[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[Pappystein]

21 hours ago, GoldForest said:

No solids on the rocket. Just liquid fuel.

Well I am using an older DEV version of MechJeb and the only issues I have had is if there is a Solid stage in the middle of liquid stages....  So I would suggest deleting MechJeb and then re-downloading (maybe the latest DEV release instead of the main release?)

6 hours ago, Zorg said:

I don't quite recall if the existing BDB camera experiment is biome specific in low orbit. I think it is but in any case the MOL one definitely needs to be. I suppose the MOL experiment can have 0 transmission value so that it needs to be recovered by crew or better yet processed in the lab.

No it is not (at-least I don't think it is either...)  I stopped carrying Cameras after my first orbital launch for each planet I visit (run out of Science Deffs too quick) 

 

4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

The large recon is definitely possible if someone gives me a patch for it - if I remember, the functionality for those isn't available in DMagicScienceAnimate so it can be natively embedded... I don't remember if it works without the toggleable meshes for the data.

 

Some of the DMagic Orbital Science defs are...  Fun.  With or without DMagic Orbital Science installed.  And then Even some of those are FUN due to how they were structured.   I never really reached out to DMagic when I made the Titan I Impact Science probe but I spent close to 2 weeks failing one patch after the next to actually have the Impact Seismology test work with the ProbeCore....   Of course some of that time was spent re-flying missions because the Probe core blew up when it shouldn't have (darn space Kraken)

 

 

5 hours ago, hieywiey said:

Could the KH-11 have SCANSat (maybe the SAR module?) and DMagic Orbital Science (The large recon part) integration.

Err missed this one.   I don't know if Science experiments can be "Upgraded" like other parts.  But I would say this would start out as a Camera with a Low and High Altitude "Flying over" Biome reference...  Then when ScanSat Multi-Spectral scan becomes Available it unlocks on the station... Then Later yet it unlocks a Tasier or CatEye module....   But IDK.   BDB is feeling more and more cramped in the stock tech tree....   AKA The Stock Tech Tree is too small

 

To be clear... With the advent of Digital Cameras we have unlocked a non-replacement way to use a Camera for more than one use... Type of light... EM spectrum (at some point Light is after all PART of the Radio spectrum....)  Mind you historically KH-10 was a mostly analog beast with possibly FET/JFET Transistors replacing Vacuum tubes in a non IC Computer.  Of-course Digital Cameras really were not prevelant/Available until the 1990s... and we are talking about a space Station from before 1970.

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Pappystein

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Well I am using an older DEV version of MechJeb and the only issues I have had is if there is a Solid stage in the middle of liquid stages....  So I would suggest deleting MechJeb and then re-downloading (maybe the latest DEV release instead of the main release?)

IT's actually not Mechjeb that's messing up. It shows the DV fine, it's the stock DV system in the staging windows that doesn't read the DV, and the stock maneuver nodes too show an unrealistic number. 

[DylanSemrau]

[birdog357]

I'd like to make a request for the eventual Saturn rebuild. Quarter and half size S-II tanks. I just read somewhere that there was a plan to upgrade the Saturn V with a full diameter third stage at some point and the short tanks would be awesome for that.

[Pappystein]

13 minutes ago, birdog357 said:

I'd like to make a request for the eventual Saturn rebuild. Quarter and half size S-II tanks. I just read somewhere that there was a plan to upgrade the Saturn V with a full diameter third stage at some point and the short tanks would be awesome for that.

Birddog,   I think Saturn is THE rocket with more proposals than pounds of Rocket built....  

The only Full Diameter 3rd Stage I know of is one of the Early NERVA proposals. 

Now that being said I have documentation for .....  Approximately 30 different Variants for the Saturn C-5 Rocket (Both before and after it was renamed Saturn V)  Most of the variants are just further variants of other Saturn Vs....   A change as simple as a change of Insulation can denote a new version so Don't freek out asking for actual hardware.   I just hope we end up with a Saturn V Diameter engine mount for a 3x F-1 load... and a 4.25m (or whatever S-IVB diameter is now) 2x F-1 Engine mount...   Need 2X Pyrios + 2x AJ-260 for my Saturn MLV purposes....

I have already Built (via Re-scaling the existing hardware) the bulk of the Saturn MLV Tankage as well as alternative engines.   They are in the Pafftek Folder in BDB_Extras.   While they are not as pretty as the original (some texture distortions etc due to stretch or shrinkage) here is a list of the parts already available for your ALTERNATE Saturn V.

S-IC alternatives:

MLV-Flat Bulkhead tank (Shorter tank to allow MS-IIA +MS-IVB/C to fit in existing Saturn Launch faclities.

MLV Stretched Tank (The longer of the two stretches proposed for S-IC.)  

MLV Stretched tank with Flat Bulkhead.    Not a proposed tank in my reaserch but why not combine tank 1 and 2 above?!  

 

S-II Alternatives:

MLV-IIA   The primary proposed Stretch to the S-II stage.All but one stretch proposal for the MLV-IIA was this length (in my library at-least.)

        -CobaltWolf has already implemented a 7 Engine MS-II engine mount... true Bespoke part instead of less than ideal stretches I made

 

S-IVB Alternatives:

The S-IVB would have been re-engineered for an almost 0 mass gain but improved insulation and strength.  No in game need for new parts.

 

Also included are some parts for the earlier INT program.   Specifically longer Saturn I S-I tank, HG-3s using the new J-2 Engine models as well as the J-2T-400k which is actually a hybrid between the J-2S and the HG-3 with a torridial Aerospike.   Beyond those parts Cobaltwolf has already provided the E-1... 

On a Final note.  There is another stage that is currently build-able.  But (please don't groan over this Cobaltwolf!) it was canceled well before Saturn C-1 became Saturn I.   AKA prior to the Silverstein committee.  The S-III stage was to be used between either the Stretched S-I stage or the twin F-1 powered S-I stage  and the S-IV Stage.   The S-III can be made with the existing Eyes Turned Skyward parts for the S-IVC (the twin J-2 engine mount and the Auxiliary S-IVC tank)  Please note these rockets were the original proposals for the Saturn C-2 and Saturn C-3.

While the S-III was canceled early on, I have flown the above version many times on the Stretched, E-1 powered S-I stage.   I have even managed to launch the rocket with the following stages (S-I-INT12, S-III, S-IVA stage and S-V stage (Centaur C or Centaur E both of which were never built and likely not actually designed.))

 

 

[birdog357]

Plan is probably too strong of a word. More like idea or concept.

[Friznit]

9 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Birddog,   I think Saturn is THE rocket with more proposals than pounds of Rocket built....  

https://github.com/friznit/Unofficial-BDB-Wiki/wiki/Saturn-MLV

See also Saturn II and C series on there.  It doesn't cover every single proposal ever but at least gives a flavour for some of the more significant variations.

[Zorg]

My slow paced science game continues to trundle along. After the exploration program was greatly disrupted by a station building phase, interplanetary exploration resumes.

Titan III-E with a 3.125m fairing

Why is such a thing needed? Why for a nuclear centaur of course. The Kerbal Atomics Eel with the extended Centaur T tanks burns for 16 minutes. For this helios mission, with a bit of judgement managed to get a decent ejection from a single burn from launch. The second stage got the Centaur to escape velocity and the long 16 minute burn took the Helios into a low solar periapsis. A regular centaur D1T and star 37 is capable of this mission but I wanted to introduce the nuke at this stage.

The real helios jettisoned the Star after burnout but it looks kinda cool attached.

[CobaltWolf]

17 hours ago, DylanSemrau said:

~snip~

30 minutes ago, Zorg said:

My slow paced science game continues to trundle along. After the exploration program was greatly disrupted by a station building phase, interplanetary exploration resumes.

Titan III-E with a 3.125m fairing

Why is such a thing needed? Why for a nuclear centaur of course. The Kerbal Atomics Eel with the extended Centaur T tanks burns for 16 minutes. For this helios mission, with a bit of judgement managed to get a decent ejection from a single burn from launch. The second stage got the Centaur to escape velocity and the long 16 minute burn took the Helios into a low solar periapsis. A regular centaur D1T and star 37 is capable of this mission but I wanted to introduce the nuke at this stage.

The real helios jettisoned the Star after burnout but it looks kinda cool attached.

Those both look awesome!

 

17 hours ago, birdog357 said:

I'd like to make a request for the eventual Saturn rebuild. Quarter and half size S-II tanks. I just read somewhere that there was a plan to upgrade the Saturn V with a full diameter third stage at some point and the short tanks would be awesome for that.

16 hours ago, Pappystein said:

~snip~

16 hours ago, birdog357 said:

Plan is probably too strong of a word. More like idea or concept.

6 hours ago, Friznit said:

https://github.com/friznit/Unofficial-BDB-Wiki/wiki/Saturn-MLV

See also Saturn II and C series on there.  It doesn't cover every single proposal ever but at least gives a flavour for some of the more significant variations.

Saturn revamp is a very very far "eventually" - there's basically no way I can do it before KSP2 comes out, so it will probably be made from scratch for KSP2. Apollo and the LEM... probably the same. I can't really speak to it yet (mostly because I haven't looked into things yet), but rest assured that Saturn will get the same above-and-beyond treatment that Titan has been getting.

Incidentally, there was a 10m S-IVB design I can think of off the top of my head: The Comet Saturn design for First Lunar Outpost.

 

Small update, peak at some of the remaining Gemini parts: Redone solar wing, and some rendezvous radar dishes that will probably have a couple variants (deployable, fixed, etc)
Also note the 45 degree version of the Gemini Ferry RCS

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by CobaltWolf

[Oreak]

[CobaltWolf]

5 minutes ago, Oreak said:

~snip~

OH MY GOD I LOVE IT

[Pappystein]

14 minutes ago, Oreak said:

Wheres the REP button when someone really needs it?!?!?!

Nice bit of Art there @Oreak

[Deltac]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

remaining [for this update] Gemini parts

Fixed that for you.

[Pappystein]

7 hours ago, Friznit said:

https://github.com/friznit/Unofficial-BDB-Wiki/wiki/Saturn-MLV

See also Saturn II and C series on there.  It doesn't cover every single proposal ever but at least gives a flavour for some of the more significant variations.

Friznit,  One thing I noticed on the MLV page.  No Saturn V(S)4 with the AJ-260s and Aux Fuel ("drop?") tanks for the MS-1C.

Build the Tallest MLV Saturn V (MS-1C maximum Stretch, MS-IIA, S-IVC [Sure it is from ETS but it fits... ish!] and Put 4x of the long AJ-260s in line with the F-1s on the MS-1C.  Then take 4 of the Auxiliary S-IVC tanks and put them on top of the AJ-260s.  Pass fuel line to MS-1C tank.   Put nosecone on AJ-260s.   Ignite all the AJ-260s and F-1s (no F-1As on this rocket!) on launch pad.  The Aux Tanks will JUST ABOUT be empty when you jettison the AJ-260 and their attendant aux fuel tank.)

 

TBC the Aux Tanks on top of the AJ-260s must be the first to have fuel drawn from and they are full of LF/O not Hydrolox... so have to flip the switch as default is Hydrolox.

 

I can carry a Full Apollo lander stack to Jool with this If I time my launch correctly  Durn limited functionality to the boil-off feature!

 

20 hours ago, GoldForest said:

IT's actually not Mechjeb that's messing up. It shows the DV fine, it's the stock DV system in the staging windows that doesn't read the DV, and the stock maneuver nodes too show an unrealistic number. 

I am not getting Identical Delta V numbers but they are similar enough for me to declare that the difference is rounding errors...

 

Scan your install with Steam?

IDK what to say

Edited September 25, 2019 by Pappystein
Clarified Aux tanks.

[Friznit]

2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Friznit,  One thing I noticed on the MLV page.  No Saturn V(S)4 with the AJ-260s and Aux Fuel ("drop?") tanks for the MS-1C.

Do you have a reference pic / diagram / doc for that somewhere I can refer to?

[DylanSemrau]

2 hours ago, Oreak said:

oh my god I need this on my wall

[Pappystein]

1 hour ago, Friznit said:

Do you have a reference pic / diagram / doc for that somewhere I can refer to?

I am building it in Sandbox as soon as I can get KSP up and running

Thought I would share a photo or 2.

IRL the only references I have that spell it out clearly is the "Wonderfully self contradicting" Astronautix....   Beyond that I see mention of the Quad AJ-260s needing a lengthening so they can match up the MS-IC's Thrust structure.   This to NOT have to make an entirely new S-IC alternative tankage + Engine plate... aka a completely new first stage.

I will post the in game shot after I go take care of a Wasp nest (stupid wasps got in my house through the FRAME of a window today!)

 

[Pappystein]

For followup.  The Description of the MS-IC stage to support the quad AJ-260s

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnms-ic260.html

and one of the many full up configurations (this is what I consider the BASIC configuration.

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv4-260.html

A more "Fun" version using the S-ID first stage so 0+ Stage and A Half For First stage grouping...

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv-d.html

 

Starting at the Top.  The Core stack

• Saturn IU (aka the Guidance and Control Unit or GCU)
• Saturn S-IVB tank
• Saturn S-IVC tank
• Saturn S-IVB Engine mount + 4x Saturn APS RCS systems + 4 Saturn S-IV speration motors
• J-2T-400K (extras folder)
• S-II to S-IVB interstage
• MS-IIA-1 tank
• 5x S-II Engine plate with 5x J-2T-250K Engines (BDB
• S-II to S-I Interstage with 4x S-II Seperation motors attached TO THE INTERSTAGE <- this is the correct location for those!
• 5.625m Stack Decoupler
• MS-IC-25 Extended lenght tank
• S-IC engine mount with 5x F-1 Engines (no F-1As here)

The AJ-260s are the FULL length versions with the following parts (most are Stock and from the Stock Expansions....   Need a 3.125 or 3.75m Conical nose TANK for BDB at some juncture (Tweakscale can make it better but the little nose cones in Stock or BDB look weird when scaled up.

I have the following parts for the AJ-260 Asparagus:

• Stock FLA-150 Tweakscaled to 1.875
• Stock FLA-151S Tweakscaled to 2.85m
• Stock FLA-215 Tweakscaled to 3.75
• BDB S-IVC Tank
• Fuel Conduit run to MS-IC-25 tank
• AJ-260X Radial SRB.

Obviously all the fuel tanks on the AJ-260s are set to Liquid Fuel + Oxidizer and not Hydrolox.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Pappystein

[Mudwig]

2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

*snip*

 

I was trying to use the MS-IIA as a basis for, something... 

...and I noticed that the MS-IIA tank has a propellant mass fraction much lower than the standard S-II. This means that it's far better to just use the S-II tank than to ever use the MS-IIA one. I doubt this is the intended balance. I know MS-IIA was to be reinforced, but probably not so much as to fully offset the additional propellant's usefulness.

S-II: Propellant mass = 71995kg Dry mass = 11875kg

MS-IIA: Propellant mass = 75415 ( ~104% of standard ) Dry mass = 18160kg ( ~153% of standard )

I'm thinking it may need a bit of a balance pass.

[KerbalKore]

1 hour ago, Mudwig said:

I was trying to use the MS-IIA as a basis for, something... 

[GoldForest]

7 hours ago, Mudwig said:

I was trying to use the MS-IIA as a basis for, something... 

 

5 hours ago, KerbalKore said:

Direct Jupiter III, slightly modified. Looks good. And yes, it was a REAL proposal for a super heavy launch vehicle.

[Mudwig]

3 hours ago, GoldForest said:

 

Direct Jupiter III, slightly modified. Looks good. And yes, it was a REAL proposal for a super heavy launch vehicle.

It's not exactly meant to be Jupiter III. It's inspired by it, obviously, but the core set-up is much different. It's a standard S-II upper stage ( with 4x APUs for attitude control ) and a S-II based core stage with 7x SSMEs. I wanted to use the MS-IIA tank for the core, but it's mass ratio is weird, so I had to use the normal one.

[CobaltWolf]

17 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Wheres the REP button when someone really needs it?!?!?!

Nice bit of Art there @Oreak

15 hours ago, DylanSemrau said:

oh my god I need this on my wall

Seriously though!!!

 

17 hours ago, Deltac said:

"remaining [for this update] Gemini parts"

Fixed that for you.

Ah, indeed. We're not nearly done with Gemini yet - but more stuff is going to have to wait for Saturn revamp since a lot of the lunar Gemini stuff is explicitly related to the diameter of the S-IVB.

 

17 hours ago, Pappystein said:

~snip~

15 hours ago, Friznit said:

Do you have a reference pic / diagram / doc for that somewhere I can refer to?

13 hours ago, Pappystein said:

For followup.  The Description of the MS-IC stage to support the quad AJ-260s

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnms-ic260.html

and one of the many full up configurations (this is what I consider the BASIC configuration.

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv4-260.html

A more "Fun" version using the S-ID first stage so 0+ Stage and A Half For First stage grouping...

http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv-d.html

~snip~

I don't think I've ever seen a description of it outside of Astronautix, yeah. But... AJ-260s w/ "drop" tanks is such a badass thing to do that it definitely has to be given consideration for the eventual Saturn rework.

By the way @Pappystein, you mentioned an S-1C with a "flat" bulkhead. Wouldn't it be a common bulkhead instead..? I actually have a model from... I think an old NasaSpaceflight thread, where someone figured out what a common bulkhead S-IC would look like. See the second from right in this picture:

 

10 hours ago, Mudwig said:

I was trying to use the MS-IIA as a basis for, something...

...and I noticed that the MS-IIA tank has a propellant mass fraction much lower than the standard S-II. This means that it's far better to just use the S-II tank than to ever use the MS-IIA one. I doubt this is the intended balance. I know MS-IIA was to be reinforced, but probably not so much as to fully offset the additional propellant's usefulness.

S-II: Propellant mass = 71995kg Dry mass = 11875kg

MS-IIA: Propellant mass = 75415 ( ~104% of standard ) Dry mass = 18160kg ( ~153% of standard )

I'm thinking it may need a bit of a balance pass.

Yeah, that doesn't sound right. The S-II stage bordered on being pressure stabilized because the mass had to keep being reduced. It basically wound up being forced to pick up the slack from any under performance elsewhere in the stack as the design progressed. On a technical level it's probably more impressive than the S-IC or the S-IVB.

Unrelated but fun fact that I just remembered (I hope correctly) there were actually 3 completely different insulation schemes used on the Saturn V - the S-II and S-IVB used completely different schemes, and one of them (I want to say... the S-IVB?) had its insulation scheme completely changed after the uncrewed flights. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I tried double checking this but couldn't find a good reference)

 

3 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Direct Jupiter III, slightly modified. Looks good. And yes, it was a REAL proposal for a super heavy launch vehicle.

Kiiiind of a Jupiter III.... I can't help but notice the additional SRMUs jammed in there

[Mudwig]

23 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

*snip*

Kiiiind of a Jupiter III.... I can't help but notice the additional SRMUs jammed in there

Liftoff TWR was barely more than 1:1 without them. The test payload is nearly 200t of ore tanks, so it needs all the help it can get.

[GoldForest]

36 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Kiiiind of a Jupiter III.... I can't help but notice the additional SRMUs jammed in there

 

8 minutes ago, Mudwig said:

Liftoff TWR was barely more than 1:1 without them. The test payload is nearly 200t of ore tanks, so it needs all the help it can get.

Well until Cobalt decides to grace us with RS-68s and J-2Xs, as well as STS parts, we won't be able to make a BDB official Jupiter III. 

It's funny. I always saw the Jupiter III as a Saturn V/STS hybrid. 

But there's a problem with the Jupiter III. The same problem why Ares V abandoned RS-68 engines for use. The engines produce too much heat to be that close to each other.