-engine mount. If anyone is wondering, since I don't think I elaborated on why we did that change, we kept running into issues between the colliders of the attachable Centaur RCS blocks and the interstages.

 

19 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

They're be cool, make them. 

I already know you want them :):P

 

17 hours ago, Drakenex said:

^ yes

And that's not Centaur V (the one already included), it's Atlas V Centaur, different from the 5.4m real Centaur V (in development), confusing? yup, a lot

Zero interest in doing the new Vulcan's Centaur. Hopefully @Superpenguin160's life settles down enough for him to finish his Vulcan mod.

 

17 hours ago, Pappystein said:

So for the longest time we have had Launch escape systems for Apollo, and Mercury in this beautiful mod.   But never has there been a LES for Gemini.   Yes part of the reason is that the SM is made as one part and not two (lets NOT go down that road please!) BUT with the new Atlas V Seperation motor... we can come up with a LES that works in all flight modes:

Yes that is TWO of the new Atlas V stage seperatrons added with the most recent release on each TB-16 on the Big Gemini capsule.    With 6 pairs of these mini SRMs I was, in 2.5scale Galileo, able to abort a Big-G in any flight mode other than pointing down at 1000m or less.   I have not tested on a Basic Gemini capsule yet but I am hopeful that only 4x total of the SRMs are needed to safely save a Gemini.... (Say that 5 times fast.)

More pictures of the BigG Service module in this post:   They are post Escape module separation however.

4 hours ago, Taki117 said:

To be fair, Gemini used ejection seats. The proposed Big Gemini ('Big G') was going to have an LES, but it was never constructed.

3 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Actually that is sort of an urban legend almost and kind of. The Ejection seats were not usable on the launch pad and not at high speed/pressure.  So the Retros are used in stead.  Instead of burning in series like they would to de-orbit they all burn at once.  At one point McD-D was looking into North American Aviation's "Escape Capsule" for the F-108 Rapier and the B-70 Valkyrie...   It was to big and to unweildly.  In the end the Retro rockets have enough impulse in most of the flight modes except at ground level to separate the capsule from the rocket.   Then if the capsule itself is damaged or parachute is unable to deploy, The crew eject at low-medium altitude.

I may not have that 100% correct, my Gemini book is buried in my storage locker ATM.

The Craziest one is that for the Gemini B however.  The huge hole for astronauts to navigate back to KH-10 Dorian/MOL is just near the center of the "SM" section on Gemini B.  So USAF/McDonald  Douglas had to design a retro package of 9 small SRMs that burnt in such away to keel thrust line through the center of mass of the Gemini B capsule.   There is a small window with Gemini B that an Abort was impossible on due to this asymmetric thrust and it's interaction with the CoM and CoP (could not line up all three.)  So many of the Gemini B abort modes were abort to orbit.. AKA Hang on and Hope nothing worse happens.  Also given the thrust line, the Gemini B retro-ed Nose down vs the Standard Gemini.   By my calculations about 10-15 degrees nose down.

If I ever remake the Gemini parts, I feel a proper two-part SM would be more appropriate for BDB these days than it was back when the parts were originally made by Beale.

I've never seen those statements on using the retro motors for the Gemini abort modes, are you sure?

There was a Big G LES tower in @tg626's TRAILS fork, but I don't know if the quality is good enough to port it back to BDB.

 

16 hours ago, Kerbal01 said:

I learned this while doing some research for the TItan IIIA page on wikipedia. Ed Kyle's site set me straight.


Didn't the japanese end up doing basically this with the N-I/II rocket that was delta derived?

6 hours ago, Pappystein said:

While he mentions it several times in the wording on his site.... Ed Kyle's page is a very good reference but it is not 100% accurate.  Specifically many of the Titan Drawings for the later Titan 3 Rockets have the stage lengths being wrong per his own descriptive text.  

 

Yes and no,  The Japanese upper stage is nearly 100% New Engineering.  The HOSS upper Stage is a repurposed Delta 2 tankage that has been cut down.   That means it is likely LESS efficient than the Japanese upper stage (and probably why it didn't go into production.)   I would rate efficiency wise, the Delta 3/4 DCSS, then the and the H-II  upper stage THEN HOSS.  That due to boil off concerns.   The DCSS is an evolved H-II after all with an RL10 engine vs the LE-5

BUT HOSS is probably the easiest to model Game wise.A Tank and An Engine plate that allows the Delta II inter-stage to work with RL10 engines. and a small adapter plate for a PLF and Delta Guidance (re-purpose the Delta P one most likely)

The N-I and N-II rockets are basically a Delta M and a Delta 1000-series, respectively. Various parts were replaced by domestically produced parts at different points, for example the N-I's LE-3 second stage engine. Pappy, you're getting ahead of yourself. We're not talking about the DCSS or the H-II upper stage, Kerbal01 was talking about the H-I upper stage which is similar. The document I linked describes things pretty clearly, and was pretty interesting to read. The HOSS is made out of Thor tank segments (the proposal predates Delta II by 20 years), with every component essentially being off the shelf or dead-simple integration work like the new structural interstage. They go through pains to point out that HOSS would have sacrificed efficiency at every opportunity in exchange for cost reductions, reliability, and being able to use off the shelf components. Despite this the payload numbers compare favorably to the much later Deltas, with larger/more solids, larger first stage, and a larger second stage. I'm sure if HOSS flew it would have been part of the incremental upgrade scheme that the Delta program has always favored, and thus they'd slowly improve the efficiency and performance losses caused by the relatively inefficient construction in the study.

It's interesting that they didn't plan on giving it an 8ft fairing, considering the Delta 1000-series would soon fly with an 8ft fairing and encapsulated upper stage. They do mention using a 10ft Titan fairing, since that would be taken from something like a Titan 3D I imagine that would give it a look similar to the Delta 10ft metallic payload fairing (second from left below).

Delta-fair.jpg

 

 

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37 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

I've never seen those statements on using the retro motors for the Gemini abort modes, are you sure?

 

No and I won't get to my Storage locker till tomorrow.   I have a bunch of contractors running around my house today so joy :(  I will say in re-reading that post I wasn't as clear as I should be.   After clearing the tower until about 40+/- seconds into the flight it is Ejection seats to the rescue.   Beyond the point of Mach 1, if I recall correctly it was fire all 4 SRMs at once on the retro stage and hope you have enough thrust + Delta to break away from the Titan Behind you.   Or Quoted from Wikipedia:

Retro module

The Retro module contained four solid-fuel TE-M-385 Star-13E retrorockets, each spherical in shape except for its rocket nozzle, which were structurally attached to two beams that reached across the diameter of the retro module, crossing at right angles in the center.[20] Re-entry began with the retrorockets firing one at a time. Abort procedures at certain periods during lift-off would cause them to fire at the same time, thrusting the Descent module away from the Titan rocket.

 

38 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

There was a Big G LES tower in @tg626's TRAILS fork, but I don't know if the quality is good enough to port it back to BDB.

The LES tower design was never finalized to my knowledge.   I have several drawings showing part or all of the LES and each one is different.   About the only thing that is universal is they attach at the back end of the landing gear bay on the Gemini capsule  OR  They attach in the middle of the space a Gear bay would be on a Big G module (they were still trying to get Rogilo to work for Big G in some parts of the McDonnell' Gemini program engineering department.

45 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

The document I linked describes things pretty clearly, and was pretty interesting to read. The HOSS is made out of Thor tank segments (the proposal predates Delta II by 20 years), with every component essentially being off the shelf or dead-simple integration work like the new structural interstage. They go through pains to point out that HOSS would have sacrificed efficiency at every opportunity in exchange for cost reductions, reliability, and being able to use off the shelf components. Despite this the payload numbers compare favorably to the much later Deltas, with larger/more solids, larger first stage, and a larger second stage. I'm sure if HOSS flew it would have been part of the incremental upgrade scheme that the Delta program has always favored, and thus they'd slowly improve the efficiency and performance losses caused by the relatively inefficient construction in the study.

 

Yeah I got half way through and probably took it the wrong way.  I actually think a Delta HOSS would be an awesome upper stage.  And no I was only comparing it to the H-II and DCSS as a point on the scale of efficiency.    

I would LOVE to see the HOSS added in game.  Because yes it isn't as efficient as the later Cryos but it still makes a MB-3 powered Thor-Delta into an amazing rocket beyond what it already is.  I am guessing the parts for it sans the engine should be 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost of equivalent Centaur parts?  No insulation, No advanced materials etc?

 

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1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Yeah I got half way through and probably took it the wrong way.  I actually think a Delta HOSS would be an awesome upper stage.  And no I was only comparing it to the H-II and DCSS as a point on the scale of efficiency.    

I would LOVE to see the HOSS added in game.  Because yes it isn't as efficient as the later Cryos but it still makes a MB-3 powered Thor-Delta into an amazing rocket beyond what it already is.  I am guessing the parts for it sans the engine should be 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost of equivalent Centaur parts?  No insulation, No advanced materials etc?

As far as I'm concerned the only thing needed for HOSS would be a bespoke tank - and even that can maybe be cobbled together from Long Tank Thor's model and textures. The RL10 has a fairing switcher these days for 1.5m, I'm planning on doing some serious overhauling of the upper stage RCS (more variants, better attachment control, more agnostic so that they can be used nicely with any small upper stage) so that takes care of that, etc. Should be easy to implement and covers one of the few unflown Delta concepts I've ever come across.

Speaking of which, I was thinking last night about how easy the geometry for a double barrel Delta adapter would be...

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Finally got to flying an Atlas V 55x (self-contained upper stage and payload, no Centaur), and got an opportunity to catch the booster jettison...

2KMaSnk.png

ygXHDqI.png

Please forgive the fugly fairing... the payload is a rather bulky (but light) mini-base bound for Duna.

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Speaking of which, I was thinking last night about how easy the geometry for a double barrel Delta adapter would be... 

talk about a fugly rocket... But hey you don't see any/many of those in KSP and none have ever flown IRL to my knowledge...

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Finally managed to land this thing after too many atemps !

 

1550709891-220200-20190221004644-1.png

1550709897-220200-20190221004845-1.png

1550709905-220200-20190221005635-1.png

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1550709940-220200-20190221013738-1.png

The Vejur was a nice stage for moon orbit and descent ! I choose a moon train option like the soviet way to gain weight as I tried into a 2.5 system, it was not that easy !

Edited by DiscoSlelge

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8 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Speaking of which, I was thinking last night about how easy the geometry for a double barrel Delta adapter would be...

“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

6 hours ago, Pappystein said:

talk about a fugly rocket... But hey you don't see any/many of those in KSP and none have ever flown IRL to my knowledge...

I can't tell if you mean fugly rockets in general, or double!Delta in particular. I'll have to give it a go, I suppose...

In any case, I bring forth for your viewing pleasure, another rare aeronautical abomination: The Saturn-Shuttle that nobody wanted, nor the one they deserved. (it's technically Saturn-Buran.)

SXq15Mw.png

Cleek for more.

Spoiler

frQzwjf.png

It does fly.

EzCVYsX.png

I'm not entirely sure what is going on with the F1 plumes here. I kinda felt like I was carving up the launchpad with a plasma cutter. On second thought, that's an awesome idea.

rSOlSye.pngFly!!!!

tUoFWzj.png

We're fine here, just fine. How are you? (No really, it was unscathed, just apparently a bad idea to point two sepratrons directly at each other.)

1kyLrGR.png

Due to still unresolved thrust vector issues, this took approximately 3 forevers to make orbit.

qj131kQ.png

I thought this one was pretty.

Some of you will be gladdened to know that the mission was approximately a disaster. Ran out of fuel cell juice, ran out of monoprop, created about 200 dV from the ether by trying to hook the payload to the robot arm while still attached to the same vessel... The four brave white uniformed crew members are safe though, thanks to a semi-planned kinetic halt at the ever growing station.

Speaking of which... Installed this module last week! AxfGzmt.png

Launch 1: Wetlab launched on S1E. Launch 2: One of the 2 CSM on S1B, semi-struggled to orbit with a full fuel load. It docked with the wetlab to perform the initial furnishing/checkout and to then transfer/rendezvous with the station. Arriving at the station, the CSM redocked at a lateral port, and an EVA was performed to change the drogue to a probe. CSM #2 is the rescue/return craft already on station. The two of them in this configuration were able to wrangle the docking, actually fairly decently. I somehow don't have a shot of the completed/current station though. :huh:

Edited by komodo

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8 hours ago, MaverickSawyer said:

Hey, @DiscoSlelge... Where'd the gear on that lander come from, FASA?

Yeah it's FASA for landing legs and the tiny fuel parts with orange spheres :)

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Some Skylab screenies...

I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in the local sphere in this GPP playthrough but stations always distract me from interplanetary. Couldnt help but start tinkering while the first probes are on their way out of the Gael system.

Started out as a fairly standard ETS alt history Spacelab with the bigger solar panels and European exploration module but still including the original Skylab solar observatory. After finishing Gael orbital science I boosted it to Iota where I made my recent expansion by adding my first expansion module consisting of a SSPXr Centrifuge, a Universal Storage II and TAC LS enhanced life support module and a new docking adapter with 3 passive Kane ports, a CADS and a clampotron. Accidentally left behind an Apollo block V hab module between the European Science module and the Centrifuge but I guess it makes for a nice lounge next to the centrifuge crew quarters.

I feel like the mostly linear design of this expansion still kind of evokes the design spirit of the original Skylab

UkNbLsrh.png

The beautiful science instrumentation is always very satisfying. Parts from Probes Plus and DMagic in addition to BDB.

OxIZ8Buh.png

Tb6mzzDh.png

EVA Inspection of new docking module and life support systems

K6Y6qngh.png

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Inspirational.  I've recently launched a BDB + GPP carear and about to start the first MOL build to get science going properly.  I've added Monthly Budgets and nerfed Rep gains, so having to do everything on the cheap.  So far it's forced me to use the earlier rockets for a lot more than the first hour or two of gameplay, which is a nice change.

What suit textures are you using?  I need to find something more in keeping with the BDB theme.

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27 minutes ago, Friznit said:

Inspirational.  I've recently launched a BDB + GPP carear and about to start the first MOL build to get science going properly.  I've added Monthly Budgets and nerfed Rep gains, so having to do everything on the cheap.  So far it's forced me to use the earlier rockets for a lot more than the first hour or two of gameplay, which is a nice change.

 What suit textures are you using?  I need to find something more in keeping with the BDB theme.

Thanks! Personally I'm playing science mode and relying on more of a self directed role play in terms of structuring my space program. 

The suit textures must be the ones included with GPP. They came up as soon as I installed Sigma replacements as recommended by GPP which I forgot initially.

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:37 PM, CobaltWolf said:

Zero interest in doing the new Vulcan's Centaur. Hopefully @Superpenguin160's life settles down enough for him to finish his Vulcan mod.

I don't need you

front_CST_-_100_StarLiner_2.png

well, you've told me to do that but anyway :P

 

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53 minutes ago, Drakenex said:

I don't need you

front_CST_-_100_StarLiner_2.png

well, you've told me to do that but anyway :P

 

ok, three things...
1, COOL as all heck csm/booster.
2, now how the frell did you build it and what parts did you use?
3, I WANT IT!!!

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You can kitbash one together easy enough with stock parts, even if it's a little undersize...

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3 minutes ago, MaverickSawyer said:

You can kitbash one together easy enough with stock parts, even if it's a little undersize...

Or use @Nertea's cryogenic rocket engines in conjunction with appropriate tankage. It contains an RS27 (?) engine with the signature shroud.

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2 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

You can but @CobaltWolfsaid that he didn't want to do it.

kk all good then...hmmm maybe if i make my self better at blender i can do this

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40 minutes ago, Abpilot said:

kk all good then...hmmm maybe if i make my self better at blender i can do this

Hope you do, I would be interested. I'm quite fond of the Delta IV heavy.

In my game I used the RS68 from CryoEngines as suggested above. I found it a bit overpowered compared to the BDB real world analogues and so I tweakscaled the engine down to 2.5m (The original size being 3.75m). The balance hasnt been analysed in detail but I'm happy with it.

I used procedural tanks with basic procedural textures for the cores. I guess procedural fairings would complete the look but I dont have it in my current modlist.

zzjaMg0h.png

tNU9wE2h.png

Whats great is that this post is in fact fully on topic as I kitbashed the DCSS upper stage using mostly BDB parts

c1bK9KEh.png

Admittedly the strutwork doesnt look great compared to the 3.75m version of the rocket I first built as that was easier to work with (I tweakscaled up the BDB parts in that version)

MkBmrDvh.png

Parts used. Its mostly Centaur bits with a Vega control block for the top of the lower tank (remember to switch the fuel) and a procedural tank for the top with Centaur T adapter.

LF1g7Zmh.png

edit: updated the DCSS pictures, just realised I built this from an imported craft file from an older game back before the single engine Centaur V mount was available.

Edited by Zorg

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1 hour ago, Zorg said:

Whats great is that this post is in fact fully on topic as I kitbashed the DCSS upper stage using mostly BDB parts

Or just use @benjee10reDirect one

HljKqUX.png

 

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20 minutes ago, Drakenex said:

Or just use @benjee10reDirect one

 

 

Thanks! I had seen reDirect but didn't realise it had DCSS parts. I've seen DCSS in another mod but the mod wasn't to my taste, will check this one out.

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