[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[Friznit]

4 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

@Zorg @CobaltWolf So, recently I've been playing a lot with BDB/JNSQ/Kerbalism and I found myself writing MM patches to update Kerbalism support for BDB parts (which you can find here - still a work in progress but a lot is already done). Kerbalism originally comes with a science compatibility patch for BDB but it is now very out of date. I've added special Kerbalism support for GATV, Keyhole, SIGINT, and many of the Probe Expansion science experiments, and am currently working on HDD data/sample storage upgrades for command modules.

I was originally considering whether to contribute it to Kerbalism, but I got no reaction from that side yet, plus they prefer not to add any new experiments, so for now I can only either leave it in my own repo or propose a PR to BDB later on. But this update comes with many patches, some are somewhat complex as they depend on understanding what Kerbalism is doing. It could be hard to maintain, plus I obviously do not offer any support... I am updating it for now but may stop at any time. So I'm leaning towards leaving it separate and publishing it as part of that repo (which contains some of my other patches as well, the Kerbalism update just happens to be the lion's share) or even splitting it off into a separate mod. But please let me know your thoughts on this. 

And regardless of where this ends up ultimately, I am also interested in hearing from anyone about the experiments' balance in this patch, as I'm not that great at balancing stuff (mostly related to experiment length and data size). 

Great to see someone tackling this - it's much needed.  For info there's a slightly more up to date config in @Bellabong fork of Kerbalism.  Might help for you to compare notes and balancing https://github.com/Bellabong/Kerbalism/blob/master/GameData/KerbalismConfig/Support/Bluedog.cfg  

I think you're right in that these configs are best kept on the Kerbalism side (or standalone if they don't want them).   The BDB team relies on the complex mods to maintain compatibility patches for BDB rather than the other way round, as it's simply not feasible to maintain them all at the BDB end.

I'm running a KRSS-BDB-Kerbalism career game so would be happy to help stress test your config when it's in a playable state.

[mozartbeatle]

49 minutes ago, Zorg said:

Yeah I meant more that mesh wouldnt necessarily fit together nicely with the S4B mount.

Oh, I didn't mean just copy-paste the skylab mesh. I was just wondering about how likely it would be to get an option like that fresh-made for the engine mount, to better reflect how they looked in action in real life. Sorta like the insulated F-1 option.

Is something like that a possibility?

[Zorg]

8 minutes ago, mozartbeatle said:

Oh, I didn't mean just copy-paste the skylab mesh. I was just wondering about how likely it would be to get an option like that fresh-made for the engine mount, to better reflect how they looked in action in real life. Sorta like the insulated F-1 option.

Is something like that a possibility?

Oh @CobaltWolf would need to answer that but given that he didnt include it to begin with I doubt it. The cost in texture space for something like this is much higher than it was for the F1 insulation.

[Gordon Dry]

On 10/25/2021 at 3:22 AM, OrdinaryKerman said:

Probably because the parachute canopy mesh isn't named canopy so the game doesn't know to use the undeployed size in size calculations

group195 ?

 

Nope - that did not help. Also not with https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/issues/1136#issuecomment-965878421

Edited November 11, 2021 by Gordon Dry

[pTrevTrevs]

9 hours ago, Grimmas said:

@Zorg @CobaltWolf So, recently I've been playing a lot with BDB/JNSQ/Kerbalism and I found myself writing MM patches to update Kerbalism support for BDB parts (which you can find here - still a work in progress but a lot is already done). Kerbalism originally comes with a science compatibility patch for BDB but it is now very out of date. I've added special Kerbalism support for GATV, Keyhole, SIGINT, and many of the Probe Expansion science experiments, and am currently working on HDD data/sample storage upgrades for command modules.

I was originally considering whether to contribute it to Kerbalism, but I got no reaction from that side yet, plus they prefer not to add any new experiments, so for now I can only either leave it in my own repo or propose a PR to BDB later on. But this update comes with many patches, some are somewhat complex as they depend on understanding what Kerbalism is doing. It could be hard to maintain, plus I obviously do not offer any support... I am updating it for now but may stop at any time. So I'm leaning towards leaving it separate and publishing it as part of that repo (which contains some of my other patches as well, the Kerbalism update just happens to be the lion's share) or even splitting it off into a separate mod. But please let me know your thoughts on this. 

And regardless of where this ends up ultimately, I am also interested in hearing from anyone about the experiments' balance in this patch, as I'm not that great at balancing stuff (mostly related to experiment length and data size). 

One of the biggest things that sticks out to me regarding the BDB/Kerbalism interface is that Kerbalism breaks some of the animations on BDB experiment; specifically the materials bay experiments for the GATV and LEM, the spectrometer for the Gemini adapter section, as well as the gravity scanner and mass spectrometer for OGO. I run Kerbalism in my current KSRSS game, so I'll keep an eye out for any other issues.

Edited November 11, 2021 by pTrevTrevs

[Clamp-o-Tron]

Who'd like a bit of alternate-alternate history?

Following Apollo 18 and Skylab, there are no Saturn V boosters left in existence- ruling out possibilities for a  Skylab II. So Space Station Odyssey is conceived, using small modules serviced by evolved Apollo ferries and the DoD-funded Saturn 1C.

Spoiler

 

Next up: Pioneer was great. But what if it could be better?

 

[DaveyJ576]

So I have been playing around with the new Saturn parts and the new details are amazing. In particular, the S-II engine mount is a tremendous improvement over the previous version. However, a question came up. Was the engine heat shield flown on every flight, or was it removed from later vehicles? Curiously, it seems that the S-II stages that are on display do not have the heatshield installed. The photographic record seems to be a bit spotty in this regard. Not even the experts on Nasaspaceflight.com can seem to come to a consensus. Can someone point to an official source that will answer the question?
 

Thanks!

[derega16]

 

Apollo Saturn C-2, how it orignally supposed to be launch. S-II load only 70% to represent lack of common bulkhead.

 

 

Apollo Saturn C-3

Edited November 11, 2021 by derega16

[DaveyJ576]

37 minutes ago, derega16 said:

 

Apollo Saturn C-2, how it orignally supposed to be launch. S-II load only 70% to represent lack of common bulkhead.

 

 

Apollo Saturn C-3

How was their performance? 

[CobaltWolf]

Saturn INT-05A

[derega16]

8 minutes ago, DaveyJ576 said:

How was their performance? 

Poor lift off TWR (1.10) but otherwise OK, but performance gain from C-3 over C-2 is not quite significant, should be much better with 3 F-1. 2 F-1 can't lift off unless fuel set to 70% probably due to mass fraction of NFLV tank.

[Galileo chiu]

Do you think the Aerobees are ugly? if you don't would you add them?

[derega16]

@Zorg@CobaltWolf After made C-3 I have a small request, can you add S-IV to 5m interstage? just expand the lower end of the part into that diameter. That white conical skirt part, I think as it's just pure white texture it might be plausible to be stretch without any problems.

Edited November 11, 2021 by derega16

[DaveyJ576]

4 minutes ago, derega16 said:

Poor lift off TWR (1.10) but otherwise OK, but performance gain from C-3 over C-2 is not quite significant, should be much better with 3 F-1. 2 F-1 can't lift off unless fuel set to 70% probably due to mass fraction of NFLV tank.

Yeah, I messed around with these a little in the pre-revamp versions and was not impressed. It seems as if the S-II added so much weight that the first stage couldn’t handle it. I’ve wondered if it was an issue of using the scaled down BDB S-II. I would have to believe that Von Braun and his team wouldn’t have designed a rocket with such anemic performance. Most likely the IRL S-II of these rockets would have been much lighter.

[alberro+]

[Grimmas]

11 hours ago, Friznit said:

Great to see someone tackling this - it's much needed.  For info there's a slightly more up to date config in @Bellabong fork of Kerbalism.  Might help for you to compare notes and balancing https://github.com/Bellabong/Kerbalism/blob/master/GameData/KerbalismConfig/Support/Bluedog.cfg  

I think you're right in that these configs are best kept on the Kerbalism side (or standalone if they don't want them).   The BDB team relies on the complex mods to maintain compatibility patches for BDB rather than the other way round, as it's simply not feasible to maintain them all at the BDB end.

I'm running a KRSS-BDB-Kerbalism career game so would be happy to help stress test your config when it's in a playable state.

Thanks for the tip, I'll definitely take a look at that! (Edit: It does seem fairly complete at first glance, can't tell for sure without playing it though. I see some of those experiments are even crazier than mine, running ten years plus  Also a great idea that Bellabong had was to add radiation emitters for the RTGs, I didn't even consider this so far but I'll definitely have to look into doing something similar as well once I unlock some. If I had known about that patch beforehand I might not have gone to the trouble of writing my own, but that ship has now sailed  ).

My patches are in a playable state - I am playing with them enabled - they are just not entirely complete as I keep adding things as I progress through the tech tree. They should be more or less complete for the science stuff though, turning Keyhole, GATV, OFO, OSO, OAO, Nimbus, Hexagon, MOL, and most of the Probe Expansion parts into Kerbalism experiments (HDD upgrades aren't finished - some work, some do not, some are simply not added yet). I'll see about packaging everything and perhaps making a release post this weekend.

It doesn't work 1:1 as in BDB because I haven't found a mechanic in Kerbalism to limit the total returns to merely a part of the total science value, something that's common with the early camera experiments in BDB, and in some parts I took some creative liberties (for instance I buffed SIGINT (mapping, surveillance) returns but turned them into ultra-long experiments that can only be done on the homeworld's biomes).

3 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

One of the biggest things that sticks out to me regarding the BDB/Kerbalism interface is that Kerbalism breaks some of the animations on BDB experiment; specifically the materials bay experiments for the GATV and LEM, the spectrometer for the Gemini adapter section, as well as the gravity scanner and mass spectrometer for OGO. I run Kerbalism in my current KSRSS game, so I'll keep an eye out for any other issues.

Thanks for the heads up, I actually had a few animations already fixed and it helps to know what others need fixing. I've now fixed the ones you mention above. The only part that I couldn't get to animate so far is the N-00K nuclear package from GATV. If you see any others please let me know.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Grimmas

[GoldForest]

2 hours ago, derega16 said:

 

Apollo Saturn C-2, how it orignally supposed to be launch. S-II load only 70% to represent lack of common bulkhead

 

Apollo Saturn C-3

You're missing the fourth stage, therefore not Saturn C-2 

Edited November 11, 2021 by GoldForest

[Clamp-o-Tron]

Pioneer's great, but it could be better.

(Inspired- kind of- by the Mariner Mk. II proposal in which a common probe bus would be used for all planetary missions)

PIONEER 12- a Jool orbiter with many moon flybys

Spoiler

Launch on a pretty standard Titan 3E

I had a lot of fun bouncing around with gravity assists- with the 2.3 km/s I had after elliptical Jool orbit insertion I was able to visit all five moons at least twice, and end up in a polar mapping orbit of Jool for the end of the mission.

PIONEER 13/14- Tandem Mars orbilanders

Spoiler

The Titan-3BAS2 is my favorite unflown Titan derivative (certainly top 5 proposed rockets)

For reference, it's just a Titan 3 core with Centaur-D and 4 Algol 2s.

Unfortunately, an intern... installed the pressure sensor upside-down.

They will not give comments until their attorney becomes available.

Let's hope they didn't install that sensor for the other lander...

They better have a good lawyer.

PIONEER 15- Asteroid rendezvous

Spoiler

Same Titan 3BAS2 config as before

 

More of these coming soon- the biggest challenge holding me up is getting a compact aeroshell kitbashed up.

[Kakub]

Anybody know why i cant make fairing on skylab adapter module ?

[Jcking]

8 hours ago, GoldForest said:

You're missing the fourth stage, therefore not Saturn C-2 

The S-V stage was an optional fourth stage, and the C-2 of early to mid 1961 (at least that’s when I know for sure that iteration of the design was around) was depicted without it for missions like apollo circumlunar missions (for Apollo circumlunar missions, the S-IV is also capable of restart interestingly enough)

Edited November 11, 2021 by Jcking

[CobaltWolf]

4 hours ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

Titan 3BAS2

Ah yes, a fellow man of culture.

 

[Starhelperdude]

it was mental torture to hear about AJ-260 is coming but you have to go to school, but since I'm at my pc now I can build INT-5 and Saturn-5-D

[SpaceFace545]

11 hours ago, alberro+ said:

Nice Jarvisy Saturn thing?!?

[Pappystein]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:02 PM, pTrevTrevs said:

Not sure if this is a joke or a genuine request at this point.

it is almost becoming a bad meme, even when un-intentional.

===========================================================

Unrelated:  Want to either A) thank the Dev Team for Fixing CADS... or B) thank Github for allowing me to download a version that works.    I am back to building my Skylab Derived ISS.

 

 

[GoldForest]

3 hours ago, Jcking said:

The S-V stage was an optional fourth stage, and the C-2 of early to mid 1961 (at least that’s when I know for sure that iteration of the design was around) was depicted without it for missions like apollo circumlunar missions (for Apollo circumlunar missions, the S-IV is also capable of restart interestingly enough)

Ah, I haven't seen it was optional in any of the info I found.