CobaltWolf

[1.6.X] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.5.2 "Бруно" 8/Feb/2019)

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Posted (edited)

I fell down a @Well and found an X-20.

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EDIT: His thread is up

 

Edited by CobaltWolf

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I fell down a @Well and found an X-20.
AQep7Gv.png
 

 

Beautiful screen shots.  Your complex of launch pads for your photo-ops is coming along nicely.   Yes they are from other mods but you placed and put them together.   It is looking good... if Kerbal unsafe (too close together?)

So a few questions about the launch.   So I take it this didn't fly without the fins or did you put them on for the it looked better factor?

With IronCretin's original files it was impossible to launch as designed on a Titan IIIC... that is to say with no fins.   I guess I am asking were you able to launch it without fins on a IIIC?

Did you de-orbit early or were you unable to get up to full orbital speed on a IIIC stack?

 

Edited by Pappystein
re-organized to be a clearer read.

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1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Beautiful screen shots.  Your complex of launch pads for your photo-ops is coming along nicely.   Yes they are from other mods but you placed and put them together.   It is looking good... if Kerbal unsafe (too close together?)

So a few questions about the launch.   So I take it this didn't fly without the fins or did you put them on for the it looked better factor?

With IronCretin's original files it was impossible to launch as designed on a Titan IIIC... that is to say with no fins.   I guess I am asking were you able to launch it without fins on a IIIC?

Did you de-orbit early or were you unable to get up to full orbital speed on a IIIC stack?

@AlphaMensae's Modular Launch Pads just keeps getting better and better. I just moved to 1.7 and updated my dev build and was amazed at how much was added. :)

No, it was completely uncontrollable without the fins... I'm not sure how much of that is due to KSP aero and how much is the design of the Dyna-soar stack itself.

I have never really done spaceplanes, and the only couple of attempts YEARS ago when I actually played, I never figured out how to hit the KSC. I'm no good at these things, I stick to capsules :P

With that said, I do believe this just barely made orbit... after I accidentally staged away my second stage without igniting the engine... and after I decoupled the transtage by accident... but not before igniting it! :P Had to do a small circularization burn with the X-20's RCS but it worked in the end I suppose.

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A real Dyna-Soar stack would have required massive fins. By the time the project was canceled, it was to have been launched on a Saturn I with truly ginormous tail-fins. There are renderings in Jenkins' Shuttle history reference books.

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Posted (edited)

There is a decent possibility in the next couple months that I will be in Dayton and thus (for me at least) the Air Force museum. Does anyone know if they have any interesting articles/picture requests of their exhibits?

separately, if you want an example of giant fins, try strapping a buran to the top of a SIC+SII stack. That was ... an experience. 

Edited by komodo
Fins

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So basically something I don't see discussed much is the affect of having aerodynamic surfaces at the front of your COM (Center of Mass).

So back in 1903, the Wright Flyer first took off and flew.  However the Brothers noticed a strange phenomenon.  When you pitch up, the aircraft really wants to pitch up badly.  Same with pitching down.  The cause?  When you pulled the lever to pitch up, the elevator of course changes it's Angle of Attack (AOA).  But then the whole aircraft changes its AoA, which changes the Elevator's AoA even more... thus giving you a positive feedback loop.  The Brothers attempted to fix this by adding weight to the front of the aircraft, and elongating later aircraft to move that COM forward for better stability.  With the COM forward and the Center of Lift (COL) offset to the back, the new aircraft was much more stable.  In the end though, elevator controls would be traditionally moved to the tail end for many future aircraft.

So how does this apply to rockets?  In the case of a Spaceplane in front, or on top (I'll just say in front), you have aerodynamic surfaces ahead of the COM, thus the COL is more than likely in front of the COM.  Change the AoA of the rocket, and boom, positive feedback loop and flippy rocket.  I think the most recent images of the Dream Chaser's launch configuration have it completely enveloped in a fairing.  This ends up moving the COL to the back with the COM being forward for stable flight.  Another way to move that pesky COL back is to add wings to the back of your rocket.

So if you're ever given a space plane that sits on top of a rocket, consider where that COL is in relation to the COM.  Only you can prevent flippy rockets!

If I buggered something up here, let me know!  I'm doing this based off of memory, so I probably got something wrong.

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4 hours ago, Deltac said:

Stuff

No, that sounds about right.

With historical hindsight, it's easy to make a plane from scratch. It's just hard to make an good one from scratch  

If you ever get transported to the past, planes are easy: use a flat bottom Clark-Y airfoil (google it) and set the balance at 1/3 from the front of the wing chord (the front to back measure.) adjust the length of the tail until it looks right is and get a hill. Boom, flight!

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7 hours ago, LameLefty said:

A real Dyna-Soar stack would have required massive fins. By the time the project was canceled, it was to have been launched on a Saturn I with truly ginormous tail-fins. There are renderings in Jenkins' Shuttle history reference books.

The UA-1205 was actually designed with Thrust vectoring so that it wouldn't need the fins.   Only the Single stack Titan IIIA would need the fins as designed, hence my question seeing those massive under-used Saturn I/Ia fins!

@CobaltWolf Thanks for the clarification.  I can't wait to get this all together (after I finish my KotOR II play-through...)   Stupid sales on good old star wars games in early may :()  Haven't played the KOTORs in almost 15 years!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

The UA-1205 was actually designed with Thrust vectoring so that it wouldn't need the fins.   Only the Single stack Titan IIIA would need the fins as designed, hence my question seeing those massive under-used Saturn I/Ia fins!

@CobaltWolf Thanks for the clarification.  I can't wait to get this all together (after I finish my KotOR II play-through...)   Stupid sales on good old star wars games in early may :()  Haven't played the KOTORs in almost 15 years!

Yeah, no, the problem with Dyna-soar is it is basically the better part of a decade of compromise and basically trying to hide how nothing in the system was turning out how anyone wanted. So, any depictions of it need to account for at what point in the program they were made... As far as I can tell, any paintings from 1962/1963 (the year it was cancelled) show a Titan 3 with fins.

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1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said:

Yeah, no, the problem with Dyna-soar is it is basically the better part of a decade of compromise and basically trying to hide how nothing in the system was turning out how anyone wanted. So, any depictions of it need to account for at what point in the program they were made... As far as I can tell, any paintings from 1962/1963 (the year it was cancelled) show a Titan 3 with fins.

Ah! Didn't think about that.  Was just going by the texts I have.  Thanks!

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Yeah, no, the problem with Dyna-soar is it is basically the better part of a decade of compromise and basically trying to hide how nothing in the system was turning out how anyone wanted

That thing was an eerie harbinger of things to come in every way it seems like...

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Posted (edited)

The list of revamped Titan variants continue to grow! Thanks Cobalt for this beautiful Titan III E fairing base :D. IIIE is one of my favourite variants and just like the real thing a proper workhorse for interplanetary payloads using the Centaur 3rd stage.

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Ok this variant is incomplete, the Avionics core for the correct second stage tank length is still to come but hey I can stop using the Atlas base on this now.

Edited by Zorg

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Just now, Cheesecake said:

@ZorgAre those PF-Fairings textures from BDB?

Its from a set of WIP procedural fairings textures being worked on by @Drakenex Not yet released publicly.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, komodo said:

That thing was an eerie harbinger of things to come in every way it seems like...

harbinger x4 now at least!

EVERY Aerospace plane has not lived up to their promise.   Some due to corners cut, some due to stupid idea, and most importantly many due to Government interference after dictating their initial want (STS anyone?!)  

Note I don't include the Virgin Galactic birds in the above statment because they are sub orbital and not designed to stay in space.

Followup re the S-1 Fins on the UA-1205.  Suprisingly those look very good in your photo's @CobaltWolf given they are what 2-3 years apart in age?   If it flew well with those fins I will use them :)  

Prior to Well's wellness-update to X-20 I flew the X-20 unsuccessfully 20 out of 21 attempts.   Attempt 21 was my initial Abort at launch pad test...  It went fine.  

and yes, I groaned when I re-read the sentence above.  

Edited by Pappystein

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So, tentative minor announcement... I believe BDB will be on hiatus for the next several weeks. Not for any bad reason, just I am going on an extended (~8 day?) off-the-grid trip at the end of the month and don't think I'll have time to work on BDB any more before I leave since I have a bunch of other stuff going on. Expect development (at least, on my end - idk about Jso :) ) to resume near the beginning of June. For reference we are.... about a third of the way done with this update? ~19 out of ~62 parts 'done', according to my checklist.

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@CobaltWolf would it be possible for you to share this checklist of parts for the next update? :) 

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3 minutes ago, Barzon Kerman said:

@CobaltWolf would it be possible for you to share this checklist of parts for the next update? :) 

It's just a Github issue I logged. https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/issues/519 The number of parts is comparable to the amount in the last update, which took an entire year... I had been hoping to get this update out before my trip so I could feel better while I was away.

That doesn't include finishing the LDC stuff and expanding/updating the MOL stuff which I also wanted to do... I just can't ever work as fast as I want. Eff me I guess.

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Ah, OK :). Enjoy your trip, and dont feel bad about not finishing the LDC stuff :).

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8 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

That doesn't include finishing the LDC stuff and expanding/updating the MOL stuff which I also wanted to do... I just can't ever work as fast as I want. Eff me I guess.

Ahh life in the "real world" when not independently wealthy...       Cobalt, you have said previously on twitch and in here that these textures are some of the hardest you have ever done.   We all see that is due to the level of care you are giving these parts.   We know you have a lot of parts to make and we know you are doing what you can when you can.  We also appreciate the distractions you have posted up....   

Kick back and enjoy the Reps coming in while you take your vaca.  Hope you have fun, come back energized and in exchange we will promise not to burn the thread down due to your extended absence.     

 

BTW..... Is it done yet?  :>_

Ok joking aside, I see transtage is not listed as done in the Git.  Is that an error/oversight or is that because you have even MOAR planned for it?

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

idk about Jso

I'll be mired in my project.

9DR1mDk.png

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On 5/15/2019 at 10:24 PM, Jso said:

I'll be mired in my project.

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Ok I guess I have no patience... I waited a day for deets and nothing followed....   what is your project Jso?  

I am guessing some sort of nav/comm constellation of micro-sats?

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7 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Ok I guess I have no patience... I waited a day for deets and nothing followed....   what is your project Jso?  

I am guessing some sort of nav/comm constellation of micro-sats? 

In the 1960s the US launched a series of 27 sub-synchronous orbit comm satellites under the name Initial Defense Communications Satellite Program. JSO is making the sats and their unique dispenser.

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22 hours ago, TimothyC said:

In the 1960s the US launched a series of 27 sub-synchronous orbit comm satellites under the name Initial Defense Communications Satellite Program. JSO is making the sats and their unique dispenser.

Ok that makes sense... I look foward to deploying this @Jso   Is this going to be part of BDB or a separate moddlet?

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8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Ok that makes sense... I look foward to deploying this @Jso   Is this going to be part of BDB or a separate moddlet?

They'll be part of BDB, replacing the Diamant Asterix (Obelix) if it ever gets deprecated. There's a single part stackable/surface attachable lateral decoupler to build the structure to hold them.  That base at the bottom of the stack is a toggle, you would enable that on the bottom one to get a little clearance off the floor of the fairing base. With only the vertical structure it just fits inside a 0.9375m fairing with the IDCSP probes. With the side mounts it needs an 1.875m fairing. There's 0.6m clearance between the uprights so other small probes can go in there too.

Historically, once Transtage reached orbit it would slowly accelerate with it's RCS and release them at about 20 second intervals. With the slightly different orbital periods they would separate over a month or two into a "random" distribution global coverage. You'll be able to do it that way if you want. I haven't sorted out the balance yet but they're 0.5m, probably 100kg, solar powered, very little battery (the real ones had no battery), and enough antenna power to serve as a relay connection from geosynchronous orbit. It's intended to be useful in the early game playing with no extra ground stations.

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