[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[Pappystein]

57 minutes ago, draqsko said:

Note that is all 2.5x scale so pretty close to something you could do for real. The Apollo one might not have made it to the Moon, it could have certainly flew by but not sure how performance would have been with a fully fueled CSM and LM. Half the fuel load is fine for Minmus, not so much the Moon.

Size for size, the Algol SRB is almost the exact same size as the Minuteman segment that was supposed to be used on INT-19.    Somewhere I have a CFG to remake the Algol into the correct performance too.   I didn't release it because it is too singular use and I didn't want anybody making mistakes (completely different rocket/flight profile.)    I will have to see if it is in my saved CFG folder (I don't fly it anymore.)

 

VERY LOOSELY semi related....   A few years ago I remember reading about the canceled 100 inch SRB for Titan I that is represented by the Sultan SRB in game.   One of the things I read was that there was a spontaneous ignition (caused by Lightening) and people were injured/died.   Anyone know where to find that info?

I am reaching out because I thought I still had this info (I was sure it was part of the introduction to the Space Shuttle SRB size/qty PDF from NASA.   I mentioned it on Cobalt's dev stream last week and have wasted a couple of good gaming days digging through my files.

 

 

 

 

[draqsko]

41 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

VERY LOOSELY semi related....   A few years ago I remember reading about the canceled 100 inch SRB for Titan I that is represented by the Sultan SRB in game.   One of the things I read was that there was a spontaneous ignition (caused by Lightening) and people were injured/died.   Anyone know where to find that info?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents#Non-astronaut_fatalities

Only a couple incidents that I could find, one similar to what you describe but for Delta rocket.

Quote

The third stage of a Delta rocket had just been joined to the Orbiting Solar Observatory satellite in the spin test facility building at Cape Kennedy. Eleven workers were in the room when the 205 kg (452 lb) of solid fuel in the third stage ignited. Sidney Dagle, 29; Lot D. Gabel, 51, and John Fassett, 30, were severely burned and later died of their injuries. Eight others were injured, but survived. The ignition was caused by a spark of static electricity

And the other one was this, for a Titan IV.

Quote

A Titan IV launch vehicle solid rocket booster was being hoisted by a crane into a rocket test stand at Edwards AFB, California. The bottom section of the booster broke free, hit the ground and ignited. One person, Alan M. Quimby, 27, a civilian employee of Wyle Laboratories, was killed and 9 others were injured in the accident.

 

[Pappystein]

2 hours ago, draqsko said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents#Non-astronaut_fatalities

Only a couple incidents that I could find, one similar to what you describe but for Delta rocket.

And the other one was this, for a Titan IV.

 

Thanks,   I noticed that aside from the X-15 accident none of the USAF Accidents/deaths are listed.   I wonder if that is because they were for weapons programs and not "Space" programs.   The multitude of Reaction Motors Rocket explosions for the Entire X family of planes just one SET of examples. 

 

[Cruss]

Anyone recently tried to launch a LEM with a sarnus rocket to the moon? 

I'm on 1.7.3 with rss, no RO, i use smurff at default settings.

If I built the sarnus rocket as intended, it's about 50 meters short vs the real life version. If I add more tanks I get a very realistic first stage thrust to weight ratio (1.15) but with about 1/3rd of the thrust needed for the real life variant.(10.000 kn +-). 

However I configure it though, i can not get it into orbit with enough delta v in the 3rd stage for TLI. Unless i add boosters. Not even if I switch the regors out for mainsails, or use a 7 engine second stage. 

I've tried several mechjeb and manual ascents now all without luck, requiring me to spend about 2-300m/s delta v from the service module.

In the end I don't really mind strapping on more boosters but maybe I'm missing something lol.

Edit:

I forgot to switch one tank to the right fuel type lol.... rocket is now 85m long and has a bit spare delta V for TLI

Edited August 24, 2019 by Cruss

[draqsko]

8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Thanks,   I noticed that aside from the X-15 accident none of the USAF Accidents/deaths are listed.   I wonder if that is because they were for weapons programs and not "Space" programs.   The multitude of Reaction Motors Rocket explosions for the Entire X family of planes just one SET of examples. 

 

That could be, maybe it was an Air Force accident. Lots of incidents involving Titans, but those are for deployed missiles though, not development programs. Might have to search service records to find experimental program fatalities and that would be ugly with Vietnam.

 

57 minutes ago, Cruss said:

Anyone recently tried to launch a LEM with a sarnus rocket to the moon? 

I'm on 1.7.3 with rss, no RO, i use smurff at default settings.

If I built the sarnus rocket as intended, it's about 50 meters short vs the real life version. If I add more tanks I get a very realistic first stage thrust to weight ratio (1.15) but with about 1/3rd of the thrust needed for the real life variant.(10.000 kn +-). 

However I configure it though, i can not get it into orbit with enough delta v in the 3rd stage for TLI. Unless i add boosters. Not even if I switch the regors out for mainsails, or use a 7 engine second stage. 

I've tried several mechjeb and manual ascents now all without luck, requiring me to spend about 2-300m/s delta v from the service module.

In the end I don't really mind strapping on more boosters but maybe I'm missing something lol.

Edit:

I forgot to switch one tank to the right fuel type lol.... rocket is now 85m long and has a bit spare delta V for TLI

Just so you know, the diameter of the first and second stage, and the length of the first stage is compressed, likely the second too not sure.

BDB's Sarnus is 5.625m (roughly) while the scaled version should be ~6.4m. CW did that to make it compatible with stock otherwise people would have had trouble building it in the VAB without Hanger Extender.

Get this config to make it closer to real size: https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/master/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/Saturn_Rescale/Saturn_Rescale.cfg

May need to tweak the numbers yourself though, they are provided as is.

[Cruss]

39 minutes ago, draqsko said:

Just so you know, the diameter of the first and second stage, and the length of the first stage is compressed, likely the second too not sure.

BDB's Sarnus is 5.625m (roughly) while the scaled version should be ~6.4m. CW did that to make it compatible with stock otherwise people would have had trouble building it in the VAB without Hanger Extender.

Get this config to make it closer to real size: https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/master/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/Saturn_Rescale/Saturn_Rescale.cfg

May need to tweak the numbers yourself though, they are provided as is.

Yes I noticed that discrepancy aswell and I assumed that is indeed to make it fit in a stock VAB, even at 85meters it's already a bit too tall. i'll check out those files, thank you!

[Pappystein]

3 hours ago, Cruss said:

Anyone recently tried to launch a LEM with a sarnus rocket to the moon? 

I'm on 1.7.3 with rss, no RO, i use smurff at default settings.

 

I did a Saturn II (no S-IC stage) to the Mun in 2.5 scale yesterday.   Didn't have enough fuel in the CM to orbit but I DID carry the LEM.   SO I would say it is SMURFF + RSS where the breakdown is.   IIRC SMURFF is not 100% BDB compliant but since I don't use it please don't quote me!

2 hours ago, draqsko said:

Get this config to make it closer to real size: https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/master/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/Saturn_Rescale/Saturn_Rescale.cfg

May need to tweak the numbers yourself though, they are provided as is.

The Saturn S-IVB to CM SLA adaptor will not work with those settings (since It is designed for the 3.75 to 2.5m scale and Real life the angle is different.)  Unless I am un-aware of something!

 

[CobaltWolf]

17 hours ago, Friznit said:

One thing I've had to come to terms with since starting to learn about US space rocket development is that whenever you think you've come up with completely bonkers idea, NASA got there first.

16 hours ago, Pappystein said:

HEY!!!! DON'T KNOCK MY BABY!!!!!!   \

It is probably one of the Better Ideas to keep Saturn Flying that was proposed.   Relatively low cost but canceled due to "lack of need" and "new engine = too expensive on top of the Space Shuttle that will have it's contract let in 2 years"

Saturn II INT-18 is my favorite Station resupply Station Building rocket.    I am the one who strong-armed persuaded Cobalt into making the Sea-Level J-2 a few years ago.   OK I admit I actually BEGGED since he was touching up some textures on J-2 already!  

Come to think of it... I have not flown it with the new Titan Revamp... Umm  Be back in a Bit!

I... don't like Saturn II. I'm much more of an INT-20 with a stretched S-1D first stage kind of guy.

Re: your edit, and this goes for everyone, I am REALLY awful at keeping tags updated and thinking of things that people would search for. Please feel free, especially as we approach release, to bring up these sort of user experience issues because I am REALLY not tuned into them.

The sea level J-2 is a beast, by the way. It sorta makes the sea level LR-87-LH2 irrelevant...

 

17 hours ago, komodo said:

So I had to buy more ram for my new laptop. Bad news I had to buy ram, good news is I can run KSP again. I may be around more often this fall.

I really like how the titan revamp went. The acceleration curves are amazing. Perfect score for falling off the clamps on launch, would topple again.

Excited to have you back! I am really happy, overall, with the quality of the revamp. The spool up time for the LR-87s is a side effect of needing to let the bwoooOOOOOP play out, but I think all the liquid engines should have it so you have reason to do more realistic launch sequences.

 

16 hours ago, draqsko said:

I went one step further and took that puppy to Minmus with Apollo. Of course I used the 7 segment boosters.

And the Big G Tourist bus on the INT 19, for Munar and Minar flybys.

Note that is all 2.5x scale so pretty close to something you could do for real. The Apollo one might not have made it to the Moon, it could have certainly flew by but not sure how performance would have been with a fully fueled CSM and LM. Half the fuel load is fine for Minmus, not so much the Moon.

I was going to ask what scale you were flying in, nice.

 

15 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Size for size, the Algol SRB is almost the exact same size as the Minuteman segment that was supposed to be used on INT-19.    Somewhere I have a CFG to remake the Algol into the correct performance too.   I didn't release it because it is too singular use and I didn't want anybody making mistakes (completely different rocket/flight profile.)    I will have to see if it is in my saved CFG folder (I don't fly it anymore.)

I would say that the Restock Hammer is the right thing for Minuteman but it's too short.

 

15 hours ago, Pappystein said:

VERY LOOSELY semi related....   A few years ago I remember reading about the canceled 100 inch SRB for Titan I that is represented by the Sultan SRB in game.   One of the things I read was that there was a spontaneous ignition (caused by Lightening) and people were injured/died.   Anyone know where to find that info?

I am reaching out because I thought I still had this info (I was sure it was part of the introduction to the Space Shuttle SRB size/qty PDF from NASA.   I mentioned it on Cobalt's dev stream last week and have wasted a couple of good gaming days digging through my files.

13 hours ago, draqsko said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents#Non-astronaut_fatalities

Only a couple incidents that I could find, one similar to what you describe but for Delta rocket.

And the other one was this, for a Titan IV.

11 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Thanks,   I noticed that aside from the X-15 accident none of the USAF Accidents/deaths are listed.   I wonder if that is because they were for weapons programs and not "Space" programs.   The multitude of Reaction Motors Rocket explosions for the Entire X family of planes just one SET of examples.

2 hours ago, draqsko said:

That could be, maybe it was an Air Force accident. Lots of incidents involving Titans, but those are for deployed missiles though, not development programs. Might have to search service records to find experimental program fatalities and that would be ugly with Vietnam.

I am fairly sure the SOLTANs were never more than a rough outline of desired performance. If there was an SRB of that scale that detonated, I'd assume it was for some sort of solid fueled missile. I agree that the most similar sounding one on the list is the OSO detonation.

Incidentally Pappy, I know this will interest you - me and some friends were talking about the 156 in. diameter SRM, I'm still not in a rush to make it but we did turn up some info on it including photos of the one that got test fired!

http://acgsc.org/Meetings/Meeting_98/Subcommitte B/6.3.pdf
http://www.aia-aerospace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/THE-1967-AEROSPACE-YEAR-BOOK_Part3.pdf

There's even a picture of the (boring) remaining 156 in. segment in the rocket garden at ATK's headquarters:

 

3 hours ago, Cruss said:

Anyone recently tried to launch a LEM with a sarnus rocket to the moon? 

I'm on 1.7.3 with rss, no RO, i use smurff at default settings.

If I built the sarnus rocket as intended, it's about 50 meters short vs the real life version. If I add more tanks I get a very realistic first stage thrust to weight ratio (1.15) but with about 1/3rd of the thrust needed for the real life variant.(10.000 kn +-). 

However I configure it though, i can not get it into orbit with enough delta v in the 3rd stage for TLI. Unless i add boosters. Not even if I switch the regors out for mainsails, or use a 7 engine second stage. 

I've tried several mechjeb and manual ascents now all without luck, requiring me to spend about 2-300m/s delta v from the service module.

In the end I don't really mind strapping on more boosters but maybe I'm missing something lol.

Edit: I forgot to switch one tank to the right fuel type lol.... rocket is now 85m long and has a bit spare delta V for TLI

2 hours ago, draqsko said:

Just so you know, the diameter of the first and second stage, and the length of the first stage is compressed, likely the second too not sure.

BDB's Sarnus is 5.625m (roughly) while the scaled version should be ~6.4m. CW did that to make it compatible with stock otherwise people would have had trouble building it in the VAB without Hanger Extender.

Get this config to make it closer to real size: https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/master/BD_Extras (No Warranty)/GameData/Bluedog_DB_Extras/Saturn_Rescale/Saturn_Rescale.cfg

May need to tweak the numbers yourself though, they are provided as is.

1 hour ago, Cruss said:

Yes I noticed that discrepancy aswell and I assumed that is indeed to make it fit in a stock VAB, even at 85meters it's already a bit too tall. i'll check out those files, thank you!

Just now, Pappystein said:

I did a Saturn II (no S-IC stage) to the Mun in 2.5 scale yesterday.   Didn't have enough fuel in the CM to orbit but I DID carry the LEM.   SO I would say it is SMURFF + RSS where the breakdown is.   IIRC SMURFF is not 100% BDB compliant but since I don't use it please don't quote me!

The Saturn S-IVB to CM SLA adaptor will not work with those settings (since It is designed for the 3.75 to 2.5m scale and Real life the angle is different.)  Unless I am un-aware of something!

BDB has a custom SMURFF patch but I don't think it's been updated in years. Personally, I'd recommend against using SMURFF or the Saturn rescale (Draqsko, that's not the reason why I built it at that scale. THAT is a long story that has been lost to the sands of time...), I'd just use a 2.5x rescale (I think there's still a route to getting a 2.5x SSRSS - type system)

 

Another thing that we finally were able to figure out - I've always been confused by this image on Astronautix:

The description had a clue, that I repeatedly missed...

Quote

American heavy-lift orbital launch vehicle. The Zenith Star space-based chemical laser missile defense weapon required a launch vehicle capable of placing a 45,000 kg payload into low earth orbit. Martin and Aerojet turned to their work 20 years earlier on advanced Titans for the MOL program. These earlier studies were combined with new concepts for tank construction and materials. The Martin Barbarian was a 4.57 m diameter Titan vehicle (instead of the customary 3.05 m) with four LR-87 engines on the first stage, and a single LR-87 engine on the second stage.

Barbarian IRL was more like 5m, not 4.57... but 15 foot IS the size of the other big Titan proposals. And then I finally encountered this line in Ed Kyle's Titan LDC description, that I had apparently glossed over every time I read it...

Quote

While it was working on Titan 3M for MOL, Martin Company put a good deal of effort into studies of "Large Diameter Core" (LDC) Titans to handle heavier MOL payloads in the future. These would have used four engines on a 180 inch (15 foot) diameter first stage. Martin went as far as building an LDC fuel tank with four LR87-AJ11 engines for transport testing during 1966-67 (oxidizer and fuel tanks would have shipped separately to the launch site).

Aha! So this is an image of the mockup of the LDC first stage fuel tank with the four LR-87s! Mystery solved!

 

I am planning on streaming for a bit today, starting at the top of the hour from this post (around 11 AM Eastern)

Going to be working on some more new Gemini stuff!

[Cruss]

13 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

I did a Saturn II (no S-IC stage) to the Mun in 2.5 scale yesterday.   Didn't have enough fuel in the CM to orbit but I DID carry the LEM.   SO I would say it is SMURFF + RSS where the breakdown is.   IIRC SMURFF is not 100% BDB compliant but since I don't use it please don't quote me!

The Saturn S-IVB to CM SLA adaptor will not work with those settings (since It is designed for the 3.75 to 2.5m scale and Real life the angle is different.)  Unless I am un-aware of something!

 

I'm not sure which adaptor you are referring to, the one intended to carry lunar payloads works fine, i had to rebuilt the rocket though because all nodes got messed up, but when building a new rocket they were fine.

Unless other parts are balanced to counter for it, smaller scale sarnus should not be able to complete it's intended mission in rss I geuss. I don't know enough about BD and smurff compatibility to say anything about that really.

 

On a side note:

I can't for the life of me find the sarnus-he2j-550 engine variant, i've even tried finding it in the parts folder so i knew what I needed to research. No luck, one of the engine mounts refers to them and it might be the reason why my second stage is so weak atm.

[draqsko]

7 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

The Saturn S-IVB to CM SLA adaptor will not work with those settings (since It is designed for the 3.75 to 2.5m scale and Real life the angle is different.)  Unless I am un-aware of something!

Oh didn't realize that... but yeah you aren't unaware, it's commented out looking at the github probably because it messes up things with resizing it. Perhaps the normal fairing or barring that use Procedural Fairings. If you go PF use the Interstage base with Interstage walls, using fairing walls will try to enclose the top. Fairing base may work with interstage walls as well, forget if that has a top node or not though.

@Cruss

8 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

I was going to ask what scale you were flying in, nice.

You know I can't play stock anymore because of you and this mod... It was just so apparent when I did Gemini Direct Ascent to Mun with a Saturn 1B.

9 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

BDB has a custom SMURFF patch but I don't think it's been updated in years. Personally, I'd recommend against using SMURFF or the Saturn rescale (Draqsko, that's not the reason why I built it at that scale. THAT is a long story that has been lost to the sands of time...), I'd just use a 2.5x rescale (I think there's still a route to getting a 2.5x SSRSS - type system)

Still works fine for 2.5x (or at least I haven't had any weird issues like I did when I first started and recommended the 2.5x tweaks), haven't tested it for other installs and it should shut down SMURFF anyways and do its own thing but cap at 6.4x.

7 minutes ago, Cruss said:

I'm not sure which adaptor you are referring to, the one intended to carry lunar payloads works fine, i had to rebuilt the rocket though because all nodes got messed up, but when building a new rocket they were fine.

He's talking about the SLAM petal adapter. There's a few models so one might work, I've never tried that config, as I said if you have issues there's always Procedural Fairings which you can make work no matter what.

[Cruss]

@draqsko

https://imgshare.io/image/20190824-163735.dr6DO the adaptor with the petal fairing doors as a toggle option works. I'm not sure if it got upscaled as well or what, I was under the impression that both models where the same except for the way they are put together. 

As for going to 2.5x, i'd rather not, i'd have RO installed if it were compatible with 1.7.3. I'll just wait it out. I have done the same mission with FASA on a 10x rescale career save and ran into somewhat similar problems. Smurff does makes a lot of other parts work pretty well with rss, so it's either scaling down or downgrading ksp.

[CobaltWolf]

Booting up the stream now!

[draqsko]

17 minutes ago, Cruss said:

@draqsko

https://imgshare.io/image/20190824-163735.dr6DO the adaptor with the petal fairing doors as a toggle option works. I'm not sure if it got upscaled as well or what, I was under the impression that both models where the same except for the way they are put together. 

As for going to 2.5x, i'd rather not, i'd have RO installed if it were compatible with 1.7.3. I'll just wait it out. I have done the same mission with FASA on a 10x rescale career save and ran into somewhat similar problems. Smurff does makes a lot of other parts work pretty well with rss, so it's either scaling down or downgrading ksp.

There's  3 versions of it.

bluedog_Saturn_S4B_SLA (petal fairing with open top)

bluedog_Saturn_S4B_SLA_Full (petal fairing with closed top)

bluedog_Saturn_S4B_SLAbase (for use with the SLAM panels that break off on staging)

bluedog_Saturn_S4B_SLA_SinglePanel (SLAM panel)

And also for Apollo-Venus Flyby

bluedog_Saturn_VFB_MissionModule which goes with the SLAM panels.

Edited August 24, 2019 by draqsko
forgot FBM

[Cruss]

Well I geuss it's really an incompatibility issue between smurff and BD parts. In terms of delta V everything stayed the same and it's just a bigger rocket now :3

thanks for the help though

[draqsko]

12 minutes ago, Cruss said:

Well I geuss it's really an incompatibility issue between smurff and BD parts. In terms of delta V everything stayed the same and it's just a bigger rocket now :3

thanks for the help though

You can make it compatible but it might break things in BDB.

Go to Bluedog_DB > Compatibility > Rescale folder, and move the BlueSmurff.cfg outside of the KSP gamedata folder entirely (preferably out of your entire KSP install).

This is the part that makes BDB incompatible with SMURFF but commenting it out may not work because BDB has it's own SMURFF within that file that stops at >6.4x so would create issues with 10x SMURFF since both will try to apply sequentially potentially creating zero mass parts.

Quote

@PART[bluedog*,Bluedog*]:NEEDS[SMURFF]
{
    %SMURFFExclude = true
}

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by draqsko

[Cruss]

4 minutes ago, draqsko said:

You can make it compatible but it might break things in BDB.

Go to Bluedog_DB > Compatibility > Rescale folder, and move the BlueSmurff.cfg outside of the KSP gamedata folder entirely (preferably out of your entire KSP install).

This is the part that makes BDB incompatible with SMURFF but commenting it out may not work because BDB has it's own SMURFF within that file that stops at >6.4x so would create issues with 10x SMURFF since both will try to apply sequentially potentially creating zero mass parts.

 

I see, thanks for the advice!

[Pappystein]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Booting up the stream now!

 

Gak! Wish I wasn't in an Armada Tournament in 45 minutes!

Can't wait to see what you come up with next!

[Cruss]

1 hour ago, draqsko said:

You can make it compatible but it might break things in BDB.

Go to Bluedog_DB > Compatibility > Rescale folder, and move the BlueSmurff.cfg outside of the KSP gamedata folder entirely (preferably out of your entire KSP install).

This is the part that makes BDB incompatible with SMURFF but commenting it out may not work because BDB has it's own SMURFF within that file that stops at >6.4x so would create issues with 10x SMURFF since both will try to apply sequentially potentially creating zero mass parts.

 

I have tried this, and the rocket will have even less delta V, engines are a bit more powerfull too, i've just reverted to what I had originally.

The descent/ascent modules of the lander itself had enough delta V by the way. The service module aswell! 

[draqsko]

1 hour ago, Cruss said:

I have tried this, and the rocket will have even less delta V

Sounds like it's hitting a negative mass or zero mass perhaps, SMURFF tries to avoid doing stuff that would directly break physics.

Quote

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleSMURFF],#mass[<0]]:FINAL // Just in case any parts end up with negative mass -- shouldn't happen for stockalike-balanced parts, but it probably won't end well if it's left alone.
{
    @mass = #$initialmass$
}
 

So basically it'll undo any changes if it detects negative mass. That's why I gave the warning about just commenting out that part in BlueSmurff, because that might work around this check somehow.

[CobaltWolf]

Gemini Ferry and some of the MOL parts (lab, equipment section, RCS) are in game!

 

[Cruss]

1 hour ago, draqsko said:

Sounds like it's hitting a negative mass or zero mass perhaps, SMURFF tries to avoid doing stuff that would directly break physics.

So basically it'll undo any changes if it detects negative mass. That's why I gave the warning about just commenting out that part in BlueSmurff, because that might work around this check somehow.

That is probably the case, delta v was exceptionally low, even with the vab delta V read out set to vacuum, the rocket had just over 7000m/s. 

My comment on the LEM lander and CSM delta V referred to their values as they were originally, without the sarnus rescale patch and/or the removal of bluedog's internal smurff. Just to prevent confusion lol. 

I might look into making calculations for a proper 10x internal bluedog smurff config, but, with the amount of parts involved and my current knowledge on the subjects( both historical knowledge and experience with module manager syntax) is seriously lacking. So no promises. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Cruss

[draqsko]

1 hour ago, Cruss said:

I might look into making calculations for a proper 10x internal bluedog smurff config, but, with the amount of parts involved and my current knowledge on the subjects( both historical knowledge and experience with module manager syntax) is seriously lacking. So no promises. 

You aren't going to be able to go historical on the parts because historically mass ratios changed over time. For example this is Vanguard SLV-7 (launched Vanguard 3)

 

As you can see, the "tanks" of the rocket have alot of other things besides the actual fuel tanks so their mass ratios should be pretty low (around 70% or so). And then you have something like that Atlas

Where the tanks are mostly fuel tanks rather than fuel and equipment so their mass ratios should be much higher. (sorry for the tiny Atlas picture, just something to give an example). That's why things tend to fall apart for 10x scaling with BDB, because the parts don't properly account for what was really there and that's fine for stock or 2.5x but as you get bigger the difference becomes more noticeable. It also makes it a lot harder to make one universal rescale patch for all the parts.

Edited August 24, 2019 by draqsko

[Cruss]

54 minutes ago, draqsko said:

You aren't going to be able to go historical on the parts because historically mass ratios changed over time. For example this is Vanguard SLV-7 (launched Vanguard 3)

 

As you can see, the "tanks" of the rocket have alot of other things besides the actual fuel tanks so their mass ratios should be pretty low (around 70% or so). And then you have something like that Atlas

Where the tanks are mostly fuel tanks rather than fuel and equipment so their mass ratios should be much higher. (sorry for the tiny Atlas picture, just something to give an example). That's why things tend to fall apart for 10x scaling with BDB, because the parts don't properly account for what was really there and that's fine for stock or 2.5x but as you get bigger the difference becomes more noticeable. It also makes it a lot harder to make one universal rescale patch for all the parts.

It might be possible if I "reverse engineer" the values. That is, build each rocket the way it was intended, then tweak configs untill the parts are where I want them to be. 

But I agree, such an approach is far from ideal.

[TimothyC]

11 hours ago, draqsko said:

BDB's Sarnus is 5.625m (roughly) while the scaled version should be ~6.4m. CW did that to make it compatible with stock otherwise people would have had trouble building it in the VAB without Hanger Extender.

 

9 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Draqsko, that's not the reason why I built it at that scale. THAT is a long story that has been lost to the sands of time...

In the beginning  Cobalt said let there be a mod to fill the gap of Atlas, and lo, it was good. And Cobalt said let there be Titan and no Saturn, and lo, it was good. And the people lamented, and their cries were for Saturn. And Cobalt heard their cries, and was moved by them, and began Sarnus. And lo, when developing Sarnus, Cobalt cried out, for the game did not have hydrolox fuel support, and Cobalt was covetous of his mod, and desired not to have a dependency. And after much discussion, the decision was made to under-scale the Sarnus parts so that the Mighty F-1 engines would not need 90% of the thrust of the real engine to lift the stack. And Cobalt beheld this, and decided it was not good, and added hydrolox tankage to appease the masses, and they rejoiced for their rockets, and were grateful, until they went back to asking for Delta IV and X-20. - A Theatrical History of BDB

Edited August 24, 2019 by TimothyC

[draqsko]

4 minutes ago, TimothyC said:

In the Cobalt said let there be a mod to fill the gap of Atlas, and lo, it was good. And Cobalt said let there be Titan and no Saturn, and lo, it was good. And the people lamented, and their cries were for Saturn. And Cobalt heard their cries, and was moved by them, and began Sarnus. And lo, when developing Sarnus, Cobalt cried out, for the game did not have hydrolox fuel support, and Cobalt was covetous of his mod, and desired not to have a dependency. And after much discussion, the decision was made to under-scale the Sarnus parts so that the Mighty F-1 engines would not need 90% of the thrust of the real engine to lift the stack. And Cobalt beheld this, and decided it was not good, and added hydrolox tankage to appease the masses, and they rejoiced for their rockets, and were grateful, until they went back to asking for Delta IV and X-20. - A Theatrical History of BDB

Meh, would have been better to downsize the SII and SIVB stages rather than downsize the SIC. Or reduce the % utilization while keeping the dry mass the same and increasing the Isp and thrust of the hydrolox stages. I mean 89% of the mass of a tank is LFO, so that 11% kept at true scaled value wouldn't change much if you balance the rest. To give you an idea...

 

Orbiter is 30% of the mass of the real thing with the OMS being 75% of the thrust. Total mass of the shuttle, ET and SRMs is 35% of the real thing, SSMEs are roughly 60% of the thrust, SRMs are 50% of the thrust. External tank is 65% of the mass, can't remember on the SRMs the mass percent. But it all performs really close to the real thing:

And yes I killed alot of trees working on that thing.