CobaltWolf

[1.8.1][1.7.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.6.2 "титан" 24/Nov/2019)

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Once you go bigger than a Saturn V I always start to wonder what kind of acoustic issues you'd run into.

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2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Once you go bigger than a Saturn V I always start to wonder what kind of acoustic issues you'd run into.

Saturn V was 205 decibels.

C-8 would probably be close to 300 to 350.

For reference 90 is harmful, 140 is almost instant hearing loss.

Of course, ear protection can negate the effect. What can't be negated? The damage to buildings. Apparently sound waves from rockets can damage buildings. So C-8's launch pad would probably have to be out on the beach or even out in water to protect the VAB and Administration buildings. 

For the bigger Nova rockets, they'd probably go Sea Dragon route, tow it out into the ocean and launch from there. Or make an oil rig like platform designed for rocket launches, kind of like that Chinese(?) Rocket launching Ship. 

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2 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Saturn V was 205 decibels.

C-8 would probably be close to 300 to 350.

For reference 90 is harmful, 140 is almost instant hearing loss.

Of course, ear protection can negate the effect. What can't be negated? The damage to buildings. Apparently sound waves from rockets can damage buildings. So C-8's launch pad would probably have to be out on the beach or even out in water to protect the VAB and Administration buildings. 

For the bigger Nova rockets, they'd probably go Sea Dragon route, tow it out into the ocean and launch from there. Or make an oil rig like platform designed for rocket launches, kind of like that Chinese(?) Rocket launching Ship. 

I have solved the problem

6canSOQl.png

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28 minutes ago, Zorg said:

I have solved the problem

6canSOQl.png

Naa, its gotta be around the rocket, not the building! :wink:

rocket-bongos-headphones-bandana.jpg

Edited by Saturn5tony

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4 hours ago, GoldForest said:

For the bigger Nova rockets, they'd probably go Sea Dragon route, tow it out into the ocean and launch from there. Or make an oil rig like platform designed for rocket launches, kind of like that Chinese(?) Rocket launching Ship. 

I think you just exponentially increased the already difficult task of launching a rocket of that scale.

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4 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Saturn V was 205 decibels.

C-8 would probably be close to 300 to 350.

No it wouldn't. The decibel scale is logarythmic. 300dB is a ridiculous value, C-8 would be in the same ballpark as Saturn V, the difference would be a fraction of a decibel. 8 F-1s of the C-8 would put out about 1.6 times more power into the air than 5 F-1s of Saturn V, which at that point of the scale, is less than 1dB. I wouldn't expect other Nova variants to differ significantly as far as decibels go, one dB is a gigantic increase in sound intensity at that point of the scale.

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19 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

No it wouldn't. The decibel scale is logarythmic. 300dB is a ridiculous value, C-8 would be in the same ballpark as Saturn V, the difference would be a fraction of a decibel. 8 F-1s of the C-8 would put out about 1.6 times more power into the air than 5 F-1s of Saturn V, which at that point of the scale, is less than 1dB. I wouldn't expect other Nova variants to differ significantly as far as decibels go, one dB is a gigantic increase in sound intensity at that point of the scale.

Yes very true, if your looking at anything past 280db its the world ending as we know it or close to it!

I would expect massive rockets like the Saturn 5 and such to be anywhere from the high 100's to the low 200's. But really the inverse square law has to apply here. If your 3 miles away from a Saturn 5 its very loud, next to it a 3m, your eardrums are gone assuming you could survive the rocket exhaust.

***************

191dB 1 lb. bomb or grenade at blast epicentre

195dB Human eardrums rupture

202dB Death from sound wave (shock) alone.

210.6dB Earthquake Richter scale equivalent 2.0

213dB Sonic boom generates approximately 1.2 gigawatts power equivalent

215dB Space shuttle launches exhaust, approximately 3 miles per second

215dB Battleship New Jersey firing all 9 sixteen inch guns

216dB Equivalent to a piston engine cylinder with a 9 to 1 compression ratio

235.19dB Earthquake Richter 5.0 or 31,624 tons of TNT

243dB Largest non-nuclear explosion ever, 1947 explosion in pedant u-boat pens used 7100 tons of explosive

248dB Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan, August 6th & 9th, 1945. Total disintegration of 16 square miles, wind was around 300 miles per hour, destroyed 28” thick concrete walls at 1 mile distance. Leaving a crater 633 feet wide and 80 feet deep.

286dB Mt. Saint Helens volcanic eruption

310dB Krakatau volcanic eruption 1883. Cracked one foot thick concrete at 300 miles, created a 3000 foot tidal wave, and heard 3100 miles away, sound pressure caused barometers to fluctuate wildly at 100 miles indicating levels of 190db at that distance from blast site. Rocks thrown to a height of 34 miles.

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Thank you for providing this mod. I'm using it for a KSP 1.7.3 science playthrough using the JNSQ 2.7x planet pack.

My questions are about LH2 boiloff and BDB interaction with Nertea's Cryogenic Engines/Tanks. I am not requesting any fixes; I'm just wondering whether things are working as intended. If there's an issue I'll do more testing and provide a log file.

1) By itself (and its mod dependencies), BDB already provides LH2 engines and LH2 switchable tanks that have boiloff. Boiloff can only be turned off in the BDB settings menu, not through parts upgrades nor electricity consumption. Is that correct default BDB behavior?

2) After installing Cryogenic Engines and its Cryogenic Tanks dependency, it looks like the boiloff on BDB tanks has been modified. When I right click on a tank in flight, it continues to list a boiloff rate, but I'm not seeing LH2 reductions and I think electricity use increased a lot. Would I be correct assuming that BDB includes a ModuleManager patch that recognizes Cryogenic Tanks?

3) When Cryogenic Tanks adds LH2 to other mods' tanks, there is frequently a toggle to enable/disable cooling. I am not getting that button for BDB tanks (I only checked 2 in the Sarnus family); they always seem to be cooling. Should I expect to see a cooling toggle on BDB tanks after installing Cryo Tanks?

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3 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

No it wouldn't. The decibel scale is logarythmic. 300dB is a ridiculous value, C-8 would be in the same ballpark as Saturn V, the difference would be a fraction of a decibel. 8 F-1s of the C-8 would put out about 1.6 times more power into the air than 5 F-1s of Saturn V, which at that point of the scale, is less than 1dB. I wouldn't expect other Nova variants to differ significantly as far as decibels go, one dB is a gigantic increase in sound intensity at that point of the scale.

Now I wonder how many F1s would it take to actually reach 350 dB

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Don't think F-1s could do that. You're way past nuclear weaponry (including the Tsar Bomba) at this point. 310 dB was what the Krakatoa eruption had achieved. That one blew up a large island, and it was still several orders of magnitude (remember, logarythmic) below 350 dB. For that one, you're probably looking at something like the Yellowstone Supervolcano. Or Aldeeran blowing up. It stops really being a sound at way below 300 dB. In fact, this is so huge that you can't even write about it without constantly resorting to emphasis. :) You might be better off submitting a What If to XKCD. 

Edited by Dragon01

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2 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

1) By itself (and its mod dependencies), BDB already provides LH2 engines and LH2 switchable tanks that have boiloff. Boiloff can only be turned off in the BDB settings menu, not through parts upgrades nor electricity consumption. Is that correct default BDB behavior?

This is correct behavior. The BDB dll has basic cryogenic functionality integrated independent of Nertea's work.

 

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1 hour ago, Dragon01 said:

Don't think F-1s could do that. You're way past nuclear weaponry (including the Tsar Bomba) at this point. 310 dB was what the Krakatoa eruption had achieved. That one blew up a large island, and it was still several orders of magnitude (remember, logarythmic) below 350 dB. For that one, you're probably looking at something like the Yellowstone Supervolcano. Or Aldeeran blowing up. It stops really being a sound at way below 300 dB. In fact, this is so huge that you can't even write about it without constantly resorting to emphasis. :) You might be better off submitting a What If to XKCD. 

So I did the math. 25000000000000000 F-1 Engines are how many it takes to produce 350 dB of sound. That reduces to non-lethal (from the sound, as other ramifications of this would wipe out humanity) levels at 2000 miles away from the focal point. Assuming the focal point is Cape Canaveral, 465642559 (give or take a few million) people would die from SOUND ALONE. The other ramifications of this would be catastrophic to say the least. From here on there is no math, just speculation. The ocean in the affected area would likely form massive tsunamis, probably traveling towards Africa and Europe. Earthquakes would rattle the entire globe, killing millions and disrupting infrastructure, causing even more deaths. In summary, don't do this, as humanity would likely go extinct within a decade.

Edited by KerbalKore

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6 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

Thank you for providing this mod. I'm using it for a KSP 1.7.3 science playthrough using the JNSQ 2.7x planet pack.

My questions are about LH2 boiloff and BDB interaction with Nertea's Cryogenic Engines/Tanks. I am not requesting any fixes; I'm just wondering whether things are working as intended. If there's an issue I'll do more testing and provide a log file.

1) By itself (and its mod dependencies), BDB already provides LH2 engines and LH2 switchable tanks that have boiloff. Boiloff can only be turned off in the BDB settings menu, not through parts upgrades nor electricity consumption. Is that correct default BDB behavior?

2) After installing Cryogenic Engines and its Cryogenic Tanks dependency, it looks like the boiloff on BDB tanks has been modified.

3) When Cryogenic Tanks adds LH2 to other mods' tanks, there is frequently a toggle to enable/disable cooling. I am not getting that button for BDB tanks (I only checked 2 in the Sarnus family); they always seem to be cooling. Should I expect to see a cooling toggle on BDB tanks after installing Cryo Tanks?

Just to expand on what @TimothyC already said, BDB's own tank switcher and CryoTanks  do not interact with each other in any way. (at least they shouldn't, I've been using them together for ages)

With respect to boiloff, since BDB focuses mainly on historical rockets it does not have a provision for cryo-cooling. So BDB LH2 tanks are only suitable to send a payload on its way and not for long duration missions. If you would rather not deal with it, you can turn it off but yes there is no in game method for eliminating boil off.

Spoiler

(BDB tanks will actually boil off slower in the shade so you can reduce it to some extent by blocking the sun with a sunshade or putting it inside a payload bay or something)

CryoTanks on the other hand covers use cases that include what can be considered "Near Future" uses such as zero boiloff interplanetary nuclear stages etc. It abstracts the equipment needed for cryo cooling by having a built in cooling function and related EC consumption for the tanks it configures. Tanks that have LH2 in them by default like the CryoTanks own gold foil tanks will have lower EC consumption for cooling and will be turned on by default.

6 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

When I right click on a tank in flight, it continues to list a boiloff rate, but I'm not seeing LH2 reductions and I think electricity use increased a lot.

Not sure what you mean here? If you are talking about a BDB tank, the boiloff will be unchanged and there should be no EC consumption related to BDB tanks.

If you are having further difficulty some screenshots of the situation might be helpful I think.

Edited by Zorg

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On 12/13/2016 at 4:49 PM, CobaltWolf said:

LEM Hab/Lab (living space for 2 kerbs and space to process samples for return)

io52tSf.png

BCdGOaL.png

PBS0DzY.png

Whatever happened to the LEM lab you were working on?

Edited by zakkpaz

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7 hours ago, KerbalKore said:

So I did the math. 25000000000000000 F-1 Engines are how many it takes to produce 350 dB of sound. That reduces to non-lethal (from the sound, as other ramifications of this would wipe out humanity) levels at 2000 miles away from the focal point. Assuming the focal point is Cape Canaveral, 465642559 (give or take a few million) people would die from SOUND ALONE. The other ramifications of this would be catastrophic to say the least. From here on there is no math, just speculation. The ocean in the affected area would likely form massive tsunamis, probably traveling towards Africa and Europe. Earthquakes would rattle the entire globe, killing millions and disrupting infrastructure, causing even more deaths. In summary, don't do this, as humanity would likely go extinct within a decade.

I did some more maths and fortunately, we're not in danger. :) The F-1 has a diameter of about 3.7m. The number of F-1s you gave would have a total nozzle area of about 2.72*10^17 square meters. We don't even have to consider packing inefficiency, as Earth's entire surface area is about 5.1*10^14. So yeah, you can't do that with F-1s, because they wouldn't fit on the planet, let alone Cape Canaveral. Also, given they won't be a point source anymore, but spread out, you still won't get 350 dB. Never underestimate big numbers.

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You just need to put them in the middle of a forest where there's nobody around and they won't make any noise at all, just like falling trees.

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16 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

Thank you for providing this mod. I'm using it for a KSP 1.7.3 science playthrough using the JNSQ 2.7x planet pack.

My questions are about LH2 boiloff and BDB interaction with Nertea's Cryogenic Engines/Tanks. I am not requesting any fixes; I'm just wondering whether things are working as intended. If there's an issue I'll do more testing and provide a log file.

1) By itself (and its mod dependencies), BDB already provides LH2 engines and LH2 switchable tanks that have boiloff. Boiloff can only be turned off in the BDB settings menu, not through parts upgrades nor electricity consumption. Is that correct default BDB behavior?

2) After installing Cryogenic Engines and its Cryogenic Tanks dependency, it looks like the boiloff on BDB tanks has been modified. When I right click on a tank in flight, it continues to list a boiloff rate, but I'm not seeing LH2 reductions and I think electricity use increased a lot. Would I be correct assuming that BDB includes a ModuleManager patch that recognizes Cryogenic Tanks?

3) When Cryogenic Tanks adds LH2 to other mods' tanks, there is frequently a toggle to enable/disable cooling. I am not getting that button for BDB tanks (I only checked 2 in the Sarnus family); they always seem to be cooling. Should I expect to see a cooling toggle on BDB tanks after installing Cryo Tanks?

To continue responding, more just to add context.

Yes, BDB uses a fork of Cryogenic Engines. Or it might have been coded independently for all I know. I don't code; that's stuff done by @Jso who has been having some IRL stuff go on for the last half a year or so. So I don't know too much about it. At the time, it made sense because we didn't want to have Cryogenic Engines / Tanks as a dependency. That meant that the functionality diverged a bit over time. I think I've spoken with Nertea before about externalizing Cryo Engines/Tanks functionality to a mutual dependency and adding more features like being able to use shades in depots, etc. But I don't think they went anywhere since we both were/are busy with other projects.

As far as I know, the boiloff shouldn't be toggleable in the BDB tanks so any vestigial functionality getting patched on by CryoTanks would cause issues.

I'd always planned on adding solutions for active cooling / active boiloff management to BDB (IVF systems, sun shade, heat pumps + radiators for replicating Ares from Voyage) but I've just never gotten around to them. So there currently isn't any way to manage boiloff for the BDB tanks, at least that I know of. However, like Zorg said, I don't think there's any tanks in BDB that would represent anything that could actively manage boiloff. They're all, relatively speaking, old tech that would predate active management.

 

7 hours ago, zakkpaz said:

Whatever happened to the LEM lab you were working on?

It never got finished, I decided I wanted to redo the LM from scratch before adding on to it, partially because the models and textures weren't set up very well for variants.

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I am at a bit of a crossroads for what I can work on next. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. This is all stuff that I'm intending to do for this update one way or the other.

Some notes -

  • Corona would primarily focus on getting the return capsule and the associated hardware done. Might include getting the cameras done, I'm still not 100% committed to doing them. Probably also includes Biosat.
  • I should have probably added an option for "weird Agena stuff"
  • Mariner 10 and Pioneer Venus would both be larger scale payloads - they launched on Atlas Centaur in real life.
  • OGO, Lunar Orbiter, most of Redstone, and most of the remaining Agena stuff are all modeled already.
  • Redstone would include Juno 1 / Jupiter C / Explorer 1 / Sergeant clusters
  • Nimbus would probably also include TIROS
  • Juno would include Explorer 7, possibly also some of its other payloads. Pioneer 1 and 4 probably need to get redone as well.

https://www.strawpoll.me/19037142

Edited by CobaltWolf

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@TimothyC, @Zorg, @CobaltWolf

Thanks for clarifying how BDB boiloff works. I thought I saw something different after installing Cryo Engines with BDB but I can't replicate it. If I think I find another case of a BDB tank not boiling off in sunlight I'll do a quicksave, backup my logfile, and share it here.

The most likely explanation is a faulty observation on my part. Maybe my tank was temporarily shadowed so boiloff was paused.

Edited by DeadJohn
typo

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19 minutes ago, Jebihean Kerman said:

KSP i will be updated tomorrow so be ready beale to update the mod into 1.9

 

This post is confusing me in so many ways

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9 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I should have probably added an option for "weird Agena stuff"

I am pretty sure you know me well enough to know I am going to say this:  Hmmm, that sounds interesting?  What Weird Agena stuff are you thinking about making??????
If you are open to suggestions:   an Agena sized KLAW so I can de-orbit junk from space on the cheap.

Edited by Pappystein
Suggestion

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2 hours ago, Jebihean Kerman said:

KSP i will be updated tomorrow so be ready beale to update the mod into 1.9

 

KSP 1.9 won't be out for months. 

Also, wrong thread. This isn't @Beale's thread, this is @CobaltWolf's thread.

 

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Well, since Redstone kinda ran away with it... sure.

piZrm9l.png
ZX9wJiK.png"
XdF1iKK.png
7FOo8Lc.png

 

The current Redstone engine is likely the oldest part in the mod, essentially unchanged since September 2015.

BkitwQg.png

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Cobalt... Love the Airfoil for the Redstone!  


That style of Airfoil was also used on Some of the "advanced" A-4 Variants.  I THINK the Wasserfall SAM, and the latter A-x variants that were A-4 size...   Since Redstone is the DIRECT US "improved" A-4 it is not surprising that it would use the same Airfoil.  

 

Also love the SHAMELESS plug!    Rocket BD....   :P

 

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