CobaltWolf

[1.6.X] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.5.2 "Бруно" 8/Feb/2019)

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DriftedCougar said:

(i do sadly know this is unlikely)

With these revamped saturn engines, is there an possibility that there wil also be an M-1?

I don't know if CobaltWolf will make an M1, but in the meantime the Restock Rhino is IMO a very nice M1 model. I wrote a MM patch to convert it to run on hydrolox. You could also modify the patch to make it a +PART copy instead of an @PART modification.

1Al12uYh.png

3eDUCIFh.png

DciIcmdh.png

The M1 had a 4.28m diameter which translates to 2.625m rounded to 2.5m in KSP terms. The Rhino has a 3.75m mount but the engine bell seems to be slightly smaller than 2.5m. Still the scaling is good enough for me not bother to rescale it.

L0u0929h.png

Spoiler

@PART[Size3AdvancedEngine]:NEEDS[ReStock]
{

    //@mass = 9
    
    @TechRequired = heavierRocketry
    @title = Aerojet M1
    @description = a humongous hydrolox lifter engine

      @MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]]
      {
          @maxThrust = 1667.5

          @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
          {
              @name = LqdHydrogen
              @ratio = 1.5
          }

          @PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
          {
              @name = Oxidizer
              @ratio = 0.1    
          }

          !atmosphereCurve {}
      atmosphereCurve
          {
              key = 0 428
              key = 1 310
              key = 3 0.001
          }

      }
}
 

I havent flown enough of these M1 based rockets to be 100% certain about the balance. The mass could potentially be reduced. IIRC, I think I used 33% of real world thrust instead of the the more typical 25% for lifter engines due to the bigger SL vs Vac ISP difference for LH2 engines.

edit: no I used 1/4 thrust because 33% was too much

Edited by Zorg

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3 minutes ago, Zorg said:

[snip]

Was M-1 supposed to be used at sea level or as an upper stage? Or was it supposed to be used somewhat like how the SSME was?

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Just now, hieywiey said:

Was M-1 supposed to be used at sea level or as an upper stage? Or was it supposed to be used somewhat like how the SSME was?

It was considered for both roles from what I've read. Initially proposed as a J2 like 2nd stage sustainer for really big second stages (well more like a cluster of J2s) and also some sea level proposals were kicked about. I'm honestly not too well versed on this. I should go do some reading :)

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From what i remember the M-1 was used in the nova proposals on the upper stages...so i think vacuum, in fact it might be an bit of an vacuum F-1...

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1 minute ago, Zorg said:

It was considered for both roles from what I've read. Initially proposed as a J2 like 2nd stage sustainer for really big second stages (well more like a cluster of J2s) and also some sea level proposals were kicked about. I'm honestly not too well versed on this. I should go do some reading :)

Documentation on it is spotty and contradictory at times, so I really don't know which I should trust. You also have to keep in mind that this is one of those things that changed a lot, like Dynasoar, so there are different 'versions' of it out there.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, hieywiey said:

Documentation on it is spotty and contradictory at times, so I really don't know which I should trust. You also have to keep in mind that this is one of those things that changed a lot, like Dynasoar, so there are different 'versions' of it out there.

True, I tried to make my config work in both roles, a sea level sustainer, as well as a super heavy second stage engine. Most likely dedicated sea level variants would have had a smaller engine bell and lower ISP. But I wasnt looking to configure multiple variants at the time. But I've only flown craft using this 2 or 3 times so I havent made any tweaks since the initial set up.

Ah I found the pictures, I used it previously in a direct ascent Gemini lander mission in a 2.5x GPP career. Air started M1 on a cryogenic LDC core.

k79h1Qqh.png

FFdDOU5h.png

Theres an Atlas II vernier hidden somewhere for roll control.

nQ1cYjNh.png

Edited by Zorg

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I'm having some issues with the latest dev version where some plumes disappear once I leave the atmosphere. I've observed it on the early atlas and agena engines so far, as well as the mercury kick motor. There may well be more I haven't found.

It doesn't seem to be happening on all engines, since a few solids I tested worked fine, and the redstone engine is fine too. Is this a known issue with RealPlume, or something of the sort? I reinstalled RealPlume and the problem persists. I should mention I'm running 1.6 as well.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, GJdude said:

I'm having some issues with the latest dev version where some plumes disappear once I leave the atmosphere. I've observed it on the early atlas and agena engines so far, as well as the mercury kick motor. There may well be more I haven't found.

It doesn't seem to be happening on all engines, since a few solids I tested worked fine, and the redstone engine is fine too. Is this a known issue with RealPlume, or something of the sort? I reinstalled RealPlume and the problem persists. I should mention I'm running 1.6 as well.

Sounds like an issue @Rocketology ran into on stream recently. I don't know what's causing it but I'll keep an eye out.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 4:49 AM, KnedlikMCPE said:

I get “locked” status, meaning i got totally no control. I just found that it’s the same on all rockets.

Also, does anyone know what causes this? I'm blanking on it too.

 

5 hours ago, DriftedCougar said:

(i do sadly know this is unlikely)

With these revamped saturn engines, is there an possibility that there wil also be an M-1?

It's been in the plans as an 'eventual' thing, I'm not planning on doing it right now though. This is really just trying to get the existing Saturn engines updated; the only reason I'm even messing around a little is I want to make sure the J-2X is possible with the way I've UV'd everything. I need to see how hard the J-2T variants will be.

Edited by CobaltWolf

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Another day, another WIP engine... and a stream announcement! I'm going to be trying to do an evening dev stream tonight, starting sometime around 6-6:30 Eastern over on Twitch (2-3 hours from this post, basically)

9PC9EPg.png

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Posted (edited)

screenshot1191.png

screenshot1192.png

A dilemma ensues...

Edited by DeltaDizzy

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How do you go about statting your parts? Since they are not just rescaled versions of real life parts... With engines for instance, you normally copy the real Isp, but the thrust is a new number, potentially just real world thrust times a multiplier? Like real thrust x 1/2.7? And what about mass? 

 

I'm making a mod that reworks batteries, and I want the batteries to work nicely with BDB and JNSQ. And to do that I need to know how you guys determine mass.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nnimrod said:

How do you go about statting your parts? Since they are not just rescaled versions of real life parts... With engines for instance, you normally copy the real Isp, but the thrust is a new number, potentially just real world thrust times a multiplier? Like real thrust x 1/2.7? And what about mass? 

 

I'm making a mod that reworks batteries, and I want the batteries to work nicely with BDB and JNSQ. And to do that I need to know how you guys determine mass.

Engines are 25% IRL thrust for SL engines, 37.5-50% IRL thrust for vacuum engines. Past that, I don't know much. @Jso's balancing is some sort of black magic. :)

 

Dev pre-stream going up in a minute, dev stream starting in the next 15 mins or so! :)

Edited by CobaltWolf

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2 hours ago, Nnimrod said:

~snip~

I'm making a mod that reworks batteries, and I want the batteries to work nicely with BDB and JNSQ. And to do that I need to know how you guys determine mass.

I don't know exactly how Jso balances batteries, but usually they use the same specific energy (Wh/kg or ElectricCharge/kg ) as the stock batteries. So a battery with 200 Ec should weigh 10 kg (0.01 t in ksp units) because the stock Z-100 stores 100 Ec and weighs 5kg :) 

Spoiler

If you want to be very realistic, then use the part volume and choose what would it be made of (lead-acid, lithium-ion, Nickel-hydrogen...) and use the figure below to calculate roughly how much it would weight.

battery-cell-energy-density.jpg

Modern spacecraft use mostly Ni-H (Ni-MH in the figure) instead of Li-ion because lithium batteries don't behave very well in vacuum... they have a tendency to get leaky and explody

 

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2 minutes ago, Marcelo Silveira said:

I don't know exactly how Jso balances batteries, but usually they use the same specific energy (Wh/kg or ElectricCharge/kg ) as the stock batteries. So a battery with 200 Ec should weigh 10 kg (0.01 t in ksp units) because the stock Z-100 stores 100 Ec and weighs 5kg :) 

  Hide contents

If you want to be very realistic, then use the part volume and choose what would it be made of (lead-acid, lithium-ion, Nickel-hydrogen...) and use the figure below to calculate roughly how much it would weight.

battery-cell-energy-density.jpg

Modern spacecraft use mostly Ni-H (Ni-MH in the figure) instead of Li-ion because lithium batteries don't behave very well in vacuum... they have a tendency to get leaky and explody

 

Ok, if BDB doesn't do anything special for battery mass then I'll figure something out. What does BDB normally do for other payload parts mass like parachutes or solar panels?

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16 hours ago, hieywiey said:

Documentation on it is spotty and contradictory at times, so I really don't know which I should trust. You also have to keep in mind that this is one of those things that changed a lot, like Dynasoar, so there are different 'versions' of it out there.

While all of this is true, the actual physical parts made and tested were for a Vacuum rated engine.... a little smaller than the diameter of the S-IC/S-II stages.

 

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Posted (edited)

Alternate Titan IV textures - filament wound case for SRMUs and white texture variant for the second stage!

ybaBwkB.jpg

 

 

EDIT:

2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

While all of this is true, the actual physical parts made and tested were for a Vacuum rated engine.... a little smaller than the diameter of the S-IC/S-II stages.

ಠ_ಠ

Edited by CobaltWolf

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Alternate Titan IV textures - filament wound case for SRMUs and white texture variant for the second stage!

:o That looks amazing!

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8 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Alternate Titan IV textures - filament wound case for SRMUs and white texture variant for the second stage!

(SRMU goodness)

That SRMU color variant reminds me of the black night SRB.....and the black peacekeeper!

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17 hours ago, Nnimrod said:

Ok, if BDB doesn't do anything special for battery mass then I'll figure something out. What does BDB normally do for other payload parts mass like parachutes or solar panels?

We don't consider realism at all with batteries. Just that the probes are capable of performing their mission and the numbers aren't ridiculous. Some of the probes are entirely battery powered.

Supposedly our solar panels are mass = ec/s * 0.0167 and for shielded mass = ec/s * 0.0239. Other than that numbers are just made up to look ok next to stock parts. When possible.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2019 at 5:49 PM, GJdude said:

I'm having some issues with the latest dev version where some plumes disappear once I leave the atmosphere. I've observed it on the early atlas and agena engines so far, as well as the mercury kick motor. There may well be more I haven't found.

It doesn't seem to be happening on all engines, since a few solids I tested worked fine, and the redstone engine is fine too. Is this a known issue with RealPlume, or something of the sort? I reinstalled RealPlume and the problem persists. I should mention I'm running 1.6 as well.

Looks like its an issue with the latest version of Smokescreen, can roll back to v2.8.0 for now which seems to fix it. 

ps. I've opened an issue on the smokescreen github so the devs are aware.

Edited by Zorg

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5 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Looks nice, but why does the "D" version have a gimbal?

Other way around - the C version shouldn't have gimbal. Unfortunately, I don't have texture room to have two different versions of the upper thrust chamber (uh... everything between the aspirator "plate" and the gimbal pivot, basically), and if I got rid of the gimbal hardware there would be ugly black shadows all over it. Fortunately on the Saturn 1 you can't really see it that well anyways...

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Sorry, typo. You're right, it's a "C". You sure you couldn't cram it in somehow? Or at least change the gimbal hardware to fixed supports?

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