CobaltWolf

[1.8.1][1.7.3] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.6.2 "титан" 24/Nov/2019)

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15 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

A suggestion, if I may: any chance of Centaur Jr.?

This one:

As you see, it has the same diameter as Thor\Delta. Would be a nice option for LTT...

11 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Unless he changes his mind, Cobalt said it was HOSS for Delta or Centaur Jr as they almost fill the exact same role.   He built HOSS a month or so ago....   I THINK...  Checks game directory..

Yep HOSS Engine mount,  HOSS Avionics and HOSS tank are in the game (* at-least in the DEV version.)   HOSS and Centaur have similar rolls but HOSS dispenses with expensive things like....  INSULATION....THICK WALLs,.... SPACES between the Tanks..... etc To make a cheap High Energy Upper stage. 

ALSO please note that those Atlas Fs were never built.  Those are the Super Stretched Atlas F ICBM that was designed to take a Thermonuclear Warhead....  With H-2 engines!     I think you end up using 2 of the Long tanks and one of the Short tanks to make that tank structure.. AKA it is slightly longer than Atlas III (going from memory and suffering from a LOSS induced migraine as I type this so if the part count or length are wrong sorry!)     I did put a Patch for the H-1 engine (upscaling the model a bit) to make the H-2 in the Pafftek folder under BDB Extras for this rocket.   However this Rocket can ALMOST fly equally well with the final RS-56 engines and 4 Castor IVAs just like the Atlas IIAS/Atlas III. 

4 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Note, Centaur also uses a common bulkhead, a balloon tank and you can't dispense with insulation on an LH2 stage because air will condense on it (a very bad thing). HOSS is, essentially, a smaller Centaur, or a H-1 (Japanese Delta derivative) upper stage.

When I said "things on my mind right now" it was specifically stuff that was in the immediate pipeline, or at least stuff that I wanted to look into, this week. Of course... this week has actually been kind of disappointing. I used my remaining vacation days to take the whole week off and barely got to spend any time in front of my PC, and when I did get a chance to work it wasn't as productive as I would have liked...

Anyways, Centaur revamp is likely going to happen *at some point* during this dev cycle (oh god this update is going to be like 300 parts) because I want to redo Vega since  I redid Ranger and am redoing Juno IV, and it doesn't really make sense to redo Vega without redoing Centaur. So yeah. Just, not an immediate priority. I did already model a new RL-10... but I can't for the life of me find the pics of it.

RE: HOSS/ Centaur Jr. - the big issue is, if I remember, HOSS is already a balloon tank in terms of part balance in the mod. I think the cryogenic tanks in BDB are all at or approaching balloon tank mass ratios for whatever reason. If I remember. If that is the case, I'm not sure what to do. But I do have Centaur Jr. and a couple other things on a list to look into. RE: insulation, the NTRS document that covers HOSS has a good rundown:

qmSp0H0.png

By the way, @Pappystein I also mocked up an H-2 engine cobbled together out of H-1 and J-2S bits (since it was a tapoff cycle). It looks... fine? But I'm not sure if I should add it since the performance on it feels... unbalanced, as in I'm not sure they would be able to reach the numbers they said it could. It's something like 150% the thrust of an H-1 in an H-1 thrust chamber.

eZBJEZ3.pngGvqWncK.png

H-2 on left, H-1 on right.

jCV9GBq.png

 

 

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1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

By the way, @Pappystein I also mocked up an H-2 engine cobbled together out of H-1 and J-2S bits (since it was a tapoff cycle). It looks... fine? But I'm not sure if I should add it since the performance on it feels... unbalanced, as in I'm not sure they would be able to reach the numbers they said it could. It's something like 150% the thrust of an H-1 in an H-1 thrust chamber.

I like the H-2. :) Maybe not 150%, but I'm pretty sure some growth would be possible with the design, especially if we're considering early H-1s.

BTW, with all those updates, I really hope . The only thing more amazing than the current Atlas would be the current Atlas with a shiny PBR texture. :) 

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9 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

By the way, @Pappystein I also mocked up an H-2 engine cobbled together out of H-1 and J-2S bits (since it was a tapoff cycle). It looks... fine? But I'm not sure if I should add it since the performance on it feels... unbalanced, as in I'm not sure they would be able to reach the numbers they said it could. It's something like 150% the thrust of an H-1 in an H-1 thrust chamber.

 

H-2 on left, H-1 on right.

jCV9GBq.png

 

 

I never want to be one to put words in your mouth Cobalt.   So IF you do a Centaur JR Cool.  I was just re-iterating your previous statements on the Subject.

I love the H2 mockup.   I doubt the actual engine would have the Difuser on the turbo-pump exhaust as the engine was Air Froce and not NASA....  My concern being the Atlas Booster skirt... the Rotation would have be me such that none of those parts (the Turbopump or it's exhaust) penetrates the Atlas Booster skirt.   the Rescale H-1 engine in the extras folder has to be rotated 17 points I think to hide both the Turbopumps and their exhaust IIRC. )    I don't think I can get that thrust ring to disappear at all at my rescaled size... You would have to check yourself to see what I am talking about.    I have thought about rescaling the newer LR89 instead of the H-1 engine (basically using the Grandparent engine instead of the Parent engine) to avoid this issue.

 

  But anyway...   I didn't think that would ever make a list... so Dayum!   NICE!

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14 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Note, Centaur also uses a common bulkhead, a balloon tank and you can't dispense with insulation on an LH2 stage because air will condense on it (a very bad thing). HOSS is, essentially, a smaller Centaur, or a H-1 (Japanese Delta derivative) upper stage.

Dragon, while that is true, HOSS was to have a lot less than Centaur.  I was trying to highlight the differences by using Hyperbole.  Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

 

12 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

Stumbled upon a C-class 160-ton asteroid on Kerbin orbit (135900km x 7010km x 32 degrees inclination*) while being at level 1 R&D (I often refrain from upgrading it in order to force myself to use "old" stuff).

Many Transtages sacrificed their lives to bring it to more "manageable" orbit, and even more will, since the damn thing is so heavy.

I hope People for Ethical Treatment of Transtages won't read this. Because I doubt they'll like putting Vega tanks as extenders.

 

EDIT: Okay, I admit I've "cheated" a bit - I've unlocked the Klaw. Without it, all I can do is bump the Transtage into the rock and try to push it into some direction. I'm not that cruel. Transtages have rights too, okay?

 

as a member of PEToT... I shake my fist at you!   :P     As a person who has had a Type A caught in a highly eliptical Oribit in a 2.7x playthrough (your C far out masses my capture...)   I have to ask, how did you find it prior to unlocking lvl 3 of Space tracking station?

Sadly there is no separate Transtage tank in BDB anymore...  and since I will not stack non Hypergolic Tanks on Hypergolic tanks so that leaves me either using an Agena Tank as a booster tank or putting the too large and too heavy Titan tanks on Transtage....      However when Cobalt gets to making SOT tanks (Drop tanks) for Agena, I will have another way to enhance the range of Transtage... and a Use for that big Titan IV fairing! :)  I figure 8 or 10 SOTs  (1.5 x2 tanks being about equal to an Agena B/D Fuel Load.... well 8 it slightly LESS than adding 3 Agena D Fuel tanks to my Transtage... and 10 is adding slightly MORE fuel than 3 Agena Ds to Transtage!)    *MATHS done in my head after just waking up from a much needed nap  A pair of SOT tanks carries about 70% the fuel and Oxidizer that an Agena B/D Tank carries.*

 

What I find myself wishing for more and more is an Agena Nosecone shaped KLAW at 0.9375....  Yep so I can put it on Agena.   Think about it.  It is far cheaper and far more delta V to launch 2 or 3 Agena Stages to a large Asteroid than it is the Transtage solution you are attempting Biohazzard.   And now that we have some of the hardware from Ascent Agena on file... (LR81-BA-8096 engines!) We gain the ability to further separate the Agena as a premier Asteroid... Junked out space craft, Jeb, whatever retriever!   And in the future (if they still exist on the roadmap for this update)  SOT tanks!

TBC I am actually Running Aerozine 50 in my Titans and Transtage and I once I get time to fly the latest versions I will be doing the new Agena parts as well (proper fuel).     An All up Titan II with Gemini capsule is about 2.5x the cost of the stock BDB one due to the different cost for AZ-50 and NTO... and it looses slightly in the performance figures.   Lets just say there have been a few launches where I really did want to answer YES! when Leia asks if she should get out and push!

 

 

 

 

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So, question.  I have just come upon an ABMA unclassified document from 1960 that mentions a H2 + O2  aka Hydrolox "Advanced Atlas Vega"   It was specifically canceled in favor Atlas Agena and Atlas Centaur.      Anyone seen or heard of this before?

 

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730064135.pdf

Literally it is on preface page ii or you can search for the term "Vega" in your pdf browser.

 

Edited by Pappystein

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7 hours ago, Pappystein said:

how did you find it prior to unlocking lvl 3 of Space tracking station?

Normally I unlock all the buildings except R&D (which I also unlock eventually) :)

8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

What I find myself wishing for more and more is an Agena Nosecone shaped KLAW at 0.9375

Same here. There's adapters, of course, but such setup looks... wrong. I don't know why, but it's just wrong (Not to mention certain, errr, anatomical similarities :D)

My current setup - MOS docking port, Gemini service module (the standard one), RCS blocks, 1.5-1.25 adapter, some batteries and Klaw. This allows me to easily replace spent Transtages (and later, dock a space station to it instead of flying in a new Klaw module).

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22 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Time to jerry rig a KH-9

KH-9_HEXAGON_satellite.jpg

While it isn't "RIGHT"  Take an Agena 8096 engine,  the smallest 1.875m titan fuel tank with the MOL GCU (avionics) and then build your camera build  from there.  

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IMP (left) and AIMP

P6wyLgC.png

First off.  NICE

Second off.  I reaserched these today... VERY NICE.  

Now the questions (I always have those!)

1) Solar Panels.  Are they going to be tracking or cocked on the 45 like the engineering models?

2) Science Experiments.   Are we going to see Solar Wind OR Solar Radation experiments?

3) And last Question.     Is there any other special equipment needed to launch either of these beauties?

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So, question.  I have just come upon an ABMA unclassified document from 1960 that mentions a H2 + O2  aka Hydrolox "Advanced Atlas Vega"   It was specifically canceled in favor Atlas Agena and Atlas Centaur.      Anyone seen or heard of this before?

So I may have found my own answer on this.    I searched NTRS for "Advanced Vega" and started at the earliest document NOT about the Lockheed Vega Aircraft (and I saved those for future reading)    It turns out VEGA was a Jet Propulsion Laboratory Program and not a Convair run program.   When Centaur was ordered the onus was on Convair to get their New Modified Atlas out on the launch pad early to launch satellites to help pay for the research into Hydrolox Stage based on Atlas (AKA Centaur.)    A Lot of you probably know at-least some of that.   It turns out that JPL is likely the BIGGEST reason that the Vega program was scrubbed... and Not Agena as was previously thought.   The document I just downloaded from the NASA servers created by JPL cites repeatedly that they would use the control Bus from the Hypergolic "6K" 3rd stage for all Vega flights.   This control bus is a Tiny DIRECT Radio control module and requires constant signal from the ground.     Cobalt Likely has the numbers closeer at hand than I do but it looks like the Maximum Payload diameter at KSP scale would have been on the order of 0.5m max.   OR LESS!  

The 6K avionics also needs to be directly attached to the Payload....  This creates a "Payload Penalty" (My term) that prevents large Satellites from launching on Vega (Diameter of payload AND weight of payload)   Had JPL either scrapped the 6K stage or moved on to better/different/larger guidance principals... Vega might have actually flown... And possibly still be in use in some form today.   

Now to the advanced Vega Referenced in my original post above....   The JPL Document Cites something for the GE-405H Engine that I was unaware of.  The Turbine is actually powered by H2O2+RP-1.   This document mentions briefly that General Electric was also developing a Hydrogen Peroxide Oxidized version of the GE-405 Rocket engine.   By switching to H2O2 a "significant" weight reduction, as well as the ability to restart the GE-405 could be integrated (basically all the Spherical Balls on the bottom of the Vega stage could be removed...   But like most H2O2 oxidized engines special handling equipment on the ground would be required.   Since "...at the 80% level... Hydrogen Peroxide can dissolve a person very VERY quickly..."   Sorry had to quote one of my Chemistry Teachers from years back on that one...

So Advanced Vega could have been a HTP+RP-1 powered stage and that fuel combo is actually considered a Short to medium time length Store-able fuel.   HTP+RP1 can remain in a rocket for immediate use for several weeks (some sources say 1 or more instead of several.)   Something Liquid Oxygen can not do.   Of-course Hydrogen Peroxide is very hypergolic at that level.   And the Rocket would have to be maintained in Clean Room level of cleanliness.   Oh and lets not talk about the special coatings for inside the Vega oxidizer tank to prevent Hydrogen Peroxide from reacting with the Tank walls...  

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10 hours ago, Pappystein said:

1) Solar Panels.  Are they going to be tracking or cocked on the 45 like the engineering models?

2) Science Experiments.   Are we going to see Solar Wind OR Solar Radation experiments?

3) And last Question.     Is there any other special equipment needed to launch either of these beauties?

I think I'll let them be tracking, otherwise it's going to be difficult to get consistent solar coverage.

I'm not sure about experiments, we need some more stuff for measuring solar conditions.

I'm not sure what you mean, I don't think they require like any more new parts or anything.

 

TAT / Agena-D with a KH-4B Corona

TXQtMcb.png
dG99boB.png
fa3kWJW.png
pXsRguZ.png

 

 

WIP Juno II
ZlGzXDb.png

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WIP textures of the JPL 6K and 45K engines for Juno IV

dQ3msiC.png

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Some more parts - adapters for Carrack from Eyes Turned Skywards!

dHweJ3I.png
ZO1l7Zx.png
mzTf3ot.png
TiLKxH1.png
c5Oj90b.png
7PftaEO.png

 

Carrack-H with the wide fairing base

je97DNJ.png

 

In Eyes, the Commercial Titan 3 captures the market that Ariane did in real life. They use an encapsulated Agena as the upper stage - the long version of the black adapter is ideal for this. :)

IRzPz4T.png
HcMkHr4.png

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WIP payloads for Juno II (and Pioneer 1 just cus it has to get redone at some point...)

NwCUsl5.png

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Posted (edited)

Think you could adjust the Explorer 1 color scheme? I found a nice color photo of the actual flight article:
Explorer_1_During_the_Installation_to_Ju
It was sandblasted stainless steel with white stripes. It seems many other color schemes were studied, including the while and blue one (also blue and copper, blue and green...). It was, like on early Pioneers, a means of thermal control.

Edited by Dragon01

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6 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

WIP payloads for Juno II (and Pioneer 1 just cus it has to get redone at some point...)

NwCUsl5.png

It's always nice to see new probes, thanks for these.

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21 minutes ago, Cedric Feldmann - Bear said:

So I tried doing an Apollo Mission without the Saturn V and I found it easier to just use a version of the Saturn Multibody with four SRBs or just to use two Titan III’s.

If you're into (somewhat) non-canonical and non-ETS builds, I strongly recommend Titan LDC. A proper build can lift a full Mun mission (CSM+LEM+LEM adapter+"super-Transtage" that can boost all that to the Mun in 2.5x system) to 120x120 orbit, with some dV to spare. And if you're into career, you'll save at least 100K(!!!) of funds.

Saturn V? What Saturn V? We're into Titans here, buddy. I love the smell of hydrazine in the morning.

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29 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

If you're into (somewhat) non-canonical and non-ETS builds, I strongly recommend Titan LDC. A proper build can lift a full Mun mission (CSM+LEM+LEM adapter+"super-Transtage" that can boost all that to the Mun in 2.5x system) to 120x120 orbit, with some dV to spare. And if you're into career, you'll save at least 100K(!!!) of funds.

Saturn V? What Saturn V? We're into Titans here, buddy. I love the smell of hydrazine in the morning.

Yep, supprised NASA didn’t go for a low cost Skylab based program using the Titan III’s.

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3 hours ago, Cedric Feldmann - Bear said:

So I tried doing an Apollo Mission without the Saturn V and I found it easier to just use a version of the Saturn Multibody with four SRBs or just to use two Titan III’s.

3 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

If you're into (somewhat) non-canonical and non-ETS builds, I strongly recommend Titan LDC. A proper build can lift a full Mun mission (CSM+LEM+LEM adapter+"super-Transtage" that can boost all that to the Mun in 2.5x system) to 120x120 orbit, with some dV to spare. And if you're into career, you'll save at least 100K(!!!) of funds.

Saturn V? What Saturn V? We're into Titans here, buddy. I love the smell of hydrazine in the morning.

2 hours ago, Cedric Feldmann - Bear said:

Yep, supprised NASA didn’t go for a low cost Skylab based program using the Titan III’s.

2 hours ago, The Dressian Exploder said:

*Wonders whether to laugh or cry in MOL*

I'd offer that the cost balancing in the mod, as much as we try, isn't very representative of real life (if only because finding the information, and trying to tie it to individual parts, is difficult).

IRL there was a lot of reasons to not use Titan - it was an Air Force rocket and not a NASA rocket, for one. Air Force didn't want to pay for crew-rated rockets and the like, and there would have been a lot of not-invented-here in NASA. Skylab was only ever going to be a stopgap program - why would you design an entirely new architecture when you're already deep into developing a bad one (the Shuttle). As for using it for the Moon... it's a lot easier to launch one vehicle than two, or three, or however many you'd need - Titan 3, even Titan 3M, would take more than two launches to launch a lunar complex with the capability of Apollo - and the Apollo architecture wasn't particularly capable to begin with past just getting two guys there and back. 

Now, of course - there's a grain of truth there. Part of what killed Apollo is that it didn't scale well and was relatively easy to kill off due to its sortie-based infrastructure (I'm probably not explaining this well). Something based around smaller LVs, and yes, something that shared infrastructure costs between NASA and the USAF, would have likely been more sustainable. That's the problem with Apollo being designed to land on the moon as the end goal, and not designed for long term exploration. But at that point you're into the world of pure fiction, or at least, the changes would have to occur in the very early 60s - and even then, the Saturn 1 is already flying... My point is, as fun as Titan based architectures are fun to play with from an engineering POV, IRL there are a lot of reasons why they didn't happen, and trying to come up with how to make them possible would likely wind up being outside the realm of what is believable. With that said... that's what BDB is for :)

Also, re: hydrazine, I went out of my way to make sure the Titans could be converted back to kerolox. Made me happier to use them. :)If people are using the LDC parts I'd love to see what you're building with them - I haven't seen those parts a lot since I released them. In general I'd love to see more pics of people's stuff here on the thread. Keeps me inspired lol.

18 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Think you could adjust the Explorer 1 color scheme? I found a nice color photo of the actual flight article:

It was sandblasted stainless steel with white stripes. It seems many other color schemes were studied, including the while and blue one (also blue and copper, blue and green...). It was, like on early Pioneers, a means of thermal control.

I like the color it is now. I decided that photo had a pretty warm tint to it when I saw it.

 

12 hours ago, reviest said:

It's always nice to see new probes, thanks for these.

Glad people are looking forward to them. My general idea is that there will be a lot of... I guess "less legoable" stuff in the early game (and I'm assuming people will find a way to drastically reduce/rebalance science on their end, it's kind of outside what I can do in the scope of BDB) but part count is an issue anyways. And those early probes will give you "tastes" of a lot of experiments to get you going, but most of the science will have to be collected later with better experiments... we'll see how it goes.

I really with there was a way to make experiments only work on the home body. @DMagic is there any way that could be added to DMagic Science Animate or something?

 

 

Closer look at Pioneer 1 and 4
13WGOXZ.png

 

S-45, Explorer 8, and Explorer 7.

The two S-45 payloads were both lost in Juno II launch failures. The first would have been Explorer 10 had it reached orbit. Perhaps time for some redemption? :)

nrBN93F.png

 

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27 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

If people are using the LDC parts I'd love to see what you're building with them

All I've really been using is a tweakscaled one:
screenshot109.png
Quite litterally just a carbon copy of a Minerva 20 launcher from Kolymas shadow.

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