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[1.8.1-1.12] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.8.1 "Мороз" 11/Jul/2021)


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So decided, after reading a couple NTRS articles today...   A new Historical document.  The Saturn Stages that were canceled.

 

It is not a complete list.   And the data is subjective at best.  But there are interesting things.  And for once... PICTURES :D

Spoiler

Saturn  The stages that were not meant to be:

 

This incomplete chronological discussion of stages meant for the Saturn Rocket that were either, never designed, never built, or canceled as foolish ideas but someone still wrote them down!

 

This will not be a complete list as there are a LOT of stages, we just don’t have a lot of information on, and some “stages” are hypothetical ones that people, not associated with the Saturn Program arm chaired into it because they had media connections…. Lookin at you NOVA!

This document will be broken down into Rocket families.

·         The Saturn C series, including Saturn I and Saturn V

·         Saturn A/B series.   Not a lot of engineering was done here

·         Oddballs and un-filed stages

 

Saturn C series  C-1 and C-2 stages:

While the Saturn C-1 evolved into the Saturn I and Saturn IB rocket stages… there are several components that were designed but not built.  Prior to late June 1961 the Saturn C-2 was also being designed.   It’s cancelation is the result of focusing Saturn on the moon.

Original S-IV stage.   The Original S-IV was a 4 engine LR-119 powered (the is RL10A-3 for those of you who don’t speak US Air Force designations) small diameter stage.   It’s top diameter would have been 3.05m to match with the S-V stage (more to come on that in a bit) and it’s main tank diameter would have been 4.7m or 185”.   To meet the S-I stage a combined conic structure on the S-I stage would conjoin with a flared skirt structure with conic shaped blowout panels.

Here is a picture of the Mockup:

OC9K8o1.png

Description of the changes:   4, instead of 6 engines, a subtle taper from the cylindrical to the conic tank, almost an ogive curve instead of straight-sided, and the conic instead of cylindrical blow out panels on the aft skirt.   Due to fears in the delay of the LR-119, the enlarged S-IV was ordered, and built… and this is one of several “early” mass adds to the Saturn I rocket.

Photo from NTRS document 19650020284

Saturn S-V (Centaur) Stage:   Much has been written about this… and much has been obscured.  Before the Centaur's initial launch, and its failure, the Centaur C series was meant for the Saturn Rocket.   The Centaur was designed to put a large payload into deep space orbit.   Remember, this was before we had even figured out how to calculate planetary slingshot maneuvers, or at least test their theory.   The Saturn Rocket was meant to launch a satellite on a direct flight trajectory to any planet in our solar system.   No slingshots, no reserves, no nothing.   Knowing that space was cold, boiloff was mostly not considered…  with tragic results.    In the end, The Centaur C series would be co-opted by the Centaur test program and used on Atlas rockets to test design features for now “full production” Centaur D series.   In 1959-1961 however it, the Centaur C was labeled as the S-V stage in many Marshal SFC documents.     In terms of structure and insulation, the Centaur C would have been closer to the Centaur D.1T of the 1970s.   It would not have had the jettisonable insulation like the D and D.1A.   It wouldn’t need it being carried under a fairing it was believed.    However, when the S-I rocket flew, the S-IV stage, be it dummy or real, had a top diameter of ~3.05m precluding a fairing to cover the body of a S-V centaur stage.    Latter the Centaur E would be programmed to launch from the Saturn Rockets.   Centaur E, is physically identical to the D.1T and only differs in fitments and avionics to be compatible with the Saturn Rocket.   It should be noted, that while many documents written post 1961 cite the Saturn S-V stage, in May of 1961 MSFC received a contract re-write to the effect of loosing S-V compatibility to the S-I stage to affect structural revisions to the S-I stage for future upgradability.   In short the S-V would not fly on a Saturn I after the initial Blk I testing (and it only flew as a mass simulator at that!)

Saturn S-V Big Centaur:   There are 3 documents in both the USAF archives as well as the NASA NTRS servers that mention a Big Centaur for the Saturn V.   This would have been a stretch of the Centaur E above with further uprated engines.   All references to this are vague and should be considered less as a fact but more as a “hey can we do” this idea.  

Saturn S-V Dynasoar.   The Saturn C-1 design, for several months, was the chosen launcher for the USAF’s Dynasoar program, and several features that were to fly on the Saturn I rocket were the result of this.   The Dynasoar would have had a structural, communication and avionics module to attach it to the top of a S-V Centaur (given the time frame Centaur C.)   The “SCA” would replace the centaur avionics and provide USAF specific ground control features.    Other features built into the Saturn C-1 design that actually flew on the Saturn I were giant fins.  The Saturn Rocket did not need these fins to fly, rather they were needed to counteract the wing surface of a Dynasoar and to save time the stage was not re-engineered to fly without them.   With Dynasoar these fins were to have had hydraulic actuated control surfaces.   In the end the fins on the rocket were simplified versions, without any sort of control actuation or movable surfaces.   With the Advent of the more advanced Saturn IB or Saturn C-1Blk2 the fins, still retained shed even more mass.  

Saturn I S-IVB 220” Diameter.    Initially ordered as a simple re-engine of the S-IV stage, the S-IVB would have had a tank stretch to increase the fuel.  Switching to the core stage 260” diameter allowed a height reduction of almost 15 feet and increased strength without added mass.  

 

Saturn C-2 S-III stage:

Early on it was hoped the Saturn C-2 would be ordered about a year and a half behind the C-1 to allow for the development of the S-III stage and it’s J-2 engine.     The S-III stage, would be used on the C-2, C-3 and for one month, the C-4 rockets.   The S-III stage can best be described as a 2/3rds height S-IVB with 2 J-2 engines.   2x the thrust 2/3rds the fuel capacity.   This is a dramatic over-simplification in terms of accuracy.   While no contract was ever let for this stage, we can surmise that McDonnell was the likely company to produce it.   We do know that about this time McDonnell was contracting with Douglas for “Technical considerations” for rocket design.   While this might have been extra engineers to help with Gemini, the author feels it was for the soon to be canceled S-III stage.    S-III was likely canceled to avoid duplication of stages (the S-II stage had a similar role on the C-3 and C-4 rockets) and free up McDonnell for the Gemini program.   The timing of the cancelation of the S-III coincides with the Silverstein commission ordering Douglas to make the S-IVB.  

Saturn C-2 S-II stage.   With the cancelation of the S-III listed above, the Saturn C-II needed a new stage.    Thus came into existence the 4 engine S-II stage which is designed by North American Aviation to match the 260” diameter of the S-I stage.   The C-2 S-II stage would be approximately the same height as the S-I stage (74 ft approximately) and be powered by 4x J-2 engines.  

 

The Saturn C-3 Rocket family:   

The C-3 is a large diameter, all new rocket not derived from the C-I Cluster tank arrangement.   A Clean Sheet design, the C-3 was developed for an Earth-Orbit Rendezvous to build a large ship to fly to the moon and back.   Several C-3 and C-2 launches would be required to build this space based ship to go to the moon and then preform landings with a lander and return to Earth.  

S-I (C-3):  First stage of the C-3 rocket was intended to be powered by 2 of the new F-1 engines.  THIS is the rocket the F-1 was first ordered for, not the much latter C-5 (Saturn V.)   Stage diameter would have been 320 Inches and the overall length would have been about 113 feet.   The Twin F-1 engines would have been on exposed skeletal mounts, the theory at the time being it would reduce the need for “drag producing” fins by producing the drag with the engine bells themselves.  Likely a production version of this would have ended up almost looking like the much latter Pyrios Booster for Space Launch System.   The S-I (C-3) stage was also sometimes called S-IB-2.   Given there was no other S-I stage for the C-3 ever designed or designated, I choose to ignore the sources that call it S-IB-2 since they all seems to stem from Astronautix.  

S-II (C-3)   This is the first appearance of the S-II stage for the Saturn Family.   Like the S-I (C-3) Stage above  this S-II stage would have been 320 inches in diameter and have 4 J-2 engines.   The over all length would have been closer to 70 feet meaning the S-II (C-3) would have slightly more fuel mass than the latter S-II (C-2 would have.)   

S-III (C-3)  A short lived stage for the C-3, the S-III here, identical to that of the C-2 rocket, would have served as a waypoint between the S-II (C-3) and the S-IV (C-3.)  Canceled as the S-IVB was ordered into creation.    On this, the Saturn C-3 rocket, the S-III would have been used for final Orbital insertion in LEO with the S-IV being used for post LEO orbit work only.    There is no indication that the “growth” version of the S-IV would have been used with the C-3 rocket.  It is assumed that the S-IV pictured above is the correct S-IV for all S-III launches.

S-I (C-3B)   Latter in the design process for the Saturn rockets, attention was returned to just the first stage of the Saturn C-3 program and a 33ft (10m) S-I (C-3B) was developed.   This would be a 3 F-1 engine powered stage with significant growth of fuel capacity.    The remaining stages would be the same as on the C-3 before it.    Unlike the Latter S-IC for the Saturn V, the 3 engine C-3B S-I would be approximately 8 meters shorter.

S-N (C-3 or C-3B)  In either case of it’s first stage the Nerva powered S-N stage for the C-3 would have had a diameter of 320 inches and an approximate length of 65 feet.   Given the secrecy at the time around nuclear reactors, and still today for that matter, there exists few realistic drawings of what this stage would look like.   

IXiSrVF.png

An interesting drawing showing the C-2 with what appears to be a J-2 powered S-II stage and the C-3 with what seems to be an LR-87 Powered S-II stage.      The C-3 pictured here has non-representative F-1 engines, while all the other engines appear to be correctly represented.  These facts put this graphic as sometime in late 1960 or very early 1961, well before the June 1961 cancelation of C-2.

 

Solid Rocket fans had a proposal to use a Solid Rocket booster to launch a C-3 rocket.  This monolithic SRB would later become the much-loved AJ-260 of Saturn Fame.   It would have been in its 4million pound-force thrust initial long rocket short burn configuration.  The one that would break the Saturn INT-05 as mentioned in my previous article.   The 2nd stage would still be the larger 320” diameter so a conic interstage between 260” and 320.”   One thing noted in several documents is the interstage would have blowout panels in the bottom of the conic structure near the juncture of the AJ-260 and the cone.  

 

Wx95HYL.png

And yes, to the observant of you.  Nova is stupid big.  And while it uses some of the same engines from Saturn, it is NOT A SATURN!   And Saturn used some of the engines from NOVA (M-1, anyone?!)

 

 

 

 Saturn C series C-4 stages:

The Saturn C-4 was the first design to get us to the moon in one launch.   It would have had little margin for error, and once, Liquid Hydrogen was discovered to not store well in space.  With Hypergolic storable fuel in the Service module, the mass to the moon was not enough for more than flyby missions.   The change in fuel makes this rocket nearly moot from the get-go.   Two sizes were designed from the start.   A 396” diameter quickly supplanted the 320” diameter after Michoud’s dimensions were finalized.   As such, when Data is present, I will provide it in 320” then 396” dimensions.   If no data is available for one size or the other, it will be noted.

S-I (C-4)   4 F-1 engines, 320” x 113.1ft    396” x 95.01ft.

S-II(C-4)  4x J-2 engines, 320” x69.8ft    396” x 54.98ft.

 

Saturn C-4B:   This is a Saturn V in all but name utilizing a common bulkhead in the S-IC stage.

S-IC (C-4B): 5 F-4 Engines, 396” x 109.77ft  Common bulkhead.  This stage is approximately 10 feet shorter than the latter flat Bulkhead S-IC for the Saturn V in the MLV programs.

S-II (C-4B):  Identical to Saturn V S-II stage.

Several launch configurations did not use the S-IVB and instead used a 260” payload fairing attached  directly to the S-II stage.

 

Oddbal Rockets utilizing the Cluster S-I stage:

Saturn-Atlas: Combining an all-up Atlas F Centaur with the Saturn S-I cluster stage.  This idea was removed as silly early on in the thought process.   Without major changes to the Atlas Launcher, there was no way to secure the Atlas on top of the S-I stage.

Saturn-Titan:   Separate from the earlier Saturn B series of proposals, a stand-alone un-modified Titan I would be mounted on the Saturn Cluster stage.   The interstage would attach to the Titan’s first stage attachment points.   The USAF’s primary concern was the need for the “cooling” vents that were on all the early Titan I and II rockets.   Something that Martin and Aerojet figured out was not needed two years later….  

Yes there was stupid stuff going on...

 

Edited by Pappystein
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3 hours ago, MashAndBangers said:

The early days...

zdSMTwl.pngoE3nYxs.pngn0j21c2.pngJB5Vt8T.png

 

Or maybe NASA 2021...

Was about to crack a joke about materialist advertising, but then I saw the Raid Shadow Legends decal and realized you did it for me.

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4 hours ago, Pappystein said:

So decided, after reading a couple NTRS articles today...   A new Historical document.  The Saturn Stages that were canceled.

 

It is not a complete list.   And the data is subjective at best.  But there are interesting things.  And for once... PICTURES :D

  Hide contents

Saturn  The stages that were not meant to be:

 

This incomplete chronological discussion of stages meant for the Saturn Rocket that were either, never designed, never built, or canceled as foolish ideas but someone still wrote them down!

 

This will not be a complete list as there are a LOT of stages, we just don’t have a lot of information on, and some “stages” are hypothetical ones that people, not associated with the Saturn Program arm chaired into it because they had media connections…. Lookin at you NOVA!

This document will be broken down into Rocket families.

·         The Saturn C series, including Saturn I and Saturn V

·         Saturn A/B series.   Not a lot of engineering was done here

·         Oddballs and un-filed stages

 

Saturn C series  C-1 and C-2 stages:

While the Saturn C-1 evolved into the Saturn I and Saturn IB rocket stages… there are several components that were designed but not built.  Prior to late June 1961 the Saturn C-2 was also being designed.   It’s cancelation is the result of focusing Saturn on the moon.

Original S-IV stage.   The Original S-IV was a 4 engine LR-119 powered (the is RL10A-3 for those of you who don’t speak US Air Force designations) small diameter stage.   It’s top diameter would have been 3.05m to match with the S-V stage (more to come on that in a bit) and it’s main tank diameter would have been 4.7m or 185”.   To meet the S-I stage a combined conic structure on the S-I stage would conjoin with a flared skirt structure with conic shaped blowout panels.

Here is a picture of the Mockup:

OC9K8o1.png

Description of the changes:   4, instead of 6 engines, a subtle taper from the cylindrical to the conic tank, almost an ogive curve instead of straight-sided, and the conic instead of cylindrical blow out panels on the aft skirt.   Due to fears in the delay of the LR-119, the enlarged S-IV was ordered, and built… and this is one of several “early” mass adds to the Saturn I rocket.

Photo from NTRS document 19650020284

Saturn S-V (Centaur) Stage:   Much has been written about this… and much has been obscured.  Before the Centaur's initial launch, and its failure, the Centaur C series was meant for the Saturn Rocket.   The Centaur was designed to put a large payload into deep space orbit.   Remember, this was before we had even figured out how to calculate planetary slingshot maneuvers, or at least test their theory.   The Saturn Rocket was meant to launch a satellite on a direct flight trajectory to any planet in our solar system.   No slingshots, no reserves, no nothing.   Knowing that space was cold, boiloff was mostly not considered…  with tragic results.    In the end, The Centaur C series would be co-opted by the Centaur test program and used on Atlas rockets to test design features for now “full production” Centaur D series.   In 1959-1961 however it, the Centaur C was labeled as the S-V stage in many Marshal SFC documents.     In terms of structure and insulation, the Centaur C would have been closer to the Centaur D.1T of the 1970s.   It would not have had the jettisonable insulation like the D and D.1A.   It wouldn’t need it being carried under a fairing it was believed.    However, when the S-I rocket flew, the S-IV stage, be it dummy or real, had a top diameter of ~3.05m precluding a fairing to cover the body of a S-V centaur stage.    Latter the Centaur E would be programmed to launch from the Saturn Rockets.   Centaur E, is physically identical to the D.1T and only differs in fitments and avionics to be compatible with the Saturn Rocket.   It should be noted, that while many documents written post 1961 cite the Saturn S-V stage, in May of 1961 MSFC received a contract re-write to the effect of loosing S-V compatibility to the S-I stage to affect structural revisions to the S-I stage for future upgradability.   In short the S-V would not fly on a Saturn I after the initial Blk I testing (and it only flew as a mass simulator at that!)

Saturn S-V Big Centaur:   There are 3 documents in both the USAF archives as well as the NASA NTRS servers that mention a Big Centaur for the Saturn V.   This would have been a stretch of the Centaur E above with further uprated engines.   All references to this are vague and should be considered less as a fact but more as a “hey can we do” this idea.  

Saturn S-V Dynasoar.   The Saturn C-1 design, for several months, was the chosen launcher for the USAF’s Dynasoar program, and several features that were to fly on the Saturn I rocket were the result of this.   The Dynasoar would have had a structural, communication and avionics module to attach it to the top of a S-V Centaur (given the time frame Centaur C.)   The “SCA” would replace the centaur avionics and provide USAF specific ground control features.    Other features built into the Saturn C-1 design that actually flew on the Saturn I were giant fins.  The Saturn Rocket did not need these fins to fly, rather they were needed to counteract the wing surface of a Dynasoar and to save time the stage was not re-engineered to fly without them.   With Dynasoar these fins were to have had hydraulic actuated control surfaces.   In the end the fins on the rocket were simplified versions, without any sort of control actuation or movable surfaces.   With the Advent of the more advanced Saturn IB or Saturn C-1Blk2 the fins, still retained shed even more mass.  

Saturn I S-IVB 220” Diameter.    Initially ordered as a simple re-engine of the S-IV stage, the S-IVB would have had a tank stretch to increase the fuel.  Switching to the core stage 260” diameter allowed a height reduction of almost 15 feet and increased strength without added mass.  

 

Saturn C-2 S-III stage:

Early on it was hoped the Saturn C-2 would be ordered about a year and a half behind the C-1 to allow for the development of the S-III stage and it’s J-2 engine.     The S-III stage, would be used on the C-2, C-3 and for one month, the C-4 rockets.   The S-III stage can best be described as a 2/3rds height S-IVB with 2 J-2 engines.   2x the thrust 2/3rds the fuel capacity.   This is a dramatic over-simplification in terms of accuracy.   While no contract was ever let for this stage, we can surmise that McDonnell was the likely company to produce it.   We do know that about this time McDonnell was contracting with Douglas for “Technical considerations” for rocket design.   While this might have been extra engineers to help with Gemini, the author feels it was for the soon to be canceled S-III stage.    S-III was likely canceled to avoid duplication of stages (the S-II stage had a similar role on the C-3 and C-4 rockets) and free up McDonnell for the Gemini program.   The timing of the cancelation of the S-III coincides with the Silverstein commission ordering Douglas to make the S-IVB.  

Saturn C-2 S-II stage.   With the cancelation of the S-III listed above, the Saturn C-II needed a new stage.    Thus came into existence the 4 engine S-II stage which is designed by North American Aviation to match the 260” diameter of the S-I stage.   The C-2 S-II stage would be approximately the same height as the S-I stage (74 ft approximately) and be powered by 4x J-2 engines.  

 

The Saturn C-3 Rocket family:   

The C-3 is a large diameter, all new rocket not derived from the C-I Cluster tank arrangement.   A Clean Sheet design, the C-3 was developed for an Earth-Orbit Rendezvous to build a large ship to fly to the moon and back.   Several C-3 and C-2 launches would be required to build this space based ship to go to the moon and then preform landings with a lander and return to Earth.  

S-I (C-3):  First stage of the C-3 rocket was intended to be powered by 2 of the new F-1 engines.  THIS is the rocket the F-1 was first ordered for, not the much latter C-5 (Saturn V.)   Stage diameter would have been 320 Inches and the overall length would have been about 113 feet.   The Twin F-1 engines would have been on exposed skeletal mounts, the theory at the time being it would reduce the need for “drag producing” fins by producing the drag with the engine bells themselves.  Likely a production version of this would have ended up almost looking like the much latter Pyrios Booster for Space Launch System.   The S-I (C-3) stage was also sometimes called S-IB-2.   Given there was no other S-I stage for the C-3 ever designed or designated, I choose to ignore the sources that call it S-IB-2 since they all seems to stem from Astronautix.  

S-II (C-3)   This is the first appearance of the S-II stage for the Saturn Family.   Like the S-I (C-3) Stage above  this S-II stage would have been 320 inches in diameter and have 4 J-2 engines.   The over all length would have been closer to 70 feet meaning the S-II (C-3) would have slightly more fuel mass than the latter S-II (C-2 would have.)   

S-III (C-3)  A short lived stage for the C-3, the S-III here, identical to that of the C-2 rocket, would have served as a waypoint between the S-II (C-3) and the S-IV (C-3.)  Canceled as the S-IVB was ordered into creation.    On this, the Saturn C-3 rocket, the S-III would have been used for final Orbital insertion in LEO with the S-IV being used for post LEO orbit work only.    There is no indication that the “growth” version of the S-IV would have been used with the C-3 rocket.  It is assumed that the S-IV pictured above is the correct S-IV for all S-III launches.

S-I (C-3B)   Latter in the design process for the Saturn rockets, attention was returned to just the first stage of the Saturn C-3 program and a 33ft (10m) S-I (C-3B) was developed.   This would be a 3 F-1 engine powered stage with significant growth of fuel capacity.    The remaining stages would be the same as on the C-3 before it.    Unlike the Latter S-IC for the Saturn V, the 3 engine C-3B S-I would be approximately 8 meters shorter.

S-N (C-3 or C-3B)  In either case of it’s first stage the Nerva powered S-N stage for the C-3 would have had a diameter of 320 inches and an approximate length of 65 feet.   Given the secrecy at the time around nuclear reactors, and still today for that matter, there exists few realistic drawings of what this stage would look like.   

IXiSrVF.png

An interesting drawing showing the C-2 with what appears to be a J-2 powered S-II stage and the C-3 with what seems to be an LR-87 Powered S-II stage.      The C-3 pictured here has non-representative F-1 engines, while all the other engines appear to be correctly represented.  These facts put this graphic as sometime in late 1960 or very early 1961, well before the June 1961 cancelation of C-2.

 

Solid Rocket fans had a proposal to use a Solid Rocket booster to launch a C-3 rocket.  This monolithic SRB would later become the much-loved AJ-260 of Saturn Fame.   It would have been in its 4million pound-force thrust initial long rocket short burn configuration.  The one that would break the Saturn INT-05 as mentioned in my previous article.   The 2nd stage would still be the larger 320” diameter so a conic interstage between 260” and 320.”   One thing noted in several documents is the interstage would have blowout panels in the bottom of the conic structure near the juncture of the AJ-260 and the cone.  

 

Wx95HYL.png

And yes, to the observant of you.  Nova is stupid big.  And while it uses some of the same engines from Saturn, it is NOT A SATURN!   And Saturn used some of the engines from NOVA (M-1, anyone?!)

 

 

 

 Saturn C series C-4 stages:

The Saturn C-4 was the first design to get us to the moon in one launch.   It would have had little margin for error, and once, Liquid Hydrogen was discovered to not store well in space.  With Hypergolic storable fuel in the Service module, the mass to the moon was not enough for more than flyby missions.   The change in fuel makes this rocket nearly moot from the get-go.   Two sizes were designed from the start.   A 396” diameter quickly supplanted the 320” diameter after Michoud’s dimensions were finalized.   As such, when Data is present, I will provide it in 320” then 396” dimensions.   If no data is available for one size or the other, it will be noted.

S-I (C-4)   4 F-1 engines, 320” x 113.1ft    396” x 95.01ft.

S-II(C-4)  4x J-2 engines, 320” x69.8ft    396” x 54.98ft.

 

Saturn C-4B:   This is a Saturn V in all but name utilizing a common bulkhead in the S-IC stage.

S-IC (C-4B): 5 F-4 Engines, 396” x 109.77ft  Common bulkhead.  This stage is approximately 10 feet shorter than the latter flat Bulkhead S-IC for the Saturn V in the MLV programs.

S-II (C-4B):  Identical to Saturn V S-II stage.

Several launch configurations did not use the S-IVB and instead used a 260” payload fairing attached  directly to the S-II stage.

 

Oddbal Rockets utilizing the Cluster S-I stage:

Saturn-Atlas: Combining an all-up Atlas F Centaur with the Saturn S-I cluster stage.  This idea was removed as silly early on in the thought process.   Without major changes to the Atlas Launcher, there was no way to secure the Atlas on top of the S-I stage.

Saturn-Titan:   Separate from the earlier Saturn B series of proposals, a stand-alone un-modified Titan I would be mounted on the Saturn Cluster stage.   The interstage would attach to the Titan’s first stage attachment points.   The USAF’s primary concern was the need for the “cooling” vents that were on all the early Titan I and II rockets.   Something that Martin and Aerojet figured out was not needed two years later….  

Yes there was stupid stuff going on...

 

Do you have an image of Saturn-Atlas? I want to see how cursed it is

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Encountering a bit of a bug on the Apollo Saturn revamp build where any attempt to use the Hokulani/Skylab OWS or WWS part will result in the model switching to the Light Wet Workshop model upon launching. Anyone else encountering this issue, and if so is there a fix to it?

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4 hours ago, Cmdr. Jaiteaes said:

Encountering a bit of a bug on the Apollo Saturn revamp build where any attempt to use the Hokulani/Skylab OWS or WWS part will result in the model switching to the Light Wet Workshop model upon launching. Anyone else encountering this issue, and if so is there a fix to it?

Is the shroud returning? Or is the shroud changing to the wide shroud used on the LWWS? 

Either way it sounds related to a known issue with shrouds which is caused by having the workshop as the root part. Its being looked at but JSO informs me root related problems are difficult to solve so may not be possible. In any case I would recommend making sure another part is root, typically it should be the instrument unit. 

I will add this warning to the part description sometime today.

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9 hours ago, derega16 said:

Do you have an image of Saturn-Atlas? I want to see how cursed it is

It is literally a Atlas-Centaur put right on top of a Saturn S-I stage... an almost flat blunt fairing would keep the Atlas Engines (the bottom 3) hidden,  The LR-101s would be in the airflow during launch and allowed to castor.     While there are drawings of it... I think the best one was posted a few pages back by someone else (it is actually what triggered me to do this one!)

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7 hours ago, AmateurAstronaut1969 said:

Huh, it might be imgur then that’s changing something in the photos. 

Only if you have time but could you upload them into a Dropbox or google drive? Or if there is a source for these photos I can just find them on my own.

Edited by SpaceFace545
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9 hours ago, derega16 said:

Do you have an image of Saturn-Atlas? I want to see how cursed it is

Some notional images of Juno V with Atlas, Titan, and a new made second stage with Jupiter.

Juno_V_Fig_11_DXM.jpg?ssl=1

Edited by Jcking
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24 minutes ago, Jcking said:

Some notional images of Juno V with Atlas, Titan, and a new made second stage.

Juno_V_Fig_11_DXM.jpg?ssl=1

While that isn't the picture;/drawing I saw yes this is the basic config... (was looking for the image I saw and realized I saw it on a Discord server)  

In the drawing I saw the interface between Atlas and S-I looked much flatter/blunter.  

The third drawing here includes a Cluster 2nd stage.  I did not include this in my paper above because there is literally zero data in the actual NASA documents other than to say "an early upper stage concept using the cluster technique developed for the S-I stage."   

The early Saturn History (when it was still part of the Juno Program)   is hampered as NASA, even though they are public documents will not put them on the NRTS server:    eg:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19630006108

 

 

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Kerballo 8

bsjzirC.png

"LIFTOFF! THE CLOCK IS RUNNING!"~Frank Kerman

Finally have a rig that can run KSP without it stuttering like mad at 1080P.

Spoiler

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ONE PROBLEM: The SLA panels don't separate properly. They're still usable, but no decent shots of the iconic sep yet. IDK if its an issue with the panels or adapter.

 

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